Body armor

[scrim 1]

Yes and no. IRL there are many instances of people taking several AK hits to their trauma plates and mostly just falling over, but adrenaline keeps them focused on other things.

However, as I've stated before, some things need to be balanced, and that would be one of them. Until a small piece of shrapnel in your arm renders you combat ineffective in 95% of all cases, I think it's quite reasonable to, whilst preventing actual damage, subject the player to simulated pain, daze, etc. when hit by an assault rifle.

[artemas 1]

The problem is again one that was demonstrated in OFRR, which is continually proving that it is more of a trailblazer than BIS. If you got shot, you'd be forced to run through a several second long animation where you regain composure, etc. While fine in medium or long range firefights, the knockback in close quarters was pretty unfun. If you got shot first, it was basically game over, as you lost the ability to move or shoot. The old 'counterstrike' style of stagger would be more easily controlled, but i'm not a huge fan. So there are definitely precedents in other games, but maintaining some degree of control for the player is important. Ideally, a stagger wherein you can maintain some element of control.

[metalcraze 290]

So what you are saying - even OFP RR is more realistic than ArmA3 in this regard? Amazing.

[Necramonium 10]

The thing that bothers me the most is, that AI, with extended armor turned on, and that is for most of the servers, you shoot them, you see their body getting hit and their response is, "oh, a mosquito bite! I better patch up and stay here while more mosquito's are attacking me!" I wish BI would have put some more effort in better AI, because i haven't seen it change since the first Operation Flashpoint! Even COD has better AI at the moment. Maybe they should have a meeting with the DayZ team seeing they made some nice improvements on the AI in their future full release.

[instagoat 133]

The thing that bothers me the most is, that AI, with extended armor turned on, and that is for most of the servers, you shoot them, you see their body getting hit and their response is, "oh, a mosquito bite! I better patch up and stay here while more mosquito's are attacking me!" I wish BI would have put some more effort in better AI, because i haven't seen it change since the first Operation Flashpoint! Even COD has better AI at the moment. Maybe they should have a meeting with the DayZ team seeing they made some nice improvements on the AI in their future full release.

The DayZ AI improvement is that they threw out Arma's AI and replaced it with one that can only do two things essentially: Detect and follow a player, and avoid obstacles. I don't know how that's an improvement with regards to the abilities an opposing and friendly soldier AI for Arma needs.

[celery 8]

This might come as news, but body armor is simulated in Arma 3, hence the mysterious survival from many hits to the center of mass that many have been reporting. A normal rifleman takes less damage from shots than a "light" rifleman who has no vest. However, the simulation is done on a unit class basis, not vest basis, and the armor seems to extend to all body parts. Another caveat is that the system seems to be unable to deal with damage thresholds, i.e. every projectile deals some amount of damage, even if it would be completely stopped by the armor in real life.

To DIY, put the following line in the init box of a unit:

this disableAI "ANIM";this addEventHandler ["HandleDamage", {if (_this select 1 == "") then {hintSilent str (_this select 2)}}]

The body parts for the if statement are "" (for main damage), "head", "body", "hands" and "legs".

[frederf 0]

That's some good info there. I was wondering if clothing items changed the protection.

[instagoat 133]

This might come as news, but body armor is simulated in Arma 3, hence the mysterious survival from many hits to the center of mass that many have been reporting. A normal rifleman takes less damage from shots than a "light" rifleman who has no vest. However, the simulation is done on a unit class basis, not vest basis, and the armor seems to extend to all body parts. Another caveat is that the system seems to be unable to deal with damage thresholds, i.e. every projectile deals some amount of damage, even if it would be completely stopped by the armor in real life.

To DIY, put the following line in the init box of a unit:

this disableAI "ANIM";this addEventHandler ["HandleDamage", {if (_this select 1 == "") then {hintSilent str (_this select 2)}}]

The body parts for the if statement are "" (for main damage), "head", "body", "hands" and "legs".

Pretty much what I suspected. Any Idea why it isn't done using simulated plates in the fire geometry of the vests, using the new penetration code and rvmats? This mathematical solution generalizing damage over the whole body is a step forward, but a small one compared to actual bodyarmor protection using "physical" plates.

Edit: Also, do I get this right: Wether you use a tactical bandoleer, a crye cage or a greenfor chicom plate carrier doesn't matter, the unit itself determines damage modificator? That's... not very impressive.

[Bucketnate 10]

there is armor in the game. Vests and helmets can protect you from damage

[no use for a name 0]

The armor simulation is there, but the reaction/wounding isn't:

How does someone take a bullet to the chest at near-point blank and "flinch" like they tripped over a curb?

Vote!

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=14537

[scrim 1]

Ehm, that's one shot that seems to have hit the shoulder/upper arm, and then two shots that hit the legs, followed by one miss, and then a single killing shot. Hardly armour simulation.

[celery 8]

Ehm, that's one shot that seems to have hit the shoulder/upper arm, and then two shots that hit the legs, followed by one miss, and then a single killing shot. Hardly armour simulation.

Wherever a unit is hit, it also gets main damage from it. When the main damage reaches a threshold, the unit dies.

[scrim 1]

Yes, of course. But it still doesn't seem to indicate any sort of armour, let alone proper armour simulation. That seems to be on par with the levels of damage a unit could take in A2 without dying.

[metalcraze 290]

More damage. They just beefed up general HP and it's very unnatural considering that 6.5mm also deals more damage than 5.56 mm which took you out in 2 shots in ArmA2.

If anything the end result is that ArmA3 is more like GRAW where soldiers were beefed up shedding realism.

[celery 8]

Yes, of course. But it still doesn't seem to indicate any sort of armour, let alone proper armour simulation. That seems to be on par with the levels of damage a unit could take in A2 without dying.

You'd need an unarmored unit class as a comparison. They die more easily.

[-Gews- 1]

It's not an armor simulation, it's just more hitpoints for certain body areas.

Example from ArmA2, an enemy Russian soldier with body armor could take much more Makarov shots than an unarmored Takistani warlord.

However BOTH units still took damage from Makarov shots, the Russian just had a tougher torso, etc. An actual armor simulation would prevent damage to the Russian when the armor blocked the bullet.

[celery 8]

The fact of the matter is that a soldier takes less damage than a civilian does, i.e. there is a rudimentary armor factor there. The only pertinent difference between a soldier and a civilian that I could find is the HitPoints class with different armor ratings. Note that "hit point" is a synonym for different body parts, not hitpoints as in health points.

http://browser.six-projects.net/configclasses/CfgVehicles%3EB_Soldier_base_F/config?version=72

http://browser.six-projects.net/configclasses/CfgVehicles%3ECivilian/config?version=72

[metalcraze 290]

Yeah but it has nothing to do with armor simulation.

[celery 8]

Yeah but it has nothing to do with armor simulation.

It is a way to simulate armor. Simulation doesn't imply a certain level of depth or fidelity: you can simulate a clash between two role-playing characters with the roll of a die.

What you probably mean to say is that the armor simulation sucks.

[Beagle 684]

Really? The base level III standard is that it must survive at least 6 .308 rounds.

Level 3 is only for lead core ammunition at 50 meters. The problem with all vest including level 4 is stil that the impulse of a fast and heavy (the idea behind 6.8mm) projectile can kill you inside the vest without penetration the same way as a 9mm round to the helmet has a good chance to bring you down instantly due to neck spine trauma. The same procedure was once used in mediaval time against full plate Knights...if you can't pierce it just use a large hammer. Edited September 19, 2013 by Beagle

[becubed 24]

Level 3 is only for lead core ammunition at 50 meters. The problem with all vest including level 4 is stil that the impulse of a fast and heavy (the idea behind 6.8mm) projectile can kill you inside the vest without penetration the same way as a 9mm round to the helmet has a good chance to bring you down instantly due to neck spine trauma. The same procedure was once used in mediaval time against full plate Knights...if you can't pierce it just use a large hammer.

Do you have anything about this I can look at?

My understanding is that blunt trauma is really only an issue with a flexible vest not a rigid one as the plates effectively spread the impact out over the entire surface area of the plate, this would be sufficient to prevent any form of life threatening trauma. Oh and Lvl3 will stop 7.62 FMJ ammo at the muzzle

[Beagle 684]

Do you have anything about this I can look at?

My understanding is that blunt trauma is really only an issue with a flexible vest not a rigid one as the plates effectively spread the impact out over the entire surface area of the plate, this would be sufficient to prevent any form of life threatening trauma. Oh and Lvl3 will stop 7.62 FMJ ammo at the muzzle

And that up to 4000 Joules used in military weapons will not just dissipate and that's the problem for you inside the armour. it is hard to obtain this info in the net as most cases of injuries are classified to the public but I have my informations from a medical officer I'm to be well acquainted with for 7 years that served two deployments in Masar-e Scharif field hospital...the conclusion is and was...don't believe what they tell you at home...the protective gear is by far not as good in reality like it looks on paper, neither is the armour rating of vehicles. Edited September 19, 2013 by Beagle

[13islucky 10]

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't all NATO forces equipped with Trauma Plates (rigid inserts inside the vests)? If I am not mistaken these are for the very purpose of mitigating blunt force trauma on the individual wearing it. I'm fairly confident that the survivability of the wearer vs a shot would be moderately high.

[scrim 1]

Level 3 is only for lead core ammunition at 50 meters. The problem with all vest including level 4 is stil that the impulse of a fast and heavy (the idea behind 6.8mm) projectile can kill you inside the vest without penetration the same way as a 9mm round to the helmet has a good chance to bring you down instantly due to neck spine trauma. The same procedure was once used in mediaval time against full plate Knights...if you can't pierce it just use a large hammer.

Are we really going to have this nonsense again? Care to explain the quote from War about nearly half a dozen soldiers being hit multiple times in their vests and helmets from less than 10m, without a single one dying from that supposed danger of non penetrating rounds?

Also, care to explain why pretty much every front line soldier would be making this known back at home, after more than 10 years of 2 wars being fought at the same time? Last time I checked we'd made it past the technology and laws of WW1, when the military was the one and only source for information about how things were working.

13: Yep. The entire vest is covered with soft armour (Kevlar), and outside that there are trauma plates. The British use larger plates that are shaped differently depending on wether they're to cover the front or back, to increase the area they cover. Americans wear identical plates to the front and rear, but increase the covered area by having smaller plates in side pockets in the vests. And since the soft armour of these vests are good enough to stop pistol rounds on their own without causing more than bruises, they're just fine when it comes to dealing with the power of a stopped AK round that in turn is also distributed over a large trauma plate.

Edited September 19, 2013 by scrim

[rye1 22]

The trauma of such an impact can cause someone to die - plain and simple. The people you talk of, one in particular who got shot in Iraq by the sniper who filmed a number of his kills, recovered successfully after a medical intervention - due to the fact he had fractured ribs. A rib can become a penetrating object; it may damage other internal organs or protrude from the body - never mind multiple broken ribs, other associated fractures or a flail segment issues can cause. Abdominal and thoracic cavity bleeding and associated haemotomas can lead to many connecting issues associated with both loss of blood volume, content and organ function. In reality you wouldn't argue it if it happened to you, in game any kind of system leading to such responses will never occur--the medical system in my opinion will always stay basic. The best they could do was simulate some kind of 'breathless' state, lowered stamina regeneration and overall effectiveness after being hit--non-penetrating.

Think about the organs in the area and what blunt force trauma actually does. Your spleen, your liver. Two major organs that if damaged can bleed heavily -- leading to such vital intervention procedures as embolization. Pancreas, kidneys, heart, lungs, vital vessels. Beagle's got it exactly right dudes.

A TRAUMA PLATE is an old-school plate designed purely to protect the heart, thus reducing the "one shot heart stopper" effect (and hence why even low-cut armour is worn high to protect the heart and aortic arch). A BALLISTIC plate will stop rounds up to its failure point, but they're not perfect. There's a beautiful distinction therefore between crush and tear injuries.

The great thing about the empirical evidence boasted is that it's not a human body. Tests with ballistic gel can be wrong, often companies promote either falsified 'evidence' or bias evidence made so by the way they've actually conducted the study (off p-values and CI's). Evidence just means more likely so doesn't cover all the ground. When you look for documents on wound ballistics you have to be selective on what you stick to, and be broad on what you read. Armour with no one behind it, stuffed on a mannequin, in an air-conditioned firing range, survives 6 shots. Congratulations. DON'T TRUST IT.

See this website for more information: http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

Doctor Gary K. Roberts, Wound Ballistic Expert, has an account there and regularly posts. He has some stickied threads that are very interesting.

And this is where the argument of reality has to stop. Because it's not getting anywhere. Reality that can be implemented (possibly):

- Deflections occur frequently in firefights, even with crappy webbing and magazines in the way.

- Breathless state, for example like GTA5, would be an interesting proposal once hit. Imitating some amount of combat effectiveness and ineffectiveness.

- Knocking the wind out of someone can bring someone to their knees or make them get low - that doesn't mean rounds take people off their feet but balance can be affected.

- Knocks the weapon off-line when hit (We have this in our modification Combat Medical System--works pretty darn well!).

- Harder to move once hit, sluggish temporarily.

- Custom animations for certain hit locations and boxes, i.e. feet, legs, hands as seen in such titles as GTA 4 and 5. It's visual feedback that you've hit someone or that you are hit. I remember in games like 'The Getaway' your character used to hold his stomach and moan in pain, bleeding - even to the point of every now and then spitting out blood.

- Differentiating penetrating and non-penetrating with associated injuries or problems.

- Lowered perception when hit; be it red (blood) colouring and effects on the screen, white (pain) or black (decreasing conscious state) are all good ways to absorb the player into the realm of ARMA and actually communicate that he has been hit and in what regard. Quite like in some FPS games where blood, dirt and rain drops kick up onto the screen.

- In-depth medical system (unlikely) that replicates better control over injuries and therefore increases the number or type of injuries taken.

- Overall an improved hit detection and damage dispersion system. It would be great if damage in the toe didn't perpetuate across the body, if the hit detection was reliable enough to realize point of impact; entry and exit. You could a lot of things with such scripting, especially around the extent of damage.

- Armour-piercing and other types (HE, HEI, HEAPI, RAUFOSS) of ammunition to defeat armour thereby going out of the way of any 'extended armour' errors or perceived problems.

- A HUD or other visual (unlikely) representation of armour, its effectiveness or its loss. May be too arcadey.

There's lots of ideas out there, the likelihood is that none are implemented but those are my thoughts. Whatever said. The reality discussion has to calm down a little bit, and for God's sakes the misconceptions have to stop.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Rye