Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

Statements Lavrov in Geneva shortly. From that live:

I just copied the same above in my last message hahaha but yeah, if all parts keep to their word that's a good step.

[akm74 1]

Will be interesting to see how Kiev will "disarm and disband" right sector and other f-heads on the west (they have zero control over). Because if they don't...

[Tonci87 163]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp0PWQKG7o4

Kramatorsk, soldier opened fire at the side of protesters who tried to stop advancing column. Several protesters were wounded, some civil cars were slightly damaged by bullets.

I don´t believe that someonewas shot, otherwise the russian cameraman would have made sure to get footage of that. Sometimes you have to consider what you don´t see in a news report.

[mistyronin 1181]

It seems that for now no change in the "frontlines".

Armed men took over a television tower in eastern Ukraine on Thursday and switched it to Russian channels playing an almost non-stop stream of sound-bites from a marathon TV phone-in by Russian President Vladimir Putin, Reuters reports:

Employees at the tower said the men, who were armed with Kalashnikov rifles, barged in after arriving in cars and frightening off guards by firing a shot.

TV engineers accompanying the men then took Ukrainian channels off the air and replaced them with five Russian channels.

The channels included Russia 1, Russia 24 and ORT - some of the most popular state-controlled channels - which were broadcasting clips of Putin's TV phone-in.

"I was at my desk and heard a shot fired outside. Then men, armed and wearing masks, came in. They had technicians with them and switched channels," said Tetyana Chernogod, an electrical mechanic who works at the station.

"We pressed alarm buttons when they came in, but nobody responded. I have been seeing Putin all day since," she said.

Three TV screens were broadcasting clips from Putin's phone-in when this correspondent went to the tower's master control room. Two armed men guarded the entrance.

[spooky lynx 73]

It seems that the Pro-Russian Government in Donetsk is asking jews to register.

( Think Progress ) Someone Is Ordering Eastern Ukraine’s Jews To ‘Register’

Fake. Denis Pushilin is not named "people's governor".

[arttem 1]

Neil Clark (theguardian/uk)

He wrote an article, but in his personal blog. :)

"I'm confused, can anyone help me?"

http://www.neilclark66.blogspot.ru

http://rt.com/op-edge/west-leaders-ukraine-democracy-600/

For Rus speakers.

http://russian.rt.com/inotv/2014-04-17/Britanskij-zhurnalist-YA-sbit-s

[mistyronin 1181]

If someone wants to read the the official agreement of Geneva on Ukraine

Fake. Denis Pushilin is not named "people's governor".

There are different sources that seem to give some credit to that document, hope it will be investigated, as are strong allegations.

[arttem 1]

There are different sources that seem to give some credit to that document, hope it will be investigated, as are strong allegations.

Look, MistyRonin. Such leaflets is always a problem. I mean to check. I can show for example such leaflets. (left from Egypt, right from Maidan)

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/fritzmorgen/12791732/58996/58996_900.png (444 kB)

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread987691/pg1

But i'm try not to post such things cause it's hard to check.

Edited April 17, 2014 by ArtTem

[mistyronin 1181]

But i'm try not to post such things cause it's hard to check.

Well 99% of the information on Ukraine is hard to check, that's why I just publish the raw information, link & image and source ( if it's possible different sources ). Mainly I try to stick to reliable media.

I think we are all mature enough to judge if we believe it or not, and in which degree :)

[akm74 1]

You actually posting "raw information, link & image" with your personal "correction" or moving some "key" words around. Like:

It seems that the Pro-Russian Government in Donetsk is asking jews to register.

( Think Progress ) Someone Is Ordering Eastern Ukraine’s Jews To ‘Register’

Please avoid this tactics in the future...:)

[mistyronin 1181]

You actually posting "raw information, link & image" with your personal "correction" or moving some "key" words around.

Please avoid this tactics in the future...:)

Have you read the article and seen the image? Isn't it the Pro-Russian flag? Have I moved any words from the headline or the text?

In fact I stressed ( bolded ) the word seems, to remark that it's not clear if it's true or not. If that for you is a 'tactic'... I'm afraid you are a bit apprehensive.

Edited April 17, 2014 by MistyRonin

[akm74 1]

Have I moved any words from the headline or the text?

Yes you did. I just highlighted this part for you. Do you want me to change color to green ? :p

If someone wants to read thethe official agreement of Geneva on Ukraine

I'm more interested in what they agree on after they ask this Ukrainian guy to "wait outside"

Edited April 17, 2014 by AKM74

[mistyronin 1181]

Yes you did. I just highlighted this part for you. Do you want me to change color to green ? :p

I'm more interested in what they agree on after they ask this Ukrainian guy to "wait outside"

I'm sorry, but your last post doesn't make any sense to me, I just posted the link to the join agreement because it's IMO an important piece of news, if you are not interested you can ignore it and post the news you think are better.

In any case I don't get why you get personal on me and derailing the thread. If you think I'm not following the rules of the forum you can message the moderators, if you have any personal remarks that's why the private messages are for. For the rest lets keep at linking news and commenting them.

[mistyronin 1181]

( Yle, english ) Foreign Minister: Finland not dependent on Russian gas

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Thursday mentioned Finland as a Western European country he considers dependent on Russian natural gas supplies. Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja says that Putin's evaluation of energy dependence is not particular apt in Finland's case.

( The New York Times ) Putin Asserts Right to Use Force in Eastern Ukraine

President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia emphasized on Thursday that the upper chamber of Parliament had authorized him to use military force if necessary in eastern Ukraine, and he asserted Russia’s historical claim to the territory in language not often used before, signaling a new and more aggressive policy.

Mr. Putin repeatedly referred to eastern Ukraine as “New Russia†— as the area north of the Black Sea was known after it was conquered by the Russian Empire in the late 1700s. He said only “God knows†why it became part of Ukraine in 1920.

Speaking in a televised question-and-answer show, Mr. Putin also admitted for the first time that Russian armed forces had been deployed in Crimea, the disputed peninsula Russia annexed last month immediately after a large majority of the population voted in a referendum to secede from Ukraine. But he dismissed suggestions that Russian troops were behind the unrest in eastern Ukraine.

[spooky lynx 73]

There are different sources that seem to give some credit to that document, hope it will be investigated, as are strong allegations.

And some sources claim it's pure fake made by people of Boris Filatov, affiliated with oligarch Kolomoisky.

[arttem 1]

Well it would be very nice if someone finds a source where they translate questions and his answers.

http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/7034

http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/7036

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) East Ukraine militants snub Geneva deal on crisis

Pro-Russian separatists in Donetsk say they will not leave the government building there, defying the Kiev authorities and threatening a new international deal on Ukraine.

The separatists' spokesman told the BBC that the Kiev government was "illegal", so they would not go until the Kiev government stepped down.

Russia, Ukraine, the EU and US earlier agreed that illegal military groups in Ukraine must leave official buildings.

They reached the deal in Geneva.

Alexander Gnezdilov, spokesman for the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, said his group would evacuate the government building in the eastern city only when the "illegal" Kiev government vacated parliament and the presidential administration.

A tense standoff continues in eastern Ukraine, where pro-Russian separatists - many of them armed - are occupying official buildings in at least nine cities and towns.

On Friday there were reports of some shooting in Serhiyivka, in Donetsk region.

Ukrainian paratroopers opened fire to remove a protesters' roadblock in Serhiyivka, Interfax-Ukraine reported, quoting local sources. The details have not been confirmed.

- - - - - - - - - -

And some sources claim it's pure fake made by people of Boris Filatov, affiliated with oligarch Kolomoisky.

Could perfectly be, that's why IMO should be investigated.

Edited April 18, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Rydygier 1309]

Mr. Putin repeatedly referred to eastern Ukraine as “New Russia†— as the area north of the Black Sea was known after it was conquered by the Russian Empire in the late 1700s.

Yes, that's interesting topic by itself, and mentality pretty close to the core of the conflict. To define, what is rightfully whose. If some kingdom conquered some land in the middle ages and now country built on that kingdom claims that land as own, no one, if reasonable, will oppose. But 1700? Not so much clear really. It wasn't conquered as some ungoverned, empty land. It was taken by force from another country. If now Putins says, basing on that event, so this land is rightfuly his, he admits, what is sad true in the effect BTW, so the final law is the ability to enforce own will over will of the others. Of course we could multiply arguments and dooubts in both directions, and this is the point. Such approach is by definition fluid and hazy, it always ends on some not common, contractual agreement (or lack of such), not defining any objective truth, so convenient way for someone, who try to justify something not just.

It is also quite ironical, to hear from Russia, knowing its past policy, from tsars times and USSR, and later, about rights to the territory and defending freedom of anyone. Russia isn't USSR? Yeah, but people's mentality does not change so easily, as name of the country or its oficial polity. And mentality is crucial. When I observe, how Russia acts, what kind of arguments it uses, it is obvious for me, that Soviet and especially agressive, imperial mentaility is very alive and doing well in modern Russia.

Conclusion: whole such way of thinking/justifying is missing the point, is wrong. Point is not who has such "defined" "rights" to something, but what is best for the people, all together and each individually. Question is, if Putin's activities on Ukraine, his warmongering, brings good for the people out there and not only there, or on the contrary. Is he after good of any people, or rather only after own ambitions, dreams about restoring the power etc. crap. IMO, external undermining of status quo as for boundaries of another country is nearly certain way to achieve suffering, chaos and bloodshed. It is also always risk of war. Thus it is wrong.

Let's look at Poland as another example. Compare boundaries of this country from before WW2 and after Jalta. Consider, would be right thing (good for people) now to restore old, pre-war boundaries? What consequences could be forseen? Such thing is happening on Ukraine now due to Russia's too long and too restless hands.

So yes, it is very harmful precedent, the mentaility, Putin presents to justify his aggressive stance. And the wrong thing by its own too. And not surprising, sadly. Also this is not surprising a bit:

Putin changing his story about the Crimea

- Behind the self-defense forces were our soldiers - said Putin. Not so long ago, in a TV interview said exactly what else, proving that the uniforms, which appeared armed supporters of secession of the Crimea from Ukraine, "you can buy in the store."

- It was a well-organized non precedents action. Russia could not do otherwise - explained today, demanding "respect the choice of the inhabitants of the Crimea" by Ukraine.

In this context, sounded unconvincing uttered in all seriousness ensure the President that in the east of Ukraine "there are no Russian troops or special forces."

As we can read, Putin himself admits, he was lying and in the same time is justifying these lies. This man and any of his words is not worthy of any trust by this fact. Few months ago was defended so hard thesis, that turned to be a lie. So why Putin's statements are still treated as trustworthy and worthy of quoting here?

Edited April 18, 2014 by Rydygier

[mistyronin 1181]

Yes, that's interesting topic by itself, and mentality pretty close to the core of the conflict. To define, what is rightfully whose. If some kingdom conquered some land in the middle ages and now country built on that kingdom claims that land as own, no one, if reasonable, will oppose. But 1700? Not so much clear really. It wasn't conquered as some ungoverned, empty land. It was taken by force from another country. If now Putins says, basing on that evet, so this lant is rightfuly his, he admits, what is sad true in the effect BTW, so the final law is the ability to enforce own will over will of the others.

The funny fact is that with the same arguments Russia could also claim Finland: was invaded in 1809 ( which at that time was part of Sweden ), later they tried to "Russificate" it, and later Finland declared it's independence in 1917.

As we can read, Putin himself admits, he was lying and in the same time is justifying these lies. This man and any of his words is not worthy of any trust by this fact. Few months ago was defended so hard thesis, that turned to be a lie. So why Putin's statements are still treated as trustworthy and worthy of quoting here?

Yeah, by default politicians don't tend to be the most trustful of the people, but if you mix that with an expansionist strategy... the results are awful ( again -> Hitler, Saddam Hussein, etc. ).

[ProfTournesol 956]

As we can read, Putin himself admits, he was lying and in the same time is justifying these lies. This man and any of his words is not worthy of any trust by this fact. Few months ago was defended so hard thesis, that turned to be a lie. So why Putin's statements are still treated as trustworthy and worthy of quoting here?

He was a KGB officer, lying is a second nature for him. "Old habbits die hard".

[Rydygier 1309]

http://fakty.interia.pl/prasa/news-kwasniewski-plan-putina-jest-jasny-zapewni-mu-miejsce-w-hist,nId,1411870

- Putin's plan is clear: to turn all of Ukraine to its largest, project of life, which will ensure him a place in history: the Eurasian Union. All the rest is just propaganda to appease their own public opinion and win the favor of at least parts of the world, as indeed does very professionally and consistently - says in an interview with "Rzeczpospolita" former president Aleksander Kwasniewski.

According to Kwasniewski, Putin will continue the "war of chaos." - With that in perspective, not even long term, but the medium can achieve the same effect. He wants to bring Ukrainians to such desperation that adopt Russian support and membership in the Eurasian Union with relief - says politician.

- Certainly Russia plays on disintegration of the state, but the disintegration is not yet - says Kwasniewski. - It is rather the disintegration of the army, which for 23 years was underfunded and that - like all power structures - is experiencing a moment of trial: it must determine on which side he's on - he concludes.

The former president also emphasizes in an interview with "Rzeczpospolita" that Putin through a "war of chaos" that is going to conduct, wants to control not only the eastern Ukraine, but the whole country.

- I'm back from Kiev: there are strong revolutionary sentiment, patriotic. But within a few months everything can change if the economy will dive, the hryvnia weaken, inflation will accelerate. People have limited patience. It is time for the Ukrainian society of great trial. Putin hopes that the Ukrainian patriotism is not as strong. I hope, he'll be wrong - sums up the former Polish president.

Note, if he is right, I do not know, if this is good or bad for people of Ukraine and others to be in such Union, Putin supposedly tries to achieve, but used measures are deeply wrong, and that's the point. Besides, country should freely decide about such membership, and hard to name "free" a choice made under desperation, not mentioning, so any freedom of selfdetermination of Ukraine now is suffocated by Russia, trying to enforce certain way of events on Ukraine. Enforcing, obviously, if effective, as it looks so far, denies freedom.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Rydygier

[kireta21 13]

He was a KGB officer, lying is a second nature for him. "Old habbits die hard".

Technically he didn't lie, since Russian soldiers didn't operate as part of Russian Army, but with their coat of arms removed, making them unlawful combatants.

[Dwarden 1125]

Yes, that's interesting topic by itself, and mentality pretty close to the core of the conflict. To define, what is rightfully whose. If some kingdom conquered some land in the middle ages and now country built on that kingdom claims that land as own, no one, if reasonable, will oppose. But 1700? Not so much clear really. It wasn't conquered as some ungoverned, empty land. It was taken by force from another country. If now Putins says, basing on that event, so this land is rightfuly his, he admits, what is sad true in the effect BTW, so the final law is the ability to enforce own will over will of the others. Of course we could multiply arguments and dooubts in both directions, and this is the point. Such approach is by definition fluid and hazy, it always ends on some not common, contractual agreement (or lack of such), not defining any objective truth, so convenient way for someone, who try to justify something not just.

It is also quite ironical, to hear from Russia, knowing its past policy, from tsars times and USSR, and later, about rights to the territory and defending freedom of anyone. Russia isn't USSR? Yeah, but people's mentality does not change so easily, as name of the country or its oficial polity. And mentality is crucial. When I observe, how Russia acts, what kind of arguments it uses, it is obvious for me, that Soviet and especially agressive, imperial mentaility is very alive and doing well in modern Russia.

Conclusion: whole such way of thinking/justifying is missing the point, is wrong. Point is not who has such "defined" "rights" to something, but what is best for the people, all together and each individually. Question is, if Putin's activities on Ukraine, his warmongering, brings good for the people out there and not only there, or on the contrary. Is he after good of any people, or rather only after own ambitions, dreams about restoring the power etc. crap. IMO, external undermining of status quo as for boundaries of another country is nearly certain way to achieve suffering, chaos and bloodshed. It is also always risk of war. Thus it is wrong.

Let's look at Poland as another example. Compare boundaries of this country from before WW2 and after Jalta. Consider, would be right thing (good for people) now to restore old, pre-war boundaries? What consequences could be forseen? Such thing is happening on Ukraine now due to Russia's too long and too restless hands.

So yes, it is very harmful precedent, the mentaility, Putin presents to justify his aggressive stance. And the wrong thing by its own too. And not surprising, sadly. Also this is not surprising a bit:

Putin changing his story about the Crimea

As we can read, Putin himself admits, he was lying and in the same time is justifying these lies. This man and any of his words is not worthy of any trust by this fact. Few months ago was defended so hard thesis, that turned to be a lie. So why Putin's statements are still treated as trustworthy and worthy of quoting here?

you forgot to mention that when USSR lost war with Poland in 1921, part of the peace treaty was that they will respect sovereign independent status of two states: Ukraine and Belarussia ...

in 1-2 month after the pact, USSR invaded those and captured them again ...

Edited April 18, 2014 by Dwarden

[mistyronin 1181]

Basically seems that the armed militias of Russian speaking Ukrainians don't care about yesterday's agreement.

( The Guardian ) Pro-Russian groups to stay put in east Ukraine until referendum takes place

Pro-Russian groups in eastern Ukraine have accused the authorities in Kiev of violating an agreement to defuse tensions across the country, adding that they have no intention of leaving buildings they have occupied.

On Thursday Russia, Ukraine, the EU and the United States signed an agreement in Geneva that was supposed to see illegal groups withdraw from municipal buildings and give up their weapons.

At a press conference on Friday, however, Denis Pushilin, the self-styled leader of the Donetsk People's Republic, said his supporters would stay put until a referendum on the region's future status took place. The current pro-western government in Kiev was illegitimate, he said.

Edited April 18, 2014 by MistyRonin

[akm74 1]

In the capital, Kiev, people on the Maidan, the local name given to Independence Square which was the centre of protests that eventually toppled Yanukovich, said the barricades would not come down until after the May 25 presidential election."People will not leave the Maidan. The people gave their word to stay until the presidential elections so that nobody will be able to rig the result. Then after the election we'll go of our own accord," said 56-year-old Viktor Palamaryuk from the western town of Chernivtsi.

"Nobody will take down our tents and barricades," said 34-year-old Volodymyr Shevchenko from the southern Kherson region. "If the authorities try to do that by force, thousands and thousands of people will come on to the Maidan and stop them."

Right Sector, a far-right nationalist group whose violent street tactics in support of the Maidan helped bring down Yanukovich in February, saw the Geneva accord as being directed only at pro-Russian separatists in the east.

"We don't have any illegal weapons and so the call to disarm will not apply to us," said Right Sector spokesman Artem Skoropadsky. "We, the vanguard of the Ukrainian revolution, should not be compared to outright gangsters."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/18/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA3A1B520140418