Ukraine General

[batto 17]

"In a democratic state, any government official, always remember that if it, even accidentally, takes the wrong, harmful for the state solution, he will not be able to hide. The opposition will tell you about it in independent Newspapers, radio, television, the Internet. Thus, the voice of the opposition helps the authorities to feel their responsibility before citizens."

Such lessons impossible in USSR, but in Russia it's ok. Democracy? Freedome to speech? Freedome to mind? Yes!

And what I see is that it's slowly going away from you while you're drunk by nationalism just like USA was after September 11 2001. Soon, you may only have state approved information without any wrongs in them and even if you'll be able to dig other information from independent sources 99.9% of citizens won't care, effectively making any wrongs hidden.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/03/russia-blocks-access-major-independent-news-sites

Also, I don't speak nor understand Russian so I couldn't understand what was on the picture.

[arttem 1]

Left side, Ukarine news about Crimea. Right side original, 2012, Manhatten. :D

http://cs619919.vk.me/v619919783/1b57/wwrRwvQEVAs.jpg (252 kB)

---------- Post added at 15:55 ---------- Previous post was at 15:52 ----------

Also, I don't speak nor understand Russian so I couldn't understand what was on the picture.

Sry. Somehow i thought you know. Sry.

---------- Post added at 16:01 ---------- Previous post was at 15:55 ----------

no nationalism just like USA was after September 11 2001

Hmmmm. I don't see any nationalism in myself.

I do not propose:

- to capture US,

- to fight with US,

- kill them in Russia,

- to close their entry into Russia,

- to bomb the Ukraine.... bla bla bla Russia for Russians... bla bla bla.

The fact what i see clearly the actions of the US against us? And all what i want is that they eased the pressure? It's a nationalism? Ok. Sry me for nationalism. I'll try to be more diplomatic.

[spooky lynx 73]

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/03/russia-blocks-access-major-independent-news-sites

Well, AFAIK neither grani.ru nor especially kasparov.ru are not major news sites. They represent the opposition point of view, so it does not make them truly independent. Oh and I read Echo of Moscow often but hadn't noticed it was blocked. So again infowar at its best - naming two opposition sites 'major independent news' ones.

[arttem 1]

Well, AFAIK neither grani.ru nor especially kasparov.ru are not major news sites. They represent the opposition point of view, so it does not make them truly independent. Oh and I read Echo of Moscow often but hadn't noticed it was blocked. So again infowar at its best - naming two opposition sites 'major independent news' ones.

Yep.

http://www.echo.msk.ru

Works perfectly.

[batto 17]

Well, AFAIK neither grani.ru nor especially kasparov.ru are not major news sites. They represent the opposition point of view, so it does not make them truly independent. Oh and I read Echo of Moscow often but hadn't noticed it was blocked. So again infowar at its best - naming two opposition sites 'major independent news' ones.

What you said, except the ban lift, is absolutely irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that your government has knobs to knock out anything in their way no matter if it's independent or opposition news.

[arttem 1]

Sigh... my point was that all you care about now is Evil USA but you ignore that soon you may not be able to tell whether it's true or not.

Only the "Iron curtain" (back in USSR) may lead to it, it seems you really think that you are dealing with fools.

And i support the ban for kasporov.ru. Because if you are using Neuro-linguistic programming, it's a dirty game. Plus all material is always on the verge of hysteria without any normal proofs.

Edited April 6, 2014 by ArtTem

[spooky lynx 73]

What you said, except the ban lift, is absolutely irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that your government has knobs to knock out anything in their way no matter if it's independent or opposition news.

Just like YouTube suspension of RT account, for sure by coincidence after Crimea mess. You know, such measures are often used, and using it by YouTube (RT, SyriaTube etc.) does not differ from using it by RF government.

[Tonci87 163]

It created very nasty precedent in modern world politics and international law: a coalition of a countries forced separation of the region from other country. Moreover military forces of that coalition de-facto took the side of one nation and helped it to get rid of another one. And what is most disturbing -that countries have enough impudence to teach us how to behave. Well, at least we hadn't bombed the whole Ukraine for a couple of months, ruining lots of civil buildings and killing several hundreds of civilians and supported a referendum but not some one-side decision of local self-proclaimed parliament. Oh and we hadn't fabricated mass murderings of Russians to excuse the bombings of Ukraine.

Is the fact that the majority of the Kosovos populace didn´t want to be a part of Serbia anymore and that there were mass murders executed by the Serbians of any relevance to you?

[batto 17]

Just like YouTube suspension of RT account, for sure by coincidence after Crimea mess.

http://rt.com/news/rt-youtube-suspended-glitch-534/

P-please...

Google apologizes for RT's YouTube channel 'suspension' due to tech bug

You know, such measures are often used, and using it by YouTube (RT, SyriaTube etc.) does not differ from using it by RF government.

It is different. Companies put content down on their own discretion and I don't remember any such case related to critique of government.

EDIT: Anyway, I was just wondering why do you support Putin despite this. If you're fine with it then be it.

Edited April 6, 2014 by batto

[spooky lynx 73]

Is the fact that the majority of the Kosovos populace didn´t want to be a part of Serbia anymore and that there were mass murders executed by the Serbians of any relevance to you?

This majority arrived in Kosovo only some decades before and became true majority after expulsion of most of Serbian population due to actions of UCK and their supporters. And those mass murders of rebels and their supporters... well, you know, it is named counter-insurgency and is absolutely lawful, except the cases of rebels being sponsored by 'free world';) BTW the same situation with Russian population in Baltic states (the fact that many of them settled there in recent century or after 40's) is concidered as excuse for not to follow European language standards. So does that mean that Albanians are people of higher grade and deserve independent state and Russians are of lower grade and don't deserve even their language being used as the second state or regional one? Or should Russians living in Baltic form their own UCK with blackjack and hookers and fight for freedom?

http://rt.com/news/rt-youtube-suspended-glitch-534/

P-please...

It is different. Companies put content down on their own discretion and I don't remember any such case related to critique of government.

Oh what could you expect if not 'technical glitch'?:D And the fact that that glitch occured during Crimea escalation - pure coincidence, nothing else.

[batto 17]

Oh what could you expect if not 'technical glitch'?:D And the fact that that glitch occured during Crimea escalation - pure coincidence, nothing else.

Yeah, sure, 3h channel down time, "Go suck it Russia!". It reminds me of that scene from one South Park episode where Butters as Professor Chaos started his evil career by exchanging soup orders in restaurant. My hypothesis (I just sucked it out of my thumb) is that big Google AI made a wrong decision from number of "Flag as inappropriate" hits on RT channel :3. And I bet there's a lot of them from hardcore Americans ;).

[Tonci87 163]

This majority arrived in Kosovo only some decades before and became true majority after expulsion of most of Serbian population due to actions of UCK and their supporters. And those mass murders of rebels and their supporters... well, you know, it is named counter-insurgency and is absolutely lawful, except the cases of rebels being sponsored by 'free world';) BTW the same situation with Russian population in Baltic states (the fact that many of them settled there in recent century or after 40's) is concidered as excuse for not to follow European language standards. So does that mean that Albanians are people of higher grade and deserve independent state and Russians are of lower grade and don't deserve even their language being used as the second state or regional one? Or should Russians living in Baltic form their own UCK with blackjack and hookers and fight for freedom?

Oh what could you expect if not 'technical glitch'?:D And the fact that that glitch occured during Crimea escalation - pure coincidence, nothing else.

You know evidently nothing about the situation in ex-SFRY. It should suffice to say that certain groups within the Serbian population commited actions that didn´t happen in Europe since Hitler and WW2, all sanctioned by the Belgrad Government.

[scrim 1]

Those picture was from Putin resourse for children. The lesson is called, "why do we need the opposition?" Translation:

"People who are disagree with government policy, could find in state power some error. And that's fine. Let looking for. That is why state authorities are accountable to citizens. And when the government feels its responsibility, state officials making are much less wrong decisions and much less likely to make mistakes in purpose."

From next page:

"In a democratic state, any government official, always remember that if it, even accidentally, takes the wrong, harmful for the state solution, he will not be able to hide. The opposition will tell you about it in independent Newspapers, radio, television, the Internet. Thus, the voice of the opposition helps the authorities to feel their responsibility before citizens."

And in real life, opposition members are either opposition members in name only, supporting everything Putin says and does (gotta love that opposition), or risk everything from bankruptcy to imprisonment to being mysteriously gunned down in the dark of the night.

Just the fact that reading material school children are told to read bears the name of the president is something that history very much indicates to even the most naïve and out right daft that a country has strayed far from democratic values and acceptable international behaviour.

Edited April 6, 2014 by scrim

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Ukraine: Pro-Russians storm government office in Donetsk

( RT ) Pro-Russian protesters seize govt buildings in Ukraine's Donetsk, Lugansk and Kharkov

- - - - - - - - - - -

Sry, forget about Japan.

Did Japan invade an annexed a country this last 30 years and I haven't realized! :rolleyes:

In fact that kind of military operations have only done for really few countries the last 50 years ( besides Africa where its an exceptional continent ), as they are considered the lowest of the lowest.

Told you before only a few countries among them Serbia, Irak or Russia have had ashamed themselves invading and occupying militarily their neighbors.

Just like YouTube suspension of RT account, for sure by coincidence after Crimea mess. You know, such measures are often used, and using it by YouTube (RT, SyriaTube etc.) does not differ from using it by RF government.

Well YouTube is a private company, and as it can publish whatever contents they want ( same as Facebook and so on ); I don't agree with some of their policies; but that's why there are other companies in the market.

On the other hand RT is a public company as is funded by the Russian gov. so it represents its policies.

[arttem 1]

President of Czech Republic Milos Zeman said on April 6 in an interview with Czech radio.

ITAR-TASS http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1101422

"Crimea, whatever we declared in the near future, will not be returned to Ukraine. And the Western powers, more precisely the European Union, have to live with it," he said. The decision of the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev "to gift in 1954 a Crimea to Ukraine" Milos Zeman described as "stupid".

At the same time Zeman criticised the law on the state language of Ukraine, depriving the Russian-speaking population of the right to use their language at the state level. "I don't know what kind of madman invented it," said the Czech President.

[Dwarden 1125]

the decision wasn't stupid, what NK did was move Crime from Russian Republic to Ukraine Republic due to economical, logistical and bureaucracy reasons ...

Crimea is linked to mainland Ukraine in everything (el. energy, pipelines (water, oil, gas), rail and road network, food supply chain etc. etc.)

the cost for Russia to 'reinvest' solutions for this will be enormous and IMHO this is why Russia will occupy East and South Ukraine sooner or later ...

(or adjoin via peaceful 'referendums')

[derk yall 0]

ArtTem: Something what president Miloš Zeman said that is ommited(I don't know, you didn't cite it, so I presume it's not in it) by your source:

„Ale i pro mÄ›, a to nejsem žádný jestřáb, je jakási red line anexe nebo pokus o anexi východní Äásti Ukrajiny. Tady bych se skuteÄnÄ› zmÄ›nil z holubice na ÄlovÄ›ka, který by volal po velmi tvrdých sankcích, protože to už by byla Å™etÄ›zová reakce, která by zasáhla na území svrchovaného státu. Té Äásti, která si vydobyla samostatnost a je hodna této samostatnosti,“ Å™ekl Zeman.

„V okamžiku, kdy by se Rusko rozhodlo rozšířit svoji teritoriální expanzi na východ Ukrajiny, přestává legrace. A tady bych se přimlouval ne jenom pro co nejostřejší sankce EU, ale dokonce i pro, řekněme, vojenskou připravenost Severoatlantické aliance například tím, že by vojska NATO vstoupila na ukrajinské území,“ upřesnil Zeman.

I won't translate it whole, but the important point.

If Russia tries to annex or annex eastern Ukraine, he (Zeman) will call for the most severe sanctions against Russia and even a NATO military presence in Ukraine.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Derk Yall
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[arttem 1]

ArtTem: Something what president Miloš Zeman said that is ommited(I don't know, you didn't cite it, so I presume it's not in it) by your source:

I won't translate it whole, but the important point.

If Russia tries to annex or annex eastern Ukraine, he (Zeman) will call for the most severe sanctions against Russia and even a NATO military presence in Ukraine.

I'm just posting an article from news media. Here is another resourse on english:

http://ru.euronews.com/newswires/2438756-newswire/ (but if you switch site on english, there is no any article about president speech, and it's a EURONEWS not Russian source)

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_04_07/EU-should-accept-Crimea-becoming-part-of-Russia-Czech-president-5246/

http://www.focus-fen.net/news/2014/04/07/332255/eu-should-accept-crimea-becoming-part-of-russia.html

On Czech.

http://domaci.eurozpravy.cz/politika/90832-zeman-je-pro-raznou-akci-nato-pokud-rusko-expanduje-na-vychod-ukrajiny/

Poloostrov Krym, který k sobě v nedávné době připojilo Rusko, se podle jeho názoru v dohledné době Ukrajině nevrátí a západní mocnosti a hlavně EU se s tím podle něj musejí smířit.

Zeman podotkl, že patří k tÄ›m, kteří se snaží pÅ™ipojení Krymu k Rusku pochopit. "Jednak z toho důvodu, že tam bylo to hloupé ChruÅ¡Äovovo rozhodnutí z roku 1954, jak víte, Krym k UkrajinÄ› nikdy nepatÅ™il, a jednak proto, že evidentnÄ› si vÄ›tÅ¡ina obyvatelstva toto pÅ™ipojení přála," podotkl.

His words? Yes. I see now that his speech is double-sided. NATO should go, everything illegal, but we have to live with it. Like Siemens boss, i wanna be with them and with those guys too. For me it's not so important, just posted message from ITAR-TASS, yes they cuted a full speech (i see now), but EU resourses cuting part about "to forget" and "gifts". Info war. :)

[derk yall 0]

"Zeman je pro ráznou akci NATO, pokud Rusko expanduje na východ Ukrajiny"

From the article name of the czech source you cited. I don't know why you specificly cited again these parts, when I stated that part of that speech was ommited, not that he didn't said that. Infact I find it pathetic that some foreign media take a thing he said several times in the past (the fact about Crimea and EU not able to do anything with it) and make it the most important part of their article on that speech and ommit the newest information (the part about NATO) from it.

President Zeman is pro-good relation with Russia even to the fact that he is often categorized as pro-russian. So him stating about the sanctions and NATO presence if Russia continue to expand into Ukraine is a serious change in his policy and show that he will not accept everything just to maintain these good-relation.

Yep, info war :)

Edited April 7, 2014 by Derk Yall
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[arttem 1]

is a serious change in his policy and show that he will not accept everything just to maintain these good-relation.

It's not so easy for him.

Let Kunovice (airplanes) - 100% of the bonds belong to Russia (Ural mining and metallurgical company);

ARAKO spol. s r.o (atomic industry) - 100% of the bonds belong to Russia (RosAtom).

There was one more big company in list - Vitkovice Steel , but it seems that Russia sell them to smbdy. Need to google.

And many contracts with Russia, i mean import/export.

[derk yall 0]

If Russia will annex or try to annex eastern Ukraine it will be easy for him.

And about the companies, it's a double sided game, if Russia will confiscate the assets of foreign companies (if sanctions are applied), then Russian's companies assets will be confiscated also by the corresponding states govs.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Derk Yall
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[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Protesters declare Donetsk 'republic'

( RIA Novosti ) Donetsk People’s Council Set to Hold Referendum to Join Russia May 11

( RT ) Activists declare Donetsk republic after capturing regional administration in Eastern Ukraine

Are we gonna see soon "little green men" popping all over Ukraine?

Edited April 7, 2014 by MistyRonin

[arttem 1]

Are we gonna see soon "little green men" popping all over Ukraine?

Sure.

[spooky lynx 73]

Today Harkiv. Beaten Right sektor members crawl through the 'pass of shame'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HbOHaNp25V4

Proclamation of Harkiv people's republic.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[arttem 1]

In the Federation Council exclude the introduction of Russian troops in Ukraine without the decision of the UN security Council.

(INTERFAX)http://www.interfax.ru/russia/369996

Moscow. on 7 April. INTERFAX.RU - The Russian peacemakers can be entered in the Donetsk region of Ukraine only in case of the decision by the UN security Council, said to "Interfax" the head of the Committee on defence and security, Federation Council Viktor Ozerov.