Ukraine General

[vilas 473]

returning back to history and things that people do not like to hear (example seen in posts of you know whose):

- in XVI and XVII century Poles were slaughtering Russians and Ukrainians - does it make me Polono-phobic ?

- in XIII and XIV century Jews were thrown away from Germany territory, French kingdom, Spain, Portugal, Austria, Czech kingdom, cause Germans, French, Spanish, Portugals were accousing Jews of source of Leprosy in Europe ,does it make French people antisemits ? they thrown away almost all Jews from territories of France, Germany, The Netherlands and Polish king took care about Jews in XV, XVI (1500-1560) century btw. in year ca. 1580 after big accousation of bringing Leprosy ca 80% of world's population of Jews lived under care of Polish king,

- Russian Tsar Ivan Grozny ordered to kill every Jews in 1563 etc. does it mean Russian nation is antisemitic ?

- in 1938 when Czechoslovakia was invaded by Hitler, Poland also invaded small part of Czechoslovakia - does saying about this make me anti-Polish ?

- in 1968 Polish troops were second after Soviet troops to invade Czechoslovakia, again the same ?

- first death camps were set by Brits in Africa - does it mean i am anti-Brit if i say about this ;)

- Native Indians were killed by US people, also in USA there was apartheid before 1950s, does it make me anti-American if i say about racial rights in 1940s in USA or by Native Indians ?

all this eristic is cause some people do not want to know history and deny history as not-easy science, history is twisted, all nations have good and bad sides,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Indian_Army < British officers in Indian army - makes me anti-British cause i say that Brits were ordering Indians

so stop saying bullshit that i am antisemitic or i deny holocoust, cause i do not like to call me antisemitic or denying holocoust, history is not easy story like Hollywood movies in which .. Enigma was decrypted by British intel, not by Polish underground like in real, also what about death camps reports given to British Intel during WW2 by Polish underground which were ignored by Brits ;) history is not fairy tale easy for 7 y.o. kids

Edited February 25, 2014 by vilas

[blu3sman 11]

Vilas you say about Ukrainian SS division killing Poles, Russians and crushing Warsaw uprising, but not a word on theese guys: Russian SS Rona

A bit one-sided, isnt it?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, several (if not all) of Nazi occupied countries supplied SS divisions. Nothing really new there.

[blu3sman 11]

Well, several (if not all) of Nazi occupied countries supplied SS divisions. Nothing really new there.

That's why it is unfair to say that Ukrainian nation is Nazi collaborationists and Russians are their victims. Most people killed on the Eastern front were Ukrainians.

[vilas 473]

Well, several (if not all) of Nazi occupied countries supplied SS divisions. Nothing really new there.

Poland not had SS division , so not all,

reasons for joining SS in some East countries was Stalin politics, people seen Stalin as bigger evil, probably this coused that there were Ukrainian, Lithuanian and as now i see even Russian SS unit , those people probably had zero knowledge about Hitler politics, but they knew Stalin politics and terror too much,

issue is not what was in past - we cannot change history, but what is future and if some percent of people on Maydan can throw away such past and say it was evil past not praise it cause when i see Bandera's portraits on photos i have reasons to feel scared

Edited February 25, 2014 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, no Polish based SS division, but a lot of Poles in the German army though : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_Wehrmacht

God, that's a little far from the topic purpose, isn't it ;)

Edited February 25, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[spooky lynx 73]

I agree, that was a very stupid move.

Stupid but expected move. According to glorious maidanuts one state language ("Ein Volk, Ein Reich..."?) will fill the bank accounts of the country and keep it away from default.

[scrim 1]

Not submitting to Russia as a second class state =/= Nazis.

[vilas 473]

Blu3sman - people walking there with Bandera portrait really afraids us in Poland,

i understand historical reasons (as i said causes of historical events , which met anger of 2 persons when i was saying about roots of nazism in Ukrane past, but reasons must be understood to prevent future mistakes and not to repeate mistakes from the past) but those historical reasons (Poland occupying Ukraine ages ago, plus Stalin politics) should not wake nightmares of the past, but they are waking up nightmares of the past, question is if people on Ukraine can stop those people who praise Bandera than world will not support Ukraine, for decades people in Georgia didn't understand Stalin's crimes, only last years they realized it when Poland helped Georgia and they were surprised that Stalin was bad guy,

history looks following: man A hit man B, man C who is son of man B took revenge for man A, than son of A - mr D, hit mr C, than mr E,son of mr B hit mr D, than mr F, son of mr E, hit m... i already got lost ....

it is neverening circle, right ?

but at some moment this circle must be stop, otherwise you would not make step forward,

look at modern Europe, we were fighting with Germans since milenium, now we cooperate, because circle was stopped, issue is to stop circle between Russia, Ukraine, than Ukraine will gain (no problems=gain) to stop this circle, Bandera portraits should not been presented on photos, cause journalists show us people with Bandera portraits, maybe it is 1% of Maydan, but anyway, they are widepread by media or /Russian intel ;)

[spooky lynx 73]

Some interesting news from Zakarpatye (in Ukrainian, I tried to translate via google but the result was weird).

[vilas 473]

Some interesting news from Zakarpatye (in Ukrainian, I tried to translate via google but the result was weird).

it is the same problem Spooky Lynx, it is this problem:

in past Russian gov. hit them, they wanted to hit back , after some years of being independent Russia wanted them to obey again (by economy) than...

problem is that none of parts in political scene doesn't want to take step back, someone in Russia makes logical mistake (or maybe it is intentional to make conflict more boiling and more dangerous or due to afraid of voters), because in case when Ukraine has it's independence after so long time it is natural that Ukrainians want to decide and build their own state,

if Russia pushes any pression (including economical) than it is natural that it causes angry reaction and arising of ultra-nationalistic reactions,

it is natural consequence of pushing line too deep, i understand that Russia know about 30% of minority there, but when you try to push Ukrainians against their national tendencies, Russia will not make them more peacefull, rather opposite, cause every action trying to force anything may cause anger in future ,

this now happens,

Ukraine is young state, 20 years of independence, Ukraine want to be Ukrainian as every young state, it is natural, they want to praise their culture, language etc. it is all natural, when anyone pushes them not to do it, it raises their ultra-nationalistic angry reaction, it is resistance,

it is like with training an animal,

you want animal to learn to do something, you try to force him only - he will bite you,

when you give him candy, he tries to do something for candy (candy for him , not to oligarchs),

mistakes carried by "big players in scene" (oligarchs, Russia, international corporations, EU) is that they do not give candy but try to force their wishes , which results in bites,

when someone asks you for a favour kindly - you can do something,

when someone shouts at you and tries to force you - you resist, right ?

it is natural reaction "if he want to force me, i will do opposite",

so

if Ukraine is young state and they want their language for example to be respected , Russians want their language to be used there, and you are suprised they are reacting by resistance? they are young state, they want to feel safely, if Russia or anyone will be telling them what to do, it will not cause anything but anger, like with training an animal or with asking for favour ,

Russia makes mistake when Russians want to not have Ukrainians be Ukrainians , cause it will cause only more tension,

i know Russians are big minority there, but if Russia will be trying to harm Ukrainians by economical decision - result will be only nationalism and more and more nationalism, more tensions, people killed in wood by "uknown person" etc.

the biggest mistake was made in 1954 when Hruschov moved borders, if not this, there would be no such problems now ,

or maybe Russian gov/intel/oligarchs want such situation, cause "divide et impera" works since ancient Rome (Stalin was best show of "divide et impere" and how to conflict different nations by pushing one nation on each other nation),

if it is only "divide et impera" reason, then "someone higher" wants people to get in conflict, cause in case of conflict "this someone" may gain a lot of money/power etc.

pushing tenstion on Ukraine by Russia will cause tension and nationalism, than what will be done ? Russia will say "Ukraine are terrorists" and A-stan but in scenery of Arma2 ? or some oligarchs want to sell some weapons, or other oligarchs want oil prices higher? eventual conflict inside Ukraine or Ukr-Russia will bring profits to small group of very rich, but loses to majority, so issue is if someone wants this conflict so much

Edited February 25, 2014 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

I'd say it's not the same problem: "Pravy sektor" became too violent and agressive (I mean they try to re-establish control over centuries-formed cross-border smuggling business and push Uzhgorod guys out of it), so even Zakarpatye inhabitants turned against them. As for our will to make Ukrs obey - it's false. We can easily co-exist either in one state or in neighboring ones. But Ukr govt wanted to seat at two chairs - receive wide economic support from us (cheap loans, low prices on gas and oil, low customs fees, co-operation in industry) but at the same time provide pro-EU/US politics. Well, you know, there's a proverb - those who pay, order what music to play. We don't want to pay for our neighbour performing unfriendly policy. You want to be independent - okay, have usual prices, customs fees, etc. I can't even imagine that Poland or Czech rep. or Italy could openly support Hussein or Quaddafi and establish good ties with him after he had been proclaimed 'bloody dictator' or openly support Serbia and help it with retaking Kosovo back. So it's not our attempt to enslave free Ukrs by high gas prices, it's usual pragmatic refuse to pay for other's good life.

[Maio 293]

Interesting video showing civilians (my guess) "asking" police officers for documentation... It's in Ukrainian, but you should get the gist of it. If someone can translate and give us a general idea, I would appreciate it.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Maio

[vilas 473]

But Ukr govt wanted to seat at two chairs - receive wide economic support from us (cheap loans, low prices on gas and oil, low customs fees, co-operation in industry) but at the same time provide pro-EU/US politics. Well, you know, there's a proverb - those who pay, order what music to play. We don't want to pay for our neighbour performing unfriendly policy.

totally agree, understandable

regarding video -

man wants policeman to show documents cause according to some last law (recent one ? crisis one?) that Police must stay in base, but those left base (against orders /law ) ?

that main rada/union/parliament (do not know what is head "rada") told to police to stay in place of base, but those "went for icecream to shop" and second doesn't want to show his documents to cameraman which asks for place of his base (dislocation),

probably there was order of parliament for police but policemen left place where they were ordered to stay,

but i do not know this order, they said about order of "head rada" , rada is soviet/union , maybe it is name of temporary gov. or parliament, man is sayin to policemen that they were ordered to not leave their bases but those guys left base (as second said to buy icecream) and he asks this officer - who ordered policemen to leave base against order

Edited February 25, 2014 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

It's those maidan 'defenders', mainly from Svoboda or Pravy sektor try to be 'angry cops'. I know nobody likes local road police (most of them are corrupted for the 146%) but this maidanuts behave even worse. Their manner of speech reminds me some street crooks from the deep province...

[vilas 473]

It's those maidan 'defenders', mainly from Svoboda or Pravy sektor try to be 'angry cops'. I know nobody likes local road police (most of them are corrupted for the 146%) but this maidanuts behave even worse. Their manner of speech reminds me some street crooks from the deep province...

basic question - how those policemen were talking with citizens BEFORE Maydan happened ?

i know this from my previous job, where i worked as public officer , it looks following:

me - good morning,

local bureau - whaaaat

- good morning

- what the the hell

- can i speak to mr. ABC

- i am busy, he is not here,

- but i need to ask him something,

- what for, who ?

- i am Mr. X from central bureau

- ooo kindly sory sir, yes sir, of course sir, yes sir, sorry sir, of course sir

the same is probably in all countries, where people only are nice to people with higher rank , for those with lower rank they are rude to show their power,

if you think this guy is rude, meet Polish judges or some Polish police in "democratic EU country", i am surprised that you call his behaviour rude, cause i met several policemen or judges during my legal career and they act the same "i have power, i set rules, you obey and shut up"

of course this guy uses language like from US movies and lots of F* words, but is it different from language used by soldiers during war?

c'mon, noone is elegant in such situations like almost civil war there,

Edited February 25, 2014 by vilas

[sudayev 27]

Inside of Ukrainian crime lord car pool. Keeping it gangsta.

http://auto.bigmir.net/autonews/autoworld/1557143-Pravyj-sektor-nashel-avtopark-syna-Janukovicha---SMI

Colonel Gaddafi would have been proud of his colleague. I think they were kinda soul mates.

I wonder if Yanoo had any gold plated AK's

[Tonci87 163]

I think they call their parliament rada. According to those guys the police had orders to stay inside their bases and they "asked" the officers for their documents so that they can report them.

(In east european countrys it is quite common not to be very polite or respectfull towards the police)

[vilas 473]

(In east european countrys it is quite common not to be very polite or respectfull towards the police)

this might be surprising to community members from West and requires a little clearing:

in west you get job when you are good, better than competitors on job interview or durring test/exams, in east often due to very high level of nepothism you get such jobs (public service, police, legal/law area) because your parents work there,

western countries develop due to having more profits because work more effective, east countries stood in place due to lack of it,

in west nepothism is something bad, in east it is "kapitał relacyjny" "relationship capital" (that name appear last times in schools of business, "kapitał relacyjny" (relations capital) previously called "znajomosci, plecy, plecak" (back side, backpack, relations) even now , after 10 years of our presence in EU is not ostracized, moreover, you are ostracized if you call nepothism as evil)

so this might cause different attitude in east and in west, cause in west citizen knows that policmen is to help him cause he lives from his taxes, in east many policemen (all those public services) think they are "rulers" and "you must obey" as if everything is payed from budget they do not care about effects, this attitude (i hope) should change, question - how many decades we need (so the best gets job, not "son, nephew")

i know work in many public institutions throughout many friends in different public institutions, in many cases people spend there 80% on watching internet, drinking cofee, reading books - people do not respect them, cause it is from their taxes,

due to low possibility to loose job in state-jobs (police) , policemen do not care, cause police is not as work in private company, of course there are those who work extremly hard (they do not have "relations" and they are taken cause someone must do the job ) plus governments do not have big society support and when police beat riots (economical) than people hate police as "armed arm of government"

there are serie of Mems "in Soviet Russia" , where all is upside down, so this is showing why "in Soviet Russia president assasinate you"

Edited February 25, 2014 by vilas

[OMAC 254]

This is what happens when the poor and/or mentally disturbed fuck with the police in the U.S. "meritocracy":

The police were acquitted of all charges. Do those cops deserve respect?

Whoa! Look at this beautiful CZ 75 pistol!

Hmmm. Who made this? ;)

[Beagle 684]

this might be surprising to community members from West and requires a little clearing:

in west you get job when you are good, better than competitors on job interview or durring test/exams, in east often due to very high level of nepothism you get such jobs (public service, police, legal/law area) because your parents work there...

I'm still asking myself where you have that optimistic view of "the west" from. Nepotism and corruption is not special to East Europe...the corrution just runs so deep that it is much better covered.

[vilas 473]

T

Whoa! Look at this beautiful CZ 75 pistol!

Who made this? ;)

:D Slavic mafia did this :D

I'm still asking myself where you have that optimistic view of "the west" from. Nepotism and corruption is not special to East Europe...the corruption just runs so deep that it is much better covered.

why i think good about West standards ?

- Norway, Sweden, Finland - transparency of state /public sector, transparency about tax information,

- clear and one-meaning law (i work with the law, often i get to translate legal regulations from different countries) and those legal regulations are precise, our are "arbitrary",

- Switzerland - referendums

- UK/US - voting for local sheriff, judge, prosecutor, we do not vote them, central gov. sets them without asking anyone,

- France - when minister used public car for his private case he lost job, cause car and fuel were not for his private use , what happens in Poland ?

one minister's wife often drive public limousine, burn fuel payed from taxes, one journalist wrote about this, journalist was fired from job,

now another parliament member's wife payed for her taxi with the parliament credit card , tax-driver noted press that wife of parliament member payed from our taxes for her private ride and this tax driver was fired from job,

so makes difference if in west when you release scandal - politician is fired and in east - when you release scandal - you are fired,

http://www.fakt.pl/taksowkarz-wyrzucony-z-pracy-przez-zone-hofmana,artykuly,446003,1.html

this is taxi driver who lost job 2 days ago because wife of parliament member payed public card for her private journey and he said about this to press , he should be our hero, he saves our taxes, but he was fired, shame is that this paliement member is from opposition,

wanna know why my mother was fired 12 years ago?

1)my mother worked in one ministry, she found that probably her director falsified signature of minister, so she noted police about falsified document, police "secured" document, she was fired, case was dismissed and few days later i was rejected from exams in police where i was one-leg in police,

2) i had burglary, to my father's house (he died than) there was burglary, burglars made a lot of noise, neighbors noted me that there are people in my father's flat, so i rang police, police came, took guys,

later i get information about discontinuation of case, case was dismissed, stolen during burglary item is now exposed in one museum (WW2 offlag memorabilia after my grandmother's boyfriend from 1943)

3) few days ago in Polish press there was following case:

one man damaged car of another man, guys knew each other and witness told police who made this, after month guy get from police "case dismissed" paper,

4)my friend from ex-job had been cheated on "ebay", he was buying guitar amplifier, but he get bricks in package, so he reported police, police "couldn't find cheater" for the first time, but after court rejected police decidion, cheater was found, but is not imprisoned,

5)my ex-girlfriend was almost driven over on pedestrian crosswalk, there was green light for pedestrian, red light for cars,

very fast crossing red light Toyota Avensis WI 65... driver talking by mobile phone almost killed her, i notified police telling register plate number, car color, car mark, police done nothing, probably guy was policeman or judge or prosecutor or parliament member, cause register plate WE or WI is often used by gov. court cars (center of Warsaw)

6) my neighbor has following problem, we have in our block of flats insane old woman, my friend has Mercedes, this woman used door-lock key to damage paint of the car (she made scratches on the car), my friend get out fast on the street to catch woman, he ranged police, police "dismissed" case of scratching car , but this woman said that my neighbor hit her and my neighbor had problems with police cause he was accused of violence against old woman,

so victim has damaged car, and crazy old woman which should be in mad-house is free and scratching other cars (3 cars were scratched on my street by her probably)

i doubt that such things are possible in Sweden , Norway, USA, in USA i would shot those burglars dead, in USA my friend would shot dead this woman who came to his property to scratch his car,

i doubt that such things could happen in Germany, Switzerland and so on, thats why i believe that western stadards are far better, Swiss government asks people whether they like something or not

in normal country my mother would get medal for founding signature falsification in ministry,

i read press and when i read news like "French minister dismissed for using public car for private use" i dream to live in country in which my taxes go for defense, hospitals, not for limousine of wife of parliament member,

as i said , it is fresh case, happened 2 days ago,

Polish parliament member wife used PUBLIC credit card to pay for taxi ride, taxi driver was fired when he said that he is against paying taxes for rides of family members of parliament members,

parliament member earns in Poland ca.. 5000 or 6000 Euro per month, and they dare to use public credit cards to pay not only for their private shopping , but their family members pay with public credit cards for their shopping !

so my taxes (although i earn 10 times less than parliament member) go for wives of parliament members

in Norway there were even tax info public available, such things in East do not happen (probably there is one exception from West - Italy, because of whole mafia history, indeed Italy is far from Sweden or Norway or Swiss standards)

higher standards are caused because taxpayers more care about their tax money and demand those taxes to be used the way they want not gov. wants, Poland is far more "civilized" than Ukraine, if such things happen in Poland, than imagine what happened in Ukraine ,

our countries have problem that out taxpayers do not say "no" when tax is wasted, Ukrainans made Maydan so they said NO, and for this i respect them ! they shown balls and said "no" to elites wasting taxes

Edited February 26, 2014 by vilas

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

I can guarantee you weren't kicked off police training due to corruption. You just aren't suitible for the role.

Proof? Go and read the above to a stranger in the street. They will either:

a) Run away

b) Punch you about half way through

c) Set themselves on fire like a Buddhist monk

So how would you give evidence in court as a police office if the judge, jury and prosecution are reduced to self immolation every time?

[Tonci87 163]

@Vilas You know I live in Germany, read this:

I was driving to work on my mountainbike. At an intersection a car driver ignored/didn´t see the red light and ran me over. Sadly there were no witnesses. So, I was pretty fucked up, lying on the ground when the police and the first aid arrived. As the medics checked me the police talked to the driver who claimed that I ignored the red light. He also didn´t forget to say that he was a public official. I went to hospital and a few days later my roommate found a press release on the police website about the incident. There the police publicly claimed that I was responsible for the accident and that I will be prosecuted for violating a red light. That I am responsible for my damage and the (substantial) damage to the guys car. Up to that point the police didn´t even bother to speak to me and to ask me for my opinion on what had happened. AS I immediately phoned them the responsible police officer even told me that they don´t need my testimony. I raised quite a scandal and the police had to dismiss the case. On top of that I also managed to go to court and to receive monetary compensation from the state insurance (it was a state owned car).

So you see, stuff like that happens in Germany too. It may happen on a smaller scale, or maybe they get away with it more often, but it does happen.

[Caselius 94]

I'm quite much sure that corruption is found in almost every country. It just depends how well the ones responsible can cover it up. Even though Finland has been rated many times as part of most uncorrupted countries in the world, it still exists, even on high levels. For example two Finnish Generals (Commander of the Army and ex Chief of Staff) have been using tax-money for their own housing renting & decorating debts. The official explanation for the tax-money payment of renting costs was "security reasons", but that was not clearly the case for the decorating-"accident".