Soldier protection (dev branch)

[maturin 12]

and as it takes more time to travel trough the body, it causes more damage,

That is highly doubtful, and the History Channel is trash, and not a source.

And that is because as the distance increase the angle of the shot increase as well, so this make the bullet gain more energy, the one who got all wrong is not me i'm sorry

lol. This is just rich. Sorry, but this reminds me of a third grader authoritatively correcting me by saying that the sun goes underwater off Hawaii every night.

So here goes. Go take a bullet, and drop it off a third story roof. This is the sum total of the energy a high trajectory shot gains. Really lethal, ain't it? The vertical component of the velocity is negligible compared to the horizontal dimension, which will see decelerations of many hundreds of meters per second at long ranges.

watch after 6 minutes and see what arc will do to increase the damage, and 1000 or 1800 fps, will still deliver a good speed and energy, and allied to the way the bullet comes down the target will deliver more damage

No one in that video mentions lethality. And only a heavy round like the 12.7mm dealt with by snipers is going to maintain good performance against armor.

[Ckrauslo 12]

The video mentions the damage that happens at greater distances, and a 338 can do a lot of damage being fired at 1400 yards, with bodies and limbs being teared up.

The history channel is not a source, but the men showed in there and giving their insight is " i mean the snipers and other military personal interviewed"

---------- Post added at 17:45 ---------- Previous post was at 17:40 ----------

So you're basically saying what a sniper said do not count because he said it in a History channel show?

[CaptainObvious 95]

So you're basically saying what a sniper said do not count because he said it in a History channel show?

I encourage you to mess around in some of the kinetic energy calculators online, like this one for example.

[Ckrauslo 12]

I encourage you to mess around in some of the kinetic energy calculators online, like this one for example.

When i click to calculate only goes to zero and do nothing

---------- Post added at 20:48 ---------- Previous post was at 20:46 ----------

Oh i already figured i don't have java

[Gutsnav 13]

I'm still pretty pissed off that the grenadiers have flak vests instead of engineers. Real grenadiers don't have this. The engineers do. Just because "Grenadier" indicates the word "Grenade", doesn't mean they have better explosive protection. The ENGINEERS need them, because what does a combat engineer do? You guessed it. They work with explosives such as mines, IEDs, tripwires, demolition charges, and all the other explosives. Grenadiers don't need it, unless they can't be trusted to aim a grenade launcher (Then they shouldn't be a grenadier). The only reason they would need it is if they got hit by their own grenade / an enemy grenade. But by that logic, all infantry should be as equally protected from explosives, because the enemy grenadiers don't specifically target the friendly grenadiers. They target the largest group of infantry they can see / the biggest threat.

[Fireball 16]

I encourage you to mess around in some of the kinetic energy calculators online, like this one for example.

Thing is, as many times in such discussions, both of you are right, to a certain extent.

While you guys saying that the kinetic energy decreases over time/distance, you are absolutely right with that.

When Ckrauslo says that slower projectiles usually do more devastating damage (to the unprotected body, that is!), he's also right. The explanation (or a good part of it) is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power#Energy_transfer

To give an example on over-/underpenetration:

A FMJ bullet at high speed may crush a ribcage with a clean hole, when it's passing through the body and leave a small exit wound, and as long it penetrates no vital organs it may not have a severe (immediately life-threatening) impact on the wounded. On the other hand, if a bullet with lower speed hits the ribcage or - let's say a rib - at a certain angle, it may detour into one or even multiple vital organs and wreak havoc on the target.

[Ckrauslo 12]

Thing is, as many times in such discussions, both of you are right, to a certain extent.

While you guys saying that the kinetic energy decreases over time/distance, you are absolutely right with that.

When Ckrauslo says that slower projectiles usually do more devastating damage (to the unprotected body, that is!), he's also right. The explanation (or a good part of it) is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power#Energy_transfer

To give an example on over-/underpenetration:

A FMJ bullet at high speed may crush a ribcage with a clean hole, when it's passing through the body and leave a small exit wound, and as long it penetrates no vital organs it may not have a severe (immediately life-threatening) impact on the wounded. On the other hand, if a bullet with lower speed hits the ribcage or - let's say a rib - at a certain angle, it may detour into one or even multiple vital organs and wreak havoc on the target.

Thanks fireball i was having a hard time to know how to explain it

---------- Post added at 23:21 ---------- Previous post was at 23:19 ----------

But i acknowledge i didn't know what caused it i only knew it happens

---------- Post added at 00:04 ---------- Previous post was at 23:21 ----------

Been reading and being shot depending on the caliber using a plate carrier, will probably fractures you're rib, and cause hardness to breath and probably knock you on ground for a moment

[bonham 10]

[/color]Been reading and being shot depending on the caliber using a plate carrier, will probably fractures you're rib, and cause hardness to breath and probably knock you on ground for a moment

Have you watched your own video you posted on the previous page? The energy of a bullet is distributed equally over a large area, when the plate is hit. Plate carriers are hard body armor, stiff, very sturdy and heavy. What you describe will happen to the wearer of soft body armor often made from aramid. They prevent penetration but are not as sturdy as plates and deform upon impact.

[Ckrauslo 12]

Have you watched your own video you posted on the previous page? The energy of a bullet is distributed equally over a large area, when the plate is hit. Plate carriers are hard body armor, stiff, very sturdy and heavy. What you describe will happen to the wearer of soft body armor often made from aramid. They prevent penetration but are not as sturdy as plates and deform upon impact.

I watched but depends very much on the plate you're using, if you search well online you'll find few things some guys that have been shot say about it, recently a BOPE police officer here was shot in the chest and broke two ribs, and he was using a plate carrier

---------- Post added at 00:56 ---------- Previous post was at 00:55 ----------

Have you watched your own video you posted on the previous page? The energy of a bullet is distributed equally over a large area, when the plate is hit. Plate carriers are hard body armor, stiff, very sturdy and heavy. What you describe will happen to the wearer of soft body armor often made from aramid. They prevent penetration but are not as sturdy as plates and deform upon impact.

That one had a impact reduction system "that yellow thing on the plate" but not all plates have that

[becubed 24]

A FMJ bullet at high speed may crush a ribcage with a clean hole, when it's passing through the body and leave a small exit wound, and as long it penetrates no vital organs it may not have a severe (immediately life-threatening) impact on the wounded. On the other hand, if a bullet with lower speed hits the ribcage or - let's say a rib - at a certain angle, it may detour into one or even multiple vital organs and wreak havoc on the target.

The slower bullet may also skate around the rib exiting about five or six inches from the initial impact leaving the target relativly uninjured, the FMJ round may break the bone sending splinters into vital organs.

I really don't see how the same bullet does more damage when travelling through the same path just at a slower rate, time to travell through the body is irrelevant, what matters is what is destroyed in the process.

[Ckrauslo 12]

Well is a known fact man, something that is observed so

And in another view the more contact sure do more damage, the same principal if you punch a wall and leave you're hand there you'll suffer more from it but if you punch and immediately take you're hand out you suffer less from it, or if you take a knife and quickly pass on you're tissue you will suffer some amount of damage, but if you pass with the same pressure but slower you can get more tissue separation

Permanent and temporary cavitation cause very different biological effects. The effects of a permanent cavity are fairly obvious. A hole through the heart will cause loss of pumping efficiency, loss of blood, and eventual cardiac arrest. A hole through the liver or lung will be similar, with the lung shot having the added effect of reducing blood oxygenation; these effects however are generally slower to arise than damage to the heart. A hole through the brain can cause instant unconsciousness and will likely kill the recipient. A hole through the spinal cord will instantly interrupt the nerve signals to and from some or all extremities, disabling the target and in many cases also resulting in death (as the nerve signals to and from the heart and/or lungs are interrupted by a shot high in the chest or to the neck). By contrast, a hole through an arm or leg which hits only muscle will cause a great deal of pain but is unlikely to be fatal, unless one of the large blood vessels (femoral or brachial arteries, for example) is also severed in the process.

The effects of temporary cavitation are less well understood, due to a lack of a test material identical to living tissue. Studies on the effects of bullets typically are based on experiments using ballistic gelatin, in which temporary cavitation causes radial tears where the gelatin was stretched. Although such tears are visually engaging, some animal tissues (other than bone or liver) are more elastic than gelatin.[citation needed] In most cases, temporary cavitation is unlikely to cause anything more than a bruise. Some speculation states that nerve bundles can be damaged by temporary cavitation, creating a stun effect, but this has not been confirmed.

One exception to this is when a very powerful temporary cavity intersects with the spine. In this case, the resulting blunt trauma can slam the vertebrae together hard enough to either sever the spinal cord, or damage it enough to knock out, stun, or paralyze the target. For instance, in the shootout between eight FBI agents and two bank robbers on April 11, 1986 in Miami, Florida (see FBI Miami shootout, 1986), Special Agent Gordon McNeill was struck in the neck by a high-velocity .223 bullet fired by Michael Platt. While the bullet did not directly contact the spine, and the wound incurred was not ultimately fatal, the temporary cavitation was sufficient to render SA McNeill paralyzed for several hours.

Temporary cavitation can also cause the tearing of tissues if a very large amount of force is involved. The tensile strength of muscle ranges roughly from 1 to 4 MPa (145 to 580 lbf/in2), and minimal damage will result if the pressure exerted by the temporary cavitation is below this. Gelatin and other less elastic media have much lower tensile strengths, thus they exhibit more damage after being struck with the same amount of force. At typical handgun velocities, bullets will create temporary cavities with much less than 1 MPa of pressure, and thus are incapable of causing damage to elastic tissues which they do not directly contact.

Core-locked rifle bullets that strike a major bone (such as a femur) can expend their entire energy into the surrounding tissue, causing it to take on a gelled consistency as the cellular structure is destroyed. The struck bone is commonly shattered at the point of impact.

High velocity fragmentation can also increase the effect of temporary cavitation. The fragments sheared from the bullet cause many small permanent cavities around the main entry point. The main mass of the bullet can then cause a truly massive amount of tearing as the perforated tissue is stretched.

Whether a person or animal will be incapacitated (i.e. "stopped") when shot, depends on a large number of factors, including physical, physiological, and psychological effects.

As you guys like to use wikipedia as a source

[Tyl3r99 41]

....

man break up the post...no one is going to sit here and read all of this clogged up together, edit it and space it out a bit

[CaptainObvious 95]

Well is a known fact man, something that is observed so

And in another view the more contact sure do more damage, the same principal if you punch a wall and leave you're hand there you'll suffer more from it but if you punch and immediately take you're hand out you suffer less from it, or if you take a knife and quickly pass on you're tissue you will suffer some amount of damage, but if you pass with the same pressure but slower you can get more tissue separation

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but that's nonsense :confused:

Permanent and temporary cavitation cause very different biological effects. The effects of a permanent cavity are fairly obvious. A hole through the heart will cause loss of pumping efficiency, loss of blood, and eventual cardiac arrest. A hole through the liver or lung will be similar, with the lung shot having the added effect of reducing blood oxygenation; these effects however are generally slower to arise than damage to the heart. A hole through the brain can cause instant unconsciousness and will likely kill the recipient. A hole through the spinal cord will instantly interrupt the nerve signals to and from some or all extremities, disabling the target and in many cases also resulting in death (as the nerve signals to and from the heart and/or lungs are interrupted by a shot high in the chest or to the neck). By contrast, a hole through an arm or leg which hits only muscle will cause a great deal of pain but is unlikely to be fatal, unless one of the large blood vessels (femoral or brachial arteries, for example) is also severed in the process.

The effects of temporary cavitation are less well understood, due to a lack of a test material identical to living tissue. Studies on the effects of bullets typically are based on experiments using ballistic gelatin, in which temporary cavitation causes radial tears where the gelatin was stretched. Although such tears are visually engaging, some animal tissues (other than bone or liver) are more elastic than gelatin.[citation needed] In most cases, temporary cavitation is unlikely to cause anything more than a bruise. Some speculation states that nerve bundles can be damaged by temporary cavitation, creating a stun effect, but this has not been confirmed.

One exception to this is when a very powerful temporary cavity intersects with the spine. In this case, the resulting blunt trauma can slam the vertebrae together hard enough to either sever the spinal cord, or damage it enough to knock out, stun, or paralyze the target. For instance, in the shootout between eight FBI agents and two bank robbers on April 11, 1986 in Miami, Florida (see FBI Miami shootout, 1986), Special Agent Gordon McNeill was struck in the neck by a high-velocity .223 bullet fired by Michael Platt. While the bullet did not directly contact the spine, and the wound incurred was not ultimately fatal, the temporary cavitation was sufficient to render SA McNeill paralyzed for several hours.

Temporary cavitation can also cause the tearing of tissues if a very large amount of force is involved. The tensile strength of muscle ranges roughly from 1 to 4 MPa (145 to 580 lbf/in2), and minimal damage will result if the pressure exerted by the temporary cavitation is below this. Gelatin and other less elastic media have much lower tensile strengths, thus they exhibit more damage after being struck with the same amount of force. At typical handgun velocities, bullets will create temporary cavities with much less than 1 MPa of pressure, and thus are incapable of causing damage to elastic tissues which they do not directly contact.

Core-locked rifle bullets that strike a major bone (such as a femur) can expend their entire energy into the surrounding tissue, causing it to take on a gelled consistency as the cellular structure is destroyed. The struck bone is commonly shattered at the point of impact.

High velocity fragmentation can also increase the effect of temporary cavitation. The fragments sheared from the bullet cause many small permanent cavities around the main entry point. The main mass of the bullet can then cause a truly massive amount of tearing as the perforated tissue is stretched.

Whether a person or animal will be incapacitated (i.e. "stopped") when shot, depends on a large number of factors, including physical, physiological, and psychological effects.

As you guys like to use wikipedia as a source

Basically what that says, is that low-velocity projectiles do less damage than high-velocity projectiles.

Slow projectiles are unable to do damage to the tissue they do not directly come into contact with, they create temporary cavitations to the tissue, which in most cases causes only a bruise, as stated in that wall-of-text.

While a high-velocity projectile isn't able to transfer all, or even near all of its energy to the target, it still transfers a lot more than a slow, under-penetrating one.

[maturin 12]

While you guys saying that the kinetic energy decreases over time/distance, you are absolutely right with that.

When Ckrauslo says that slower projectiles usually do more devastating damage (to the unprotected body, that is!), he's also right. The explanation (or a good part of it) is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power#Energy_transfer

To give an example on over-/underpenetration:

A FMJ bullet at high speed may crush a ribcage with a clean hole, when it's passing through the body and leave a small exit wound, and as long it penetrates no vital organs it may not have a severe (immediately life-threatening) impact on the wounded. On the other hand, if a bullet with lower speed hits the ribcage or - let's say a rib - at a certain angle, it may detour into one or even multiple vital organs and wreak havoc on the target.

Sorry, but a Wikipedia article on the unknown-to-physics phenomenon of energy transfer is an even worse source than the History Channel. And an article of stopping power is essentially fan fiction for the book of life.

A high velocity FMJ bullet can also deviate and bounce off ribs, detour, whatever. Also, the article mentioning irrelevant factors like the construction of the bullet just make it more apparent that they're trying to make invalid arguments, like attributing the lethality of hollowpoints to the low velocity of impact from a .45 or something.

I will not deny outright that slow bullets can cause greater harm, because I remember some data on that point relating to 18th century naval grapeshot, but the burden of proof is on the other side here, and so far we've seen nothing worth reading.

[instagoat 133]

Are you guys seriously talking about the exact hydrodynamic and kinetic effects of bullets on the body? With massive walls of text that have no bearing on gameplay at all? Srsly.

With the rvmat plates out of the question now, the only thing missing is wound animations.

Limping, loss of control over the weapon, pain cringing, react-to-hit animations. An example here (Can't set it to the timestamp, go to 2:34 to see what I mean.):

Only thing that matters is the 3 seconds following the 2:34 seconds mark in the video. The rest is run o the mill accessibility.

To explain what happens in the video, instead of a twitch, there would be an actual animation where the player could continue to move but his view was thrown out of aim and alignment, and would come back upon recovery (You can tell that he's hit from the obvious blobs on the screen.).

Limping of various degrees. VBS2 example, shown often before, here (0:29 seconds in.):

I am not asking that this be implemented from the VBS2 platform. My point of view is that instead of a prohibitively complex medical system with gameplay stopping mechanics, proper wounding animations can do enough to affect the player and add dimension to the role of the medic ingame. The scaling of the wounding system would need to be addressed, as well as the bleeding mechanic (enabled by default.)

[Kirill 1]

I want to draw attention to a big problem! Bullet after breaking through walls - have a very low capacity. Example: A soldier in a vest can get more 20 hits 6.5mm shots in the back! See screenshots.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=17189

Civil very resistant to bullets the same!

[maturin 12]

Because at that point they're not bullets anymore. More like buckshot after breaking up during penetration and lazily tumbling all over each other.

[fraczek 4]

Thanks Instagoat. I was afraid we would be reading more walls of text quoted from wikipedia by people with no understanding of basic physics ("accumulates kinetic energy [sic!]" because it arces more). Lets get back to Arma please. Since detailed simulation of plates is out of question for now (just for now hopefuly), what would benefit the gameplay best?

1) grenadier vests being better than EOD is, as many noted, ridiculous.

2) we desperately need a simulation of being hit ineffectively (in the plate). Just how much it should be is up for discussion. Microsecobd flinching is clearly not enough (current situation). Falling down after every shot ragdolling would be too much probably. A random "shock" factor should be introduced, IMHO. So a soldier being shot ineffectively (torso ie let's say it hit the plate) could either jus flinch a bit, be more disoriented, shellshocked, or fall down. Perhaps even a small chance of bypassing the plate and going in right next to it. All weighed by caliber of course.

Essentialy, a pseudorandom reaction weighed by armour and caliber/energy (ie point blank vs 500m). That would give the game a much needed immersion.

Note, depending on caliber, energy, some shots should aleays be fatal/incapacitating.

[fraczek 4]

Btw, about the "accumulates energy" thing, yes, AK bullets can be deadly when fired into air during a celebration. It's a well teached fact to any NGO worker who was in Africa/Middle East to not sleep on the roof during hot summer nights. But even fired straight up (in celebration), AK rounds came down with max about the energy of a 9mm round or less. Which can (and often is, unfortunately) be lethal, but it's much less than the initial energy.

[maturin 12]

You can do the math and prove that an AK round propelled by gravity alone is completely harmless, no matter how far it falls.

However, just because the vertical momentum has run out and the bullet has fallen back to earth doesn't mean that the horizontal velocity has been depleted. Most of the bullets supposedly fired straight up in the air are actually being fired (due to carelessness and recoil) at very large angles. They're being lobbed like howitzer shells, so when they come down, they still have lethal amounts of velocity.

[fraczek 4]

The best thing would be if this "shock" variable is tied to morale (already implemented although AFAIK not used much in vanilla). A low morale soldier could react more to ineffecive shots. Up for discussion :)

[Kirill 1]

Because at that point they're not bullets anymore. More like buckshot after breaking up during penetration and lazily tumbling all over each other.

What do you mean? The width of a brick wall - half old brick! Bullet may or may not lose the good aerodynamics and shape. And if we are talking about areas unprotected by armor - it does not matter in most cases. And if we're talking about gypsum concrete ... this is ridiculous.

[maturin 12]

What do you mean? The width of a brick wall - half old brick! Bullet may or may not lose the good aerodynamics and shape. And if we are talking about areas unprotected by armor - it does not matter in most cases. And if we're talking about gypsum concrete ... this is ridiculous.

Those are very thick walls there. Look at the trajectory of the bullets: they are dropping faster than they would if you just threw a handful of them at the soldier. If you use Dyslecxi's bullet-tracing script, I'm sure you'll find that all those rounds have like 10% of muzzle velcity, down in the less-than-lethal range.

If you penetrate a little less material, they will stay plenty lethal.

[Kirill 1]

Those are very thick walls there. Look at the trajectory of the bullets: they are dropping faster than they would if you just threw a handful of them at the soldier. If you use Dyslecxi's bullet-tracing script, I'm sure you'll find that all those rounds have like 10% of muzzle velcity, down in the less-than-lethal range.

If you penetrate a little less material, they will stay plenty lethal.

But it is a problem of the game, this is not the problem of reality) Subtotal - penetration implemented in the game, but it is meaningless (main ammunition for assault rifles - are useless).

[maturin 12]

But it is a problem of the game, this is not the problem of reality) Subtotal - penetration implemented in the game, but it is meaningless (main ammunition for assault rifles - are useless).

But it's not. 99% of the time you can cause casualties with just a few bullets. You've just gone and found the exact distance and materials were the bullets are penetrating, but barely.

It's unrealistic to expect that the game is going to simulate the terminal ballistics of every possible velocity from 5 m/s to 350 m/s.