Ukraine General

[vilas 477]

Let's just isolate Russia from the rest of the world, like during the Cold war again, and within half a decade, they'll be fighting with their "friends", like the Chinese and such e.

i do not know if you read my posts with examples of pork industry , but now it is impossible, why ?

- Russia is big market, all big fat businessman will not allow it cause then BMW, Mercedes and all Canon, Philips, all will not be selling products to Russia,

- China is now (sadly) production place for majority of cheap goods, without China you will not have pants,

- moral issues never touch businesmen

even if Putin would take a half Ukraine and killed in battle milion Ukrainians, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Canon, Philips, AEG, Whirlpool will be selling their products and they will rather pay bribes to journalists who will write "majority of Ukrainans are nazis, they praise Hitler and brave Putin had to stop and save Jews, Brits, Frenchmen, Poles, Czechs, Latvians, Lithuanianas which Ukrainians wanted to kill"

when he will take hand for Lithuanian they will write "almost all Lithuanians are nazis and Putin had to save Poles, Jews, Brits, Suomi, Swedish people" and you will see another milion of cars sold by GM, BMW, Opel, Ford, Audi, Mercedes in Moscow "4x4 edition with better damper for Russian roads"

WW2 world reaction will not happen , why ? Ukrainians are poor, they live in poverty and they produce their own cheap cars like old Daewoo Lanos produced in Poland in 90s, machines, they are not consumers of products which consumers are Russians, big business won't defend them to loose ten times better Russian market

[mistyronin 1181]

Let Putin do whatever he thinks he can do. Let's just isolate Russia from the rest of the world, like during the Cold war again, and within half a decade, they'll be fighting with their "friends", like the Chinese and such so much that they are driven more to the West, whilst Russia descends further and further into an economic downwards spiral, or are forced to cut down on military spending so much they can't threaten their neighbours any longer. It's enough that deranged rulers in Moscow choked democracy and peace in Eastern Europe from the end of WW2 to the downfall of the USSR, let's not let that happen again at any price.

In fact the end of the Cold War prompted the rise of the extreme nationalism in Russia; like in the Versailles Treaty which prompted the rise of the extreme nationalism in Germany, and we all know how it ended...

Why do you think Putin has so much support? because as Hitler he promises to give their people a Great Russia once again, and blame the West for the past miseries of the country ( not the uselessness of their past political and economical system ).

[comm_yuri 10]

Some countries were already desintegrated. I hadn't seen any protests here because of split between Serbia and Montenegro. The same goes to Kosovo.

Good, than give independence to Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan etc and desintigrate. I won't be unhappy about that either :D

[vilas 477]

In fact the end of the Cold War prompted the rise of the extreme nationalism in Russia; like in the Versailles Treaty which prompted the rise of the extreme nationalism in Germany, and we all know how it ended...

i do not know if you read my posts but i was explaining why nationalism grows - due to poverty and foreign boss/unemployment/competition from abroad

people in poverty which see foreign businessmen in good limousine will always be nationalistic

people are not born nazis, people became nazis when immigrant took their job or when foreing boss doesn't want to pay more but has limosine,

Russia in 90s during Yeltsin was living in total poverty, they were looking for any job in my country and selling pirated clothes of pirated movies or electric equipment like drill machines, now they come here as tourists to luxury hotels

Edited March 3, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

i do not know if you read my posts but i was explaining why nationalism grows - due to poverty and foreign boss/unemployment/competition from abroad

people in poverty which see foreign businessmen in good limousine will always be nationalistic

When you have that facts that you mentioned ( poverty, foreign bosses / unemployment / competition from abroad ), you have two options:

- Change your government and issue new measures to solve it ( after all, no government can rule if a gross majority of their people don't want ).

- Blame the rest of the world and create hate; that you can later direct to whatever goals you want. Hate is a really nice way to control people.

Hate is the base of all extreme nationalism:

Hate against the jews ( Nazis, or spanish catholic kings, )

Hate against the communists ( Hitler, Pinochet, US, etc. )

Hate against islamic terrorism ( allowed Bush to prompt all kinds of crazy measures )

Hate against ... ( etc. )

It's really cool to always blame the others of your own faults... Populism is based on that.

Edited March 3, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

- Change your government and issue new measures to solve it ( after all, no government can rule if a gross majority of their people don't want ).

you must have free media, when media are owned either by gov. or by corporations - you will hear in media "all is good, no problems, work harder"

- Blame the rest of the world and create hate; that you can later direct to whatever goals you want. Hate is a really nice way to control people.

if big corporations "occupy" your country (i do not know if you know details or privatisation in Poland in early 90s after communism fall, our government for bribes sold a lot of things to west corporations for cheap money) ,blaming "the rest of the world" is sense in such case , cause you are not responsible for the fact that "this factory doesn't belong to us, this bank doesn't belong to us, if i look for a job as shop assistant i can go to Carrefour, Auchan, Lidl, Tesco, Saturn, Media Markt, Leroy, Leclerc (German or French shops) but i cannot look for job in Polish shop cause it doesn't exist or i can try to look for job as electrician in Procter and Gamble or Siemens or Whirlpool or ..."

you live in Finland, great, you have Nokia which sells around mobiles and i have Nokia in my pocket, but my uncle was constructor in ZWUT , he was constructing phones , Polish phones, his company was sold by government to Siemens and Siemens closed it and machines took to Germany (technological line was not outdated so Germans took ZWUT equipment) and suddenly my uncle which later was director of dept, couldn't find job cause Siemens replaced management with Germans , so my uncle died on stroke as unemployed (Polish telephones were widely used in Warsaw -Pact like yours Nokias)

do you now understand ?

Edited March 3, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

you live in Finland, great, you have Nokia which sells around mobiles and i have Nokia in my pocket, but my uncle was constructor in ZWUT , he was constructing phones , Polish phones, his company was sold by government to Siemens and Siemens closed it and machines took to Germany,

do you now understand ?

If big corporations occupy your country is precisely because the previous communist elite in Poland privatize their national companies and sell them to foreigners. But the ones to blame are the communist elite, not the foreigners.

Nokia now doesn't build mobile phones because Microsoft bought its branch, and its now a decadent company.

What are Finnish people doing? Creating new business like mobile gaming, I'm sure you know about Angry Birds, or Clash of Clans, or now Supernauts. Not blaming the US for being bad, and saying that Finland could be the best country in the world but its not because the other countries are bad.

------

Same happened to Russia. Their own oligarchy sold everything to get more money. And now they blame the West, when it was their own politicians.

But it's always easier to blame another for your own faults, than realize that its you who is doing wrong, and change your path ( again, that's were populism and extreme nationalism base its speeches ).

Edited March 3, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

If big corporations occupy your country is precisely because the previous communist elite in Poland privatize their national companies and sell them to foreigners.

yes, exactly (or new elites along with commies, it happened all in years 1988-1992

, not the foreigners.

but they used situation without any morality, just for profits, so there are reasons to not love them, they paid bribes to those who sold all for symbolic prices, they are equally guilty

[scrim 1]

In fact the end of the Cold War prompted the rise of the extreme nationalism in Russia; like in the Versailles Treaty which prompted the rise of the extreme nationalism in Germany, and we all know how it ended...

Why do you think Putin has so much support? because as Hitler he promises to give their people a Great Russia once again, and blame the West for the past miseries of the country ( not the uselessness of their past political and economical system ).

Which in my mind is exactly why the Western world should isolate Russia. Historically speaking, when a country is ruled by an aggressive dictator among democracies, the best way of teaching the citizens of that country not to let it happen again is to let them face the dire consequences of the actions taken by their regime, so that they will ultimately stop supporting it. It worked with Germany during and after the war, and considering Russia's/the Soviet Unions history of falling together like a house of cards when economically isolated by the West at the same time that they are attempting to boost their military capabilities, we won't even have to start a war. All we'll have to do is cut them off from the West, wait a few years, see them bicker with their Chinese friends, driving them West, and soon see Russia itself either remember its past and demilitarize, or collapse financially.

[vilas 477]

Same happened to Russia. Their own oligarchy sold everything to get more money. And now they blame the West, when it was their own politicians.

in law guilty is this who takes bribe and who offer bribe as well as those who takes bribe,

if someone offer bribes , he even gets sometimes bigger sentence because he corrupted first

[mistyronin 1181]

but they used situation without any morality, just for profits, so there are reasons to not love them, they paid bribes to those who sold all for symbolic prices, they are equally guilty

In any economy, all the companies work for profits. The only way to prevent companies to act without morality is with good laws and a good judicial system.

If you allow people to steal legally, you can't later blame them for stealing, and calling them culprits.

What you have to do is regulate, issue laws and make everyone respect them.

So again, the main culprit of the poverty, unemployment, etc. in the eastern countries is their own politicians; not "the West"; because it was them that when the change to capitalism thought that the only way to keep their power is to have money; so they sold all their countries main companies to the best payer .

All we'll have to do is cut them off from the West, wait a few years, see them bicker with their Chinese friends, driving them West, and soon see Russia itself either remember its past and demilitarize, or collapse financially.

That's what the Allied nations thought to do in Germany after the First World War; if they demilitarize and collapse them financially will prevent them to rise again. Obviously that was the main fuel that lead to the rise of the NSDAP, and the Second World War.

------------------------------------

EU foreign ministers have issued a statement saying they strongly condemn "the clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity by acts of aggression by the Russian armed forces."

Edited March 3, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

And again that old "agents of evil west" story... You have to understand that EU (or NATO) have no interest in Ukraine joining them! Otherwise, Ukraine would be already part of the Union. EU is interested in leaving status quo in this region - leaving Ukraine to Russia's will. Problem is that Ukrainian people don't want to be Russia ally, that's why they protest so vigorously. If "the West" helped them, then Russian Black Sea Fleet would be already fleeing to it's country...

I don't say that western countries don't use their people to spark some revolts - they do (remember Libya?), but everyone knows about it. And Russia also have "their people" where they want. Heck, even in Polish Parliament we have whole party formed from former communists! But this is an effect of "going the peace way", and making deal with the regime.

Not exactly. Agents of just another group of oligarchs who have nothing common with transparency, democracy and will to develop own country. With the help of mrs.Nuland etc. Why should EU and US lose profit?

Oh yes, Molotov coctails (super-secret weapon made in US Skunk Works laboratory), and bullets that fly through BTR's armor (we all know that BTR is heavily protected, as much as Merkava tank)...

Hadn't you forgot that maidan is unarmed protest and there should not be any weapon that can penetrate BTR or armored police car?;)

When Maidan protest was shed with blood, I was watching western, and eastern TV. I saw police using AKMS carbines, shotguns and British AI sniper rifles. What had the "blood-thirsty" "ritual-killing" protesters? Mainly hand weapons: wooden "batons", Molotovs, infamous catapult, airguns, traumatic pistols (guns for rubber bullet, popular in Russia and Ukraine where you can't own normal handgun), very few hunting rifles (well, that's "a weapon" - hunting rifle is not much different than "military" sniper rifle). No Kalashnikovs, no shotguns - even on Russia Today! So, if someone from police forces was hit with AK bullet, my bet is that he was shoot by one of his former colleagues - even some of Berkut troops changed sides during "riots".

But this whole "Maidan discussion" is now only distraction from the war going on in Crimea. West does nothing about it (apart from usual chit-chats), and this clearly shows that none of the "democratic leaders" cares for what happens in Ukraine. It's 1938 again, which leads directly to 1939. This time it may be not so bloody, but effects will be the same (well, OK, effects would be rather reminding 1945).

When maidan was 'shed with blood' there were numerous attacks of police forces commited by rioters before. So they got revenge.

Oh and why 'West' should care about junta that sides with nazis and grants a chairs of governors to oligarchs? I know that money don't smell but open support of ultra right forces is unacceptable in modern tolerant Europe.

WW2 world reaction will not happen , why ? Ukrainians are poor, they live in poverty and they produce their own cheap cars like old Daewoo Lanos produced in Poland in 90s, machines, they are not consumers of products which consumers are Russians, big business won't defend them to loose ten times better Russian market

They also sell large amount of such cars to Russia - almost third part of my city's buses are Bogdan (based on some Isuzu model), ZAZ Chance (former Lanos) and other models (Vida - former Aveo for example) are popular too. Even former Lada models (2110) that are still produced in Ukraine by Bogdan factory are bought here in numbers. KraZ trucks, Harkiv tractors are bought too.

Good, than give independence to Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan etc and desintigrate. I won't be unhappy about that either :D

With pleasure! These regions bring mostly troubles. I would be happy if they become independent state and gangs from which, raiding our border regions (like in 1996-1999) would be exterminated with all weapons possible as foreign invaders. But after 4-5 years of such independence male population of newly born Imarat would decrease much... Both while being killed by border guards or in clan vs clan wars (all this we have seen during de-facto independence of Chechnya after Hasavyurt treaty until second war). So okay, we will grant independence, but any gang coming from that country will be treated as invaders, okay?

[vilas 477]

What you have to do is regulate, issue laws and make everyone respect them.

and thats why you have ultra right-wing parties, they want to change law, make nationalisation of what was wrongly sold, and this cause all media (which are cooperating with big corporations ) call such guys "evil, nazis" while in fact people care about their economy and life-standard not about color of skin ,

to return back our property we would have to nationalize again what was sold in 1988-1992/3

noone among "west" will not allow on peacefull nationalization, only extreme politicians would be able to do such movements, maybe thats why in Ukraine they are finding support , not because people are "nazis for fun because they are dumb and have nothing more better to do"

key issue is economy, economical problems cause social problems,

btw as interesting news i will tell you MistyRonin that whole Polish banking sector was sold for ... 4 years profit , during 20 years they worked for their price 5 times, giving in period of 20 years 500%

Spooky good that you support independence of them, shame Putin not share your view, a lot of human lives in underground would be saved

[mistyronin 1181]

and thats why you have ultra right-wing parties, they want to change law, make nationalisation of what was wrongly sold, and this cause all media (which are cooperating with big corporations ) call such guys "evil, nazis" while in fact people care about their economy and life-standard not about color of skin ,

to return back our property we would have to nationalize again what was sold in 1988-1992/3

The Ultra right wing parties say what people want to hear, that's the meaning of populism. They promise the heaven to get to the power, and once they are there, they forbid any opposition and do what they want.

Why do you think Hitler won the elections? Because he precisely was talking about making economic changes, confront the West, improve the life standard for everyone. Obviously the jewish thing started later ( it was a good excuse to make a new parliament, when he blamed them for burning the Reichstag ).

Putin has done the same. And a lot of other right wing parties in Europe like Golden Dawn in Greece, are exactly the same ( GD even organize meetings to give food to the poor, etc. xD ).

[vilas 477]

ok so how to stop this ? feed the poor, but how , than whole rich EU would have to work for poor EU and around, you would have to work for me and Ukrainians, but you need to have car, holidays, house, you have your needs, you cannot work for my needs, you work for your needs because you live only once,

if i were poor than i would vote for those who give me food, banksters make nazism, isn't it?

Edited March 3, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

ok so how to stop this ? feed the poor, but how , than whole rich EU would have to work for poor EU and around, you would have to work for me and Ukrainians, but you need to have car, holidays, house, you have your needs, you cannot work for my needs, you work for your needs because you live only once

The only way to stop this deadlock is to cut it. If people want to sack their own bad government they can, after that you must be sure that the next elected are not gonna do the same ( issuing mechanisms so the population / parliament can impeach the actual government ; which BTW was the first thing that Yanukovich, Hitler, etc. removed).

Once you have a government that is controlled by the people, then they have to start issuing laws that favor their own national economy; not their own pocket ( if they do so, you can sack them again thanks to the mechanisms that I talked before ).

With proper laws, all the foreign companies have to behave or be punished legally.

Even with all that, it may be that your own economy is in bad shape, because after all the ones who do the best & cheaper & innovative product are the ones who get the market. So then you must promote Research & Development, and offer new products that everyone wants to buy ( like Apple did with the iPod, iPhone, iPad, etc. ).

----------------------------

Obviously autocrats are gonna try to prevent that, and what a better way than blame others? specially foreign countries ( that people don't know, so they are easy to hate ).

While people is hating the foreign countries, you are free to keep enriching yourself.

Edited March 3, 2014 by MistyRonin

[ProfTournesol 956]

Putin goes "all in". What will Ukrainian soldiers in Crimea do, in this catch 22 ?

[akm74 1]

With proper laws, all the foreign companies have to behave or be punished legally.

What if foreign companies already own/control peoples or organizations whose responsible to create those "proper laws" ? (most popular and widely spread scenario anyway)

[mistyronin 1181]

What if foreign companies already own/control peoples or organizations whose responsible to create those "proper laws" ? (most popular and widely spread scenario anyway)

It's the first thing I said. No government can rule if the people don't comply with their orders. People can always gather an sack the bad government ( in Ukraine they did a couple of weeks ago ).

The problem, is that after sacking the bad ones, you have to prevent any other bad gov; and create control mechanisms ( so the next governments have to be afraid of being sacked by the people, not otherwise ). It was all in my previous post.

[ProfTournesol 956]

The ruble is plunging, it'll cost a lot of currency reserves in order to sustain it, Putin's utter stupidy begins to pay back.

[vilas 477]

news so far (apart from discussion about reasons), there was told in media that:

- Russia moved special forces (Specnaz) and now ca. 16 000 Russian troops are in Crimea,

- McCain criticize Obama,

- Ukrainian MoFA asks EU for help in protection of nuclear plants,

- Pro-Russian movement now claims to be gov. of Crimean province,

- Russian Navy put ultimatum to Ukraine and Russian navy claims in p.r. that they do not know anything about Russian soldiers invading Ukrainian military bases on Crimea

one good thing said one Polish general "if unidentified personnel attack base, why army not open fire", if Russia claims those unidentified people are not Russian Army soldiers, than Ukrainian soldiers have full right to open fire as to terrorists (they do not have any patches on arms to proove they are Russian Army personel, so..)

unidentified personell with automatic weapons on foreign territory which surrounds army of this country bases - must be terrorist, they do not have Russian army patch nor Russian flag nor show any documents

Edited March 3, 2014 by vilas

[akm74 1]

to MistyRonin

They have one president right after USSR break-up. He was more like a "placeholder" at that time. He make everything worth. Then they have very West/EU oriented second president. He make it even more worth. Then they have very EAST/ Russia oriented guy, and he make it eve more worth again (even if i consider him guy who like to sit on 2 chair at the same time). So who we looking for now ? Messiah ?

if Russia claims those unidentified people are not Russian Army soldiers, than Ukrainian soldiers have full right to open fire as to terrorists

Yes i'm wondering that myself. Why don't they ? :)

Edited March 3, 2014 by AKM74

[mistyronin 1181]

The ruble is plunging, it'll cost a lot of currency reserves in order to sustain it, Putin's utter stupidy begins to pay back.

I'm afraid that you can call anything you want to Putin but stupid. IMO he was aware of what would happen, it's not an improvised movement ( you don't mobilize 150.000 soldiers and invade part of another country without giving deep thoughts ).

What I'm really curious is to know what's his master-plan... He hasn't been able to provoke the Ukrainian army and repeat another Georgia, yet. He has already tried to bribe them ( with some success ), so what's next? Keeping under siege until they need food and water?

people are not Russian Army soldiers, than Ukrainian soldiers have full right to open fire as to terrorists (they do not have any patches on arms to proove they are Russian Army personel, so..)

unidentified personell with automatic weapons on foreign territory which surrounds army of this country bases - must be terrorist, they do not have Russian army patch nor Russian flag nor show any documents

That's what happened in Georgia, later Putin claimed that those unidentified soldiers were Russian, so he send the 'peacekeeping force'.

[ProfTournesol 956]

- Pro-Russian movement now claims to be gov. of Crimean province,

What's funny is that the new self appointed Crimean PM Sergiy Aksyonov won only 4% at the last elections in Crimea. Wonderful.

---------- Post added at 20:36 ---------- Previous post was at 20:33 ----------

I'm afraid that you can call anything you want to Putin but stupid. IMO he was aware of what would happen, it's not an improvised movement ( you don't mobilize 150.000 soldiers and invade part of another country without giving deep thoughts ).

What I'm really curious is to know what's his master-plan... He hasn't been able to provoke the Ukrainian army and repeat another Georgia, yet. He has already tried to bribe them ( with some success ), so what's next? Keeping under siege until they need food and water?

Well, as it's quite obvious that a simple referendum (without threat) would have allowed Crimea to be even more autonomous from Kiev governement (and why not join Russia back), this military gesticulation is doing nothing but harm to Putin's interest IMHO.

[sudayev 27]

news so far (apart from discussion about reasons), there was told in media that:

one good thing said one Polish general "if unidentified personnel attack base, why army not open fire", if Russia claims those unidentified people are not Russian Army soldiers, than Ukrainian soldiers have full right to open fire as to terrorists (they do not have any patches on arms to proove they are Russian Army personel, so..)

unidentified personell with automatic weapons on foreign territory which surrounds army of this country bases - must be terrorist, they do not have Russian army patch nor Russian flag nor show any documents

They are "unlawful combatants" and use of them violates Third Geneva Convention.