Catalonia: is Europe’s next independent state?

[bardosy 158]

An other part of Europe's march for autonomy:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/10/27/thousands-of-ethnic-hungarians-call-for-autonomy/3282145/

[mistyronin 1181]

Good link bardosy, thanks :)

[HKFlash 9]

I lived in different cities down there ( Barcelona, Madrid, Murcia, Toledo, Torrelavega ), also in other countries like Italy, UK, or now in Finland. And my perception is that in Spain, specially in the castilian-speaking zones there is huge aggressivity against anything not castilian.

The Castillians think themselves superior to other Iberian cultures. Your impression is correct Ronin.

Now... into the trench!

[barbolani 198]

The Castillians think themselves superior to other Iberian cultures. Your impression is correct Ronin.

Now... into the trench!

Oh my god. I may consider myself castilian and let me tell you I don't know nobody with a useful brain thinking this.... I repeat: In castilla there are idiots, lots of them, but same as everywhere.

@Ronin: Yes, I am Spanish, and neutral. Just because I don't give a shit on Independence, nation or whatever. Marc Márquez is a good kid, but not an example for this discussion.

And, about the castilians, let me tell you something. Of course it is an opinion. It has been wide spreaded an anti catalonian opinion. The common folk follows it, but, not only in Castilla. Almost all around spain (Andalucia is not Castilla). As idiots are everywhere, those idiots like this way of thinking, becuase it is easy.

But, just a question: who's the people who benefits from that? Can you imagine a best independentist slogan than "they, the rest, hate us"? "They are anti-us" wonderful! Works perfectly!

All that I am saying is, independentist politicians are the same shit than the other ones, smell the same, and want the same: power. The difference is the way they use to achieve it.

About the language, sorry, I laugh my ass off. What you haven't read is the same author discussion about the word "cojones" (bollocks): http://www.enorihuela.com/Pasatiempos/cojones.html

Castilian is not specially aggressive. Its is the most richful language I know regarding bad words (agressive and non aggressive ones, insults, or not). In English almost everything is just fuck + word... Spanish is poetry compared to this.

But here using a bad word does not mean aggression / hate (of course, when they are, we use LOTS of bad words).

Example: we send something / someone to the shit. When is someone (Vete a la mierda) is aggressive, but, when is just lost, or far away, we say the same "se ha ido a la mierda". Also, we shit on everything, when it is something relative to you, it is aggressive (Me cago en tu padre: I shit on your father) but when is to something else, it is just an exclamation, a surprise, I am amazed, I'm hurt... lots of things. We shit even in God (do not do it in the street).

Sorry about De la Cierva, you are right, I was thinking about submarine, invented by Isaac Peral, not helis...

[spooky lynx 73]

All that independence and cultural identity fuss is popular just because of economical problems. Just like in Russia. It's always easier to blame somebody else - central government etc.

[barbolani 198]

All that independence and cultural identity fuss is popular just because of economical problems. Just like in Russia. It's always easier to blame somebody else - central government etc.

Totally agree.

[mistyronin 1181]

And, about the castilians, let me tell you something. Of course it is an opinion. It has been wide spreaded an anti catalonian opinion. The common folk follows it, but, not only in Castilla. Almost all around spain (Andalucia is not Castilla). As idiots are everywhere, those idiots like this way of thinking, becuase it is easy.

But, just a question: who's the people who benefits from that? Can you imagine a best independentist slogan than "they, the rest, hate us"? "They are anti-us" wonderful! Works perfectly!

Ok, then if that is just a catalan topic, why the hell the madrid taxi driver told me to go out of the taxi when he thought I was speaking catalan ( was italian )? Why in all the parts of Spain that I've lived, the most wide opinion was that catalans, basques, were the "cancer" of Spain; BTW I've heard the same from castilians regarding british and germans in the EU context.

I mean, your theory would have been nice if I have never been in Spain... but as I told you different times, I have; and the reality I saw in different villages of the spanish geography is quite different from the "ideal image" that you depict. BTW HKFlash shares my opinion and he lives also close to Spain.

Sorry about De la Cierva, you are right, I was thinking about submarine, invented by Isaac Peral, not helis...

So Isaac Peral y Caballero, who was born in 1851 in Cartagena, invented the submarine...

Then why in the American Revolution ( 75 years before ), the american "patriots" already used military submersibles... Or in Spain, the catalan Narcís Monturiol i Estarriol in 1859 used his first submarine, Ictineo, in the Barcelona's harbor....( when Isaac Peral was only 8 year old ). I think your education has been a bit biased in favor of castilian nationalism...

----------------------

NOTE: By Castile I mean the traditional / historical area of Castilan culture:

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wggerman/map/images/hapsburg.jpg (167 kB)

Edited November 5, 2013 by MistyRonin
Adding note.

[barbolani 198]

I mean, your theory would have been nice if I have never been in Spain... but as I told you different times, I have; and the reality I saw in different villages of the spanish geography is quite different from the "ideal image" that you depict. BTW HKFlash shares my opinion and he lives also close to Spain.

I could say the same for yours :) HKFlash lives in portugal, but it doesn not make him an spanish cultural advisor.

First, the explanation of the taxi issue: you found such an idiot person that cannot see the differences between italian and catalonian. So that's some kind of clue of what an asshole you found. After that, the thing of being kicked out from a cab because you speak whatever language is almost paranormal (I'm not meaning you lie).

I've never in this conversation tried to give you an "ideal image" of nothing. Indeed, the opposite. I said, thinking castilians are x or catalonians are y is one of the most stupid things you may say this week. And gets you closer and closer to the taxi driver you found.

If you wanna make some judgment about a country, you may do it about their history, the food, the technology...

Regarding Peral's invention I had to check the wiki, seems effectively it is not the first submarine boat, but it seems the first one with electric engine and with effective and practical use in warfare.

I am not a Castilian Nationalist, I dont give a shit about nations. I dont know any castilian nationalist. Indeed there is not castilian nationalism... that thing does not exist.

---------- Post added at 11:53 ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 ----------

Ok, then if that is just a catalan topic, why the hell the madrid taxi driver told me to go out of the taxi when he thought I was speaking catalan ( was italian )? Why in all the parts of Spain that I've lived, the most wide opinion was that catalans, basques, were the "cancer" of Spain; BTW I've heard the same from castilians regarding british and germans in the EU context.

Sorry for the doublé post. It is not a catalán topic, it is a topic, and as every topic, a dumb and useless thing.

"The most wide opinión"???? Man, I don't know in which snakepits you've been living in spain and with which kind of people you found, but let me tell you were extremely unlucky.

I am not meaning I've never Heard such things, of course I have. But I could bet you a 1000 € if I ask about "catalonians" to the first guy I meet in Madrid, he won't say such things.

[down8 30]

The Castillians think themselves superior to other Iberian cultures. Your impression is correct Ronin.

Now... into the trench!

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

There are assholes everywhere, but your generalization is false.

(I'm spanish from Madrid))

---------- Post added at 12:40 ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 ----------

Ok, then if that is just a catalan topic, why the hell the madrid taxi driver told me to go out of the taxi when he thought I was speaking catalan ( was italian )? Why in all the parts of Spain that I've lived, the most wide opinion was that catalans, basques, were the "cancer" of Spain; BTW I've heard the same from castilians regarding british and germans in the EU context.

I mean, your theory would have been nice if I have never been in Spain... but as I told you different times, I have; and the reality I saw in different villages of the spanish geography is quite different from the "ideal image" that you depict. BTW HKFlash shares my opinion and he lives also close to Spain.

So Isaac Peral y Caballero, who was born in 1851 in Cartagena, invented the submarine...

Then why in the American Revolution ( 75 years before ), the american "patriots" already used military submersibles... Or in Spain, the catalan Narcís Monturiol i Estarriol in 1859 used his first submarine, Ictineo, in the Barcelona's harbor....( when Isaac Peral was only 8 year old ). I think your education has been a bit biased in favor of castilian nationalism...

----------------------

NOTE: By Castile I mean the traditional / historical area of Castilan culture:

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wggerman/map/images/hapsburg.jpg (167 kB)

More generalizations. Arrogant people exist in any place.

I lived one year in London, and I found several stupid taxi drivers. But because of that I'm not claiming english people are assholes.

In fact I like english character, because they use to be very polite, kind and tolerant people.

[mistyronin 1181]

I am not a Castilian Nationalist, I dont give a shit about nations. I dont know any castilian nationalist. Indeed there is not castilian nationalism... that thing does not exist.

Are you sure that castilian nationalism doesn't exist?

BTW for me all the ones who think that castilian culture and language should be the main language and culture in all Spain because they think is superior to the others are extreme nationalists.

More generalizations. Arrogant people exist in any place.

I lived one year in London, and I found several stupid taxi drivers. But because of that I'm not claiming english people are assholes.

In fact I like english character, because they use to be very polite, kind and tolerant people.

Well, as I said in the previous posts I had lived and worked in different parts of Spain ( Murcia, Castilla, Madrid, Catalonia, Cantabria ) and it was the most common opinion in all the spanish speaking regions. As a foreigner I was always told about "esos separatistas/rojos" that try to steal our land and benefits; even a Guardia Civil told me about that when I was visiting Granada with the motorcycle ( without asking him anything ).

To me it even felt like if some spanish people when they saw a foreigner they had to introduce themselves and give a report of the political situation in the country ( here in Finland, no one would go and talk to a stranger ).

In Madrid city it was interesting because you could find people quite tolerant and also people really close-minded ( I lived first in Mirasierra close to La Vaguada Mall, and the awesome Rosco pizza, and later in Hoyo de Manzanares ), but in the villages nearby the second group were the most.

But again, that was my perception judging by all the years I lived in Spain; it's obvious that not everyone was like that, I've a lot of spaniard friends that are really nice, tolerant and intelligent.

Going back to topic, I still don't understand why simple democratic things, like a simple vote, are so hard in Spain. And what does people from all around the world think about the possible independence of Catalonia.

Edited November 6, 2013 by MistyRonin

[barbolani 198]

Are you sure that castilian nationalism doesn't exist?

Completely, it's like you found the "Justice for the Aplle Pie Party"...

"esos separatistas / rojos" where did you worked? on an svastica pin Factory? Volkswagen in 1040?

Even the Guardia Civil comment is completely out.

I understand, it's what you've seen, and it's your opinión. But my answer to your question is NO, people from Castilla, generally speaking does not think they are superior to anybody. What people does not like is the typical reaction to spearatism (I dont give a shit).

[mistyronin 1181]

Catalonia is today again in the front news of the western media with the decision of the independence referendum's date.

Wall Street Journal

BBC

CNN

Le Monde ( french )

El Pais (spanish)

Reuters

Edited December 12, 2013 by MistyRonin

[wipman 1]

Hi, i doubt that Cataluña ever gets to be a country, our laws (im spanish) don't allow it AFAIK and much less our political class, our "democrazy" stopped it's grow and development on the late 80's or early 90's so things like referendums or things like that are nearly forbidden as we're on the hands of the sons and grandsons of the ones that won our civil war; that's from were our actual political and law problems come from, we'd never really changed "the back stage", just washed the face of the theatre.

But all that is just a part, maybe the root of the problem, apparently... the region of Cataluña has a big debt, created by their politicians, the same ones that are now in charge there... so "the best way" to aboid to explain that (the debt) to their citizens, was to create a big smoke courtain and in a country with our past... this independence issue will create a big enough smoke courtain to keep the political class life level and in case of loose pressent themselves as "the victims" of a (for sure) not participative political system that came out from the relaxing of the economic powerful class of the regime.

In any case... most of the population in Cataluña don't want to be a country, just more decission power; it's estimated that about the 34% of the population there wants to be a country. Give 'em the right to choose, if that estimation is right... will stop the fabricated debate, but will open the door to other regions as Euzkadi, Asturias, Galicia.. and some others for do the same referendum among their citizens, something that our political class is not willing to deal with; maybe because of a "famous motto" of the dictatorship that they assume as own, which was "una grande y libre" (= one big and free). As spanish... im not worryed about this issue, i think that they should have the right to choose if they want to be a country or keep being part of spain; rightnow we and they have much bigger issues to deal with, the most important one IMO to change our laws, political system (politicians included) and work system. The 64% of the population between 16 and 25yo are jobless, between the 20 and the 32% of the population is in the poberty, we're the 3rd country of the world with smaller growth rate; spain is dieing slowly, to be more precise... spain is being killed (IMO, by our political class), Cataluña included. Let's C ya

[mistyronin 1181]

In any case... most of the population in Cataluña don't want to be a country, just more decission power; it's estimated that about the 34% of the population there wants to be a country. Give 'em the right to choose, if that estimation is right... will stop the fabricated debate, but will open the door to other regions as Euzkadi, Asturias, Galicia.. and some others for do the same referendum among their citizens, something that our political class is not willing to deal with; maybe because of a "famous motto" of the dictatorship that they assume as own, which was "una grande y libre" (= one big and free).

Interesting insight wipman. Thank you.

BTW Would you mind giving us a link of the source of that data ( the 34% )?

According to the spanish right-wing newspaper ABC ( news from last month ) the independence support in Catalonia is 54%.

[txalin 2]

The study from your link to ABC was done by the Catalonian goverment itself ;)

[Carvajal31 10]

Since I couldn't post a new thread due to me just joining, this seems the most appropriate place to ask this, even if it is bringing up a somewhat old and dead thread.

Regardless, I noticed that as one of the flag map markers there seems to be the estelada flag, my question is why? Cataluña isn't a nation as of today nor ever, Aragon was much much more than that, out of all the nations they could have added they decided to go with that?

Btw ronin, Artur Mas, the one who's all about breaking off from Spain lost seats/votes in the last election, Spain has always been different all around with its own charm, but that is what makes Spain, Spain. The "cancer" of Spain is the political classes, not the people (Except those who take arms and violence against the state, ex; Terra Lliure & ETA. And those who persecute business in Cataluña for not speaking catalan.) But this isn't why I came here, my question is above for BI. To me, it's an insult.

[papanowel 120]

Regardless, I noticed that as one of the flag map markers there seems to be the estelada flag, my question is why? Cataluña isn't a nation as of today nor ever, Aragon was much much more than that, out of all the nations they could have added they decided to go with that?

Arma 3 take place in 2035 and all the arma games have been set in an alternative world (called the armaverse), maybe Catalonia has become an independent state.

[mistyronin 1181]

Btw ronin, Artur Mas, the one who's all about breaking off from Spain lost seats/votes in the last election, Spain has always been different all around with its own charm, but that is what makes Spain, Spain. The "cancer" of Spain is the political classes, not the people (Except those who take arms and violence against the state, ex; Terra Lliure & ETA. And those who persecute business in Cataluña for not speaking catalan.) But this isn't why I came here, my question is above for BI. To me, it's an insult.

Interesting post to be the first one in this forums, welcome!

I believe that for one side BI can freely express as they want, and in their imaginarium can add whatever country they esteem opportune. BTW nation definition:

People whose common identity creates a psychological bond and a political community. Their political identity usually comprises such characteristics as a common language, culture, ethnicity, and history. More than one nation may comprise a state, but the terms nation, state, and country are often used interchangeably. A nation-state is a state populated primarily by the people of one nationality.

If you prefer:

Conjunto de personas de un mismo origen y que generalmente hablan un mismo idioma y tienen una tradición común.

Does catalans have a same origin, same history, same language and same traditions? Yes, ergo are a nation. Even the Spanish Constitution recognize that ( it calls them a nationality ).

The party of Artur Mas lose votes in the last elections that were gone to a more clear pro-independence parties. BTW I've been a lot of times in Catalonia, and never seen anyone bullied, not persecuted for using Spanish, I can't say the same from the rest of Spain about Catalans or supposed Catalans... ( If you read the previous posts in this thread you'll understand ). I suggest you watch the Salvados show from La Sexta were the former president of the Spanish Government Felipe Gonzalez talked with Catalonia's president Artur Mas; and what Spanish speakers that live in Catalonia say.

BTW Spain was born less than 300 years ago ( you can even read that in the new law about education from the Spain's Nationalist ruling Partido Popular ), before it was a bunch of different entities, Kingdoms, principalities, etc. each with their own laws, border, coin, army, etc. So it's quite normal that have different nations inside ( the main ones are represented in the Spain's seal: Kingdom of Aragon, Kingdom of Castille, Kingdom of Leon, Navarre and Granada ).

Where, Catalonia was one of the main parts of the Kingdom of Aragon, which was a confederation of entities. You just have to see the influence of the Catalan culture that is spread out in different of the actual Spanish Autonomies in ( Murcia, Valencia, Aragon, Catalonia and Balearic Islands ), also the whole country of Andorra, the South-East departments of France, and even a small territory in Italy.

Its even curious that you use the Spanish name for the territory, when we are in an English speaking forum; quite an interesting way to show your ideas.

[scottmillerukctrg 12]

Scotland comes first.

[Vixente 10]

Mother of the beautiful love!

“¡Madre del amor hermoso!†(Spanish expression of astonishment)

What a bunch of BS. Sorry but I had to say it.

If I were to live in Finland for say, about 10 years (and that is a lot) in different cities/regions the last thing I would do is get involved in a foreign country politics or history. Because I wouldn't have the right nor the knowledge to form a decent opinion. Even after having been there for years. I’m not a native, I haven’t studied there, didn’t grew there.

As a personal motto I often tell to myself: "Don't trust anyone, don't believe all that you read or hear, question everything". I try to apply that to everything, every day.

Many things have been and can be said here about this topic. But one thing is true, whether you like it or not, Catalonia is part of Spain, has been and will be. You can't just detach a region of a country because a part of its inhabitants just want to. You can't even accept a normal vote in a region when you know that there are a lot of absent people (a big percentage) that do not go to vote, which is BTW a big problem in this country. Even after that, the just thing to do is a global vote of all the regions in the country to determine whether or not one of them has the right to go independent.

In any case, I think this topic should be locked as all topics about politics of any country. I don't think this is the forum to speak about this. These are serious topics that can get people banned, confused or mislead.

I will only say one more thing, MistyRonin, I’m sorry but you are very wrong about a lot of things concerning Spain/Catalonia or its inhabitans. Please, stop.

[mistyronin 1181]

Many things have been and can be said here about this topic. But one thing is true, whether you like it or not, Catalonia is part of Spain, has been and will be.

As I can see you are a democrat. So no matter votes, the people, culture, history, anything. It's just God's word that says that a territory should remain inside a country? :rolleyes:

You can't just detach a region of a country because a part of its inhabitants just want to.

Aha, that's just happened with almost all the countries of the world post colonialism. We could make a long long list about the "regions" that have got its independence from Spain itself. But just to list the ones that did it in Europe this last 20 years: Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Georgia and Czech Republic ) . But besides that simple fact...

In any case, I think this topic should be locked as all topics about politics of any country. I don't think this is the forum to speak about this. These are serious topics that can get people banned, confused or mislead.

I will only say one more thing, MistyRonin, I’m sorry but you are very wrong about a lot of things concerning Spain/Catalonia or its inhabitans. Please, stop.

So because you don't like the topic, everyone should stop speaking about it. And you decide where are the places where serious topics can be spoken... ? Not even that, you even decide who is wrong or right, but without giving not even one argument. Impressive.

Take a look at the rules of the forum.

[[frl]myke 14]

In any case, I think this topic should be locked as all topics about politics of any country. I don't think this is the forum to speak about this. These are serious topics that can get people banned, confused or mislead.

Topic remains open (like the Syria or the North Korea thread, just to name 2 examples) as long people can discuss peacefully. No need to explain us how to do our job. Thank you.

[mistyronin 1181]

A really good and interesting article:

( Wall Street Journal ) Plain-Talking Historian Is a Force Behind Catalan Independence Push

In Spain's button-down political culture, the burly, bearded Mr. Junqueras is known for his directness, especially when talking about what would happen if the central government makes good on threats to block a nonbinding referendum on independence planned for the region on Nov. 9.

"When there are two million people in the streets of Barcelona for one, two, three days, what will the public opinion in Europe say?" he said. "What will financial markets say?"

Those aren't idle questions given the economic importance of Catalonia, which produces a quarter of Spain's exports.

The independence movement asserts that central authorities in Madrid drain Catalonia of tax revenue without offering sufficient deference to its language and culture. Spanish officials say they have offered plenty of assistance to Catalonia during Europe's economic crisis and that the planned referendum would be unconstitutional.

Mr. Junqueras said Republican Left is in no hurry to enter the government. Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy's staunch opposition to an independence referendum is only helping to generate more supporters for the cause, he said.

"There are many more citizens in favor of democracy than of independence," he said. "To the extent that the ( Spanish ) government doesn't allow these citizens favoring democracy to vote, it's converting them into citizens who favor independence."

[war_lord 934]

Aha, that's just happened with almost all the countries of the world post colonialism. We could make a long long list about the "regions" that have got its independence from Spain itself. But just to list the ones that did it in Europe this last 20 years: Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Georgia and Czech Republic ) . But besides that simple fact...

And all of those countries are doing so well, paradises like Kosovo and Bosnia.

[mistyronin 1181]

And all of those countries are doing so well, paradises like Kosovo and Bosnia.

If you compare with what was their previous situations, indeed, they have improved a lot.

How many of them are taking steps back to the previous situation?