Ukraine General

[batto 17]

Read the posts in context. By 'not so bad,' USSRsniper and I meant 'not so bad compared to the Stalinist '30s and Nazi Germany.'

USSR after 1956 wasn't so bad apart from corruption..

I'm still misinterpreting a bit.... but OK. It was better than Nazi occupation I guess :\.

[ProfTournesol 956]

We saw police, berkut, pro yanuk militiamen... but was the Army neutral ?

[Tonci87 163]

We saw police, berkut, pro yanuk militiamen... but was the Army neutral ?

So far it was apparently. I know that Janukowitsch replaced the commander of the Army when the big riots started. My guess is that this man refused to carry out orders that Janukowitsch gave him. Maybe Janukowitsch planed to use the army?

[vilas 477]

http://www.sfora.pl/Janukowycz-kupil-sobie-rezydencje-pod-Moskwa-Za-52-mln-dolarow-a65142

Yanukovich bought himself residence near Moscow for 52 milions dollars yesterday,

daaamn, Russia should not protect him, place of thief is in prison, not on free,

really sick situation when one corrupted thief might be replaced by woman who left prison after being imprisoned for corruption, and only honest people are "half nazi",goddamn hard situation,

in Poland those who not steal from budget are either ultra-right or ultra-left, rest is "compromises, keep hand on taxpayer money, changing views every 4 years and day after election changing again" (in Poland we even have few guys who change parties... every election, when party has low vote rate, they leave it and "change ideas" and go to party which has "big vote rate" and say things in TV which previously they criticized),

this is reason for going in popularity ultra-movements, cause in some countries "only them are not corrupted" (cause rest is interesting in being EU-member of parliament cause it is big salary in Brussels, once they are member of parliament they forget about any promisses and start to put relatives to better job payed from taxes)

Edited February 27, 2014 by vilas

[scrim 1]

So far it was apparently. I know that Janukowitsch replaced the commander of the Army when the big riots started. My guess is that this man refused to carry out orders that Janukowitsch gave him. Maybe Janukowitsch planed to use the army?

Probably not. History clearly indicates a dictator/regime negative ending trend as a result of employing a conscript military against demonstrations and popular uprisings.

Replacing the head of the army was probably to avoid having the army put itself between the protesters and the riot police in a chicken game of "riot police vs. Main Battle Tank" like in Egypt.

[spooky lynx 73]

Because Tymoshchenko is a nazi? Nice try.

Nope. Yulya will have a chance to get president chair only if far-right crew will lose and be moved out. They aren't happy about her being another potential president.

[maturin 12]

Nope. Yulya will have a chance to get president chair only if far-right crew will lose and be moved out. They aren't happy about her being another potential president.

Oh. OK. That makes more sense. You wrote the reverse last time.

[spooky lynx 73]

Oh. OK. That makes more sense. You wrote the reverse last time.

Shyteload of work and english being not my native language sometimes results to wrong words been written.

[ofp_comissar 130]

I'm a Russian, but my innards live near Poltava, and i can't to be disinterest.

IMO, of course, Ukrainians have all moral rights on the protests, because this administration - just corruptions and thiefs. The choosing between economical union with EU or Russia was not the reason of this revolution, but was the last hit in the people patient after economical problems.

But some thing make me be very skeptical to the Ukrainian future. First - of course, nazi parties is not main force of protest, but it is most organized political force, and they hail their "heroes", like Ukrainian SS forces, which killed in WW2 lot of Jews, Russians, Polish. And they already take the nationalistic laws about ban of Russian language. The Rus-speakers - it is the very huge percent of population, expetially on the East. That's why we already hear the separatist voices from East regions of Ukraine. The most funny thing in this crazy house, that fighters for "free will" from Maidan now told about separatists by force. I do not know, how many regions find enough free will and political force to provide referendum about separate, but the biggest chances for this have Crymean region, because Russia do not want loose their navy base in Sevastopol. And it is very stupid steps of new administration, when they must do all possible to save unite state, but take this nationalistic laws.

Second - the Yanucovich, of course, deserved his kick, but i can't find any rational and professional in economic person of protesters elite. Nationalistic idiots, who will looking for "jews and moscow evil plans" in each box? This boxer , which "meeting with dead"?(i mean one funny blooper of Klichko) Or this hybrid of princess Lea and Franklin Roosevelt? (i'm about Timoshenko). So, it is not as good replacement of corruptioners and thief's, as Ukrainian people deserve.

The most interesting thing, IMHO, is that Russia can take some regions back, and it's will be intresting - to look for political fight between RF, EU and US in this round. Some sourses aready told,that Russian forces already hold in Sevastopol airport.

[Amra 10]

Yeah, I have close friends in eastern part of Ukraine, who are ethnic ukrainians. They told me yesterday that in their city some bandera-lovers tried to destroy memorial to Red Army Soldiers who died liberating Ukraine and that whole city (russians and ukrainians) protected it. Unfortunately they don't read bis forums and can't read scrim's colorful hysteria about genocide, holodomor and what else. The fact is that ukrainians and russians are brothers and our fate is a common one no matter what our semiliterate friends from West might think. "The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on".

[ProfTournesol 956]

The Sevastopol airport is occupied by armed "militiamen" (obviously Russian soldiers) : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26379722

Is Putin waiting for a reaction from the new Kiev governement to justify a direct intervention ?

[vilas 477]

when minorities are too big, it always cause problems cause minorities demand more and more rights and than majority feel danger of it, every nation should have right to have their own culture, rights, language preserved, no matter if Kurds, Russians, Poles, Basks, Chechens,

Ukraine has 30% minority of Russians, really although it is not loved in Ukraine, but really maybe splitting would be the best solution, why ?

- keeping someone by force will not make friend, will only make enemy,

- majority will be frustrated by minority and majority will be more and more angry and radical,

- it will only lead to civil war or worse, to war which can spread and cause a lot of problems,

Ukraine now is like conflicted marriage, what is a sense of keeping 2 persons who not like each other and both cheated ? then people take divorce and live alone without this all anger every day,

i know for many Ukrainians it is "worst" at the moment, but if they will think about future, than maybe splitting will be only peacefull solutions cause than:

- Russians have Russsian language and no need to learn new language,

- Ukrainians have Ukrainian Ukraine and they can decide whatever they need on their territory,

- there is no internal hate, cause Ukrainians live on their land easy and Russians live on their part easy,

country like Russia is more rich than Ukraine so they can finance for example new houses for Ukrainians who would leave such separate part,

but Russia should show good will and NOT hide Yanukovich and not protect him - this what they have done is ugly, they protect corrupted politician who ordered to shoot to his nation,

Russia should deport Yanukovich to Ukraine , than Ukrainians should talk about peacefull solution and giving Russians their safe place to live,

but first step should be on Russian side, why? because they protect corrupted politician Yanukovich,

if Russia will be protecting him, than i understand growth of radicalism and anger in Ukraine,

cause for example if i would be robbed and my neighbor will be protecting thief that robbed me, than i will start to hate not only robber but person who helps him, in criminal law it is called "helping criminal" and it is crime to : hide criminal who is wanted by police, in criminal law it is crime,

Russia now commits crime, because Yanukovitch is corrupted, he was stealing Ukrainian tax money, he was ordering shooting to his own citizens, he is criminal and he should be deported from Russia as usual criminal,

if Ukrainians want to hang him, shot him, put him for 25 years or life prison or 10 years - it is THEIR decision, not Russian

Russia is now fueling flame in Ukraine by keeping this guy, it is ugly step that i was not expecting to be honest, i was thinking that Ukrainians will catch Yanukovitch and punish him the way they want,

so if Russian gov. act like this - than usual Russians should not be surprised by Ukrainian radicalism, because if for example Poland was hiding person who rob you, you would hate it, the same with Ukraine,

this man robbed Ukrainians and he is protected by Russian gov.

this will not help to solve situation, this will not make friends , this will not make people less radical - this will only cause hateflood, cause than Ukrainians will say "Russians demand to keep their language on our country and meanwhile protect man who ordered to shoot to us and who robbed country",

Russia should remove Yanukovich, criminals and corrupted politicians shoule be persona non grata in every civilised country, there should be no safe place for corrupted politicians on Earth, their place is in hell ,

it reminds feudalism era , when king was "owner" of people on "his" land, today's some politician act like kings , politician is person who is supposed to serve people because they pay taxes for him and he is clerk that must follow will of people who hire him (pay his salary),

president is not king, he is clerk, Russian gov. should not protect corupted people (i know that some west governments do it too, countries like USA or Israel do not deport their citizens even if they commited big crime in other country, we know about such cases when Poland had rejected applications for deporting Stalin criminals or business criminals from 90s)

i would like to hear opinions of Russians about protecting Yanukovitch , yesterday he bought for 52 milions dollars residence near Moscow and he has security given

Edited February 28, 2014 by vilas

[sudayev 27]

Today no one will deny the fact that Yanukowych was just a russian viceroy on Ukraine and russian government only acknowledged this fact by harboring and protecting him. Russians will continue their ugly politics by giving Yanuk a voice and using him as a leverage on Ukraine to gain profits (resources, land, economic dependency from Russia).

A similar example - they're doing similar thing with Polish presidential plane that was downed in 2010 Smolensk - pretending they're still doing an investigation (the result will be obvious - not their fault). This wreck is causing a nervous atmosphere in Poland and divides the public opinion and political forces. The more time in Russia it spends decaying - the more nervous in Poland. Nevertheless this is partially happening on request of our government who totally gave the investigation to the Russian side - and they used the best of it. This photo says a lot :/

What I described above is book example of a leverage by using a person or thing belonging to other nation. Four years have passed and still nothing and no views on the horizon for the wreck to come back to Poland. Ukrainians will have the same thing with Yanukwych, his persona will be used to stir the public opinion and society, to discredit the new government, to support the russian influence over the region.

[Colossus 2]

The Sevastopol airport is occupied by armed "militiamen" (obviously Russian soldiers) : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26379722

Well, they sure ain't your typical bandits, with their nice AK-74Ms and identical "standard issue"-looking uniforms and equipment :rolleyes:

Though we don't know the full picture, didn't Russian troops do similar acts in former Yugoslavia in the 90s? EDIT: Found it - "Incident at Pristina airport"

[vilas 477]

Putin is like Stalin - master of intrigues (efficient intel officer), yes indeed Russia (again, Russia in meaning government, not usual people , like I do not want to be identified by current gov) keep wreck of airplane , but i think it is not that only Russia play it, but also our gov. like this "sumbissive" position because in "airplane" case you can hide economical crimes (if not plane crash, than "mama Madzi" or other media topics which are used to cover economical crimes)

maybe the same was in Ukraine "divide et impere, conflict usual people, let people hate each other and in meantime we steal" , smoke screen,

Edited February 28, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

My bet is that in today's press confence, Yanukovich is gonna announce that he asked Putin to help him recover his 'legitimate' power, the Russian 'undercover' soldiers are just securing the airports for a possible assault force.

[ProfTournesol 956]

My bet is that in today's press confence, Yanukovich is gonna announce that he asked Putin to help him recover his 'legitimate' power, the Russian 'undercover' soldiers are just securing the airports for a possible assault force.

Yes, i share this idea, as Putin must seek some kind of legitimacy to intervene in Ukraine. Not really subtle, but probably enough for him.

[vilas 477]

i doubt it would meant civil war or international war

[mistyronin 1181]

i doubt it would meant civil war or international war

Well maybe some Ukraine protestors will harass these men, and then Putin will be "forced" to send "peacekeeping troops"... like in Georgia. Then Russian passports for everyone and a new puppet state under the Kremlin. After all there is a huge amount of ethnic russians in Crimea, and is an important strategic point.

[biggerdave 56]

Look at those rifles.

Much RIS. So Spetsnaz. Wow.

If these guys are Militia, I want the day jobs they're working to afford that kind of kit ^^

[Tonci87 163]

These guys don´t look like Militia

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yanuk's press conference starts.

[Colossus 2]

Yanuk's press conference starts.

http://rt.com/on-air/

[ProfTournesol 956]

He still thinks he's the boss, but at least he doesn't call for a Russian military intervention.

[mistyronin 1181]

These guys don´t look like Militia

http://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/bilder/flughafen-simferopol100~_v-videowebl.jpg

Why not?! If they wear a camo like the digital flora, with what seems to be an AK105 and PKM, and being carried in Ural 4320 trucks... standard "militia" equipment... Wasn't it?

Another interesting detail is that they not carry a magazine loaded in the rifles, a really disciplined militia.

He still thinks he's the boss, but at least he doesn't call for a Russian military intervention.

Yeah, it's turning into an interesting situation.

Edited February 28, 2014 by MistyRonin