Scopes with implemented rangefinder

[metalcraze 290]

Sorry metalcraze but I don't understand your point. The scopes exist, they provide constant updates at an accuracy of +-1/m. How is this any different?

They don't provide such accuracy at 2km+ with pixel precision (remember - the longer the distance the harder it is to determine distance to smaller objects due to beam dispersion and in ArmA there's no such problem) and instant updates. They also work a lot worse in non-overcast daylight conditions IRL but there would be no difference in ArmA3

Sniper rifle shots aren't affected by wind, dedicated rangefinders we have are already anything but realistic - add a rangefinder into the scopes and you might as well cut out ballistics from sniper rifles and make them hitscan since there will be zero difference.

Sniping should take skill not the Instant Gratification button which is exactly how it already is now save for the need to take out a range finder and check the distance. Adding such scopes will be nothing but dumbing it down further since BIS will not bother to represent them in a realistic way.

Edited July 30, 2013 by metalcraze

[liquidpinky 11]

Would take the fun out of scanning for targets, getting range, switching to gun and adjust sights and firing at target.

I addmittedly will use the Laser Designator so I can scan in thermal, but the process is the same and you have to make sure you identify your target correctly as well. Dont want any freindly fire incedents.

All built into one scope would be pull trigger, yawn, pull trigger, yawn, etc, etc.

[Petrov 10]

In 20 years from now? Yeah they probably will have a dedicated LRF built in, they have something workable now.

You want to bring some balance to the range finder? Make it work like it works in real life.

You bounce a laser off some one and they are wearing NVGS, it lets them instantly know that they just had a beam bounced off them and the direction of the beam.

Or you know just not have a built in range finder for the sake of of and balance?

[becubed 24]

Sniping should take skill not the Instant Gratification button which is exactly how it already is now save for the need to take out a range finder and check the distance. Adding such scopes will be nothing but dumbing it down further since BIS will not bother to represent them in a realistic way.

But technology is already taking the skill out of it. There are many sights that perform ballistic calculations matched to the load that you have and then automatically adjust the sights. Some of them also account for temp, angle of shot, barometeric pressure and warn you if the rifle is canted. The current marine laser rangefinder is good to 10Km with an error of 10m and can range once a second. You are saying that we should ignore current technology in a game set 20 years in the future and then people complain that the game isn't realistic.

Read this and tell my why hit scanning isn't a pretty close appoximation.

[metalcraze 290]

But technology is already taking the skill out of it. There are many sights that perform ballistic calculations matched to the load that you have and then automatically adjust the sights. Some of them also account for temp, angle of shot, barometeric pressure and warn you if the rifle is canted. The current marine laser rangefinder is good to 10Km with an error of 10m and can range once a second. You are saying that we should ignore current technology in a game set 20 years in the future and then people complain that the game isn't realistic.

Read this and tell my why hit scanning isn't a pretty close appoximation.

They will never take human skill out of it. There's never a tech that works perfectly otherwise humans wouldn't need to control those weapon systems or control them sitting in a nice remote place while RC drones do all the job.

The current marine laser rangefinder is good to 10Km with an error of 10m and can range once a second.

Now compare that to ArmA implementation.

In any case why is it an excuse to dumb down ArmA3 further? All the other dumbing down that ArmA3 already suffered isn't enough?

[Petrov 10]

But technology is already taking the skill out of it. There are many sights that perform ballistic calculations matched to the load that you have and then automatically adjust the sights. Some of them also account for temp, angle of shot, barometeric pressure and warn you if the rifle is canted. The current marine laser rangefinder is good to 10Km with an error of 10m and can range once a second. You are saying that we should ignore current technology in a game set 20 years in the future and then people complain that the game isn't realistic.

Read this and tell my why hit scanning isn't a pretty close appoximation.

Range finders wont work too well in poor weather, lots of mirage and fog. Sights dont perform "ballistic" calculations, most give you a drop adjustment and after 500 yards it starts to change drastically depending on the conditions. Barometric pressure? That is done with a kestrel hand held weather station and you sure as hell not going to be attaching that to your rifle even 20 years from now.

Good for 10Km? Even if earth was flat, I would like to see you being able carry an optics package that can work/see that far. Some technology simply doesn't scale and other doesn't play well with recoil.

---------- Post added at 13:48 ---------- Previous post was at 13:45 ----------

They will never take human skill out of it. There's never a tech that works perfectly otherwise humans wouldn't need to control those weapon systems or control them sitting in a nice remote place while RC drones do all the job.

Now compare that to ArmA implementation.

In any case why is it an excuse to dumb down ArmA3 further? All the other dumbing down that ArmA3 already suffered isn't enough?

Why dumb it down? As a developer/ guy who wants to get paid I want my game accessible to as many people as possible. Not saying I agree with it, just the way things are.

Personally I had a LOT of fun with sniper/spotter team giving the sniper instant ranges and all that.

I hope they keep the laser range finder separate and make it visible with NVG's just like real life and that they would implement wind.

[becubed 24]

Sights dont perform "ballistic" calculations, most give you a drop adjustment and after 500 yards it starts to change drastically depending on the conditions. Barometric pressure? That is done with a kestrel hand held weather station and you sure as hell not going to be attaching that to your rifle even 20 years from now.

Guess there is a line of people waiting to sue Barrett for false advertising then.

Good for 10Km? Even if earth was flat, I would like to see you being able carry an optics package that can work/see that far.

I can't find a link for the FM for the AN/GVS-5 range finder but here is a list of the specs, note the range. I'm currently at work and have no trouble seeing buildings in the city from my building. According to google maps it's 13.5 km way. I must just have a better view distance set than you.

[Petrov 10]

Guess there is a line of people waiting to sue Barrett for false advertising then.

I can't find a link for the FM for the AN/GVS-5 range finder but here is a list of the specs, note the range. I'm currently at work and have no trouble seeing buildings in the city from my building. According to google maps it's 13.5 km way. I must just have a better view distance set than you.

BORS is not a signt it attaches to your scope, BORS doesnt do windage or ranging so you are still stuck with having to use a rangefinder, BORS doesnt do windage calculations either so it is back to dragging out the ballistic calculator.

Yeah I can bounce a beam off a building too, try bouncing it off a car or a human 13.5 in anything but perfect weather.

[becubed 24]

Sights dont perform "ballistic" calculations, most give you a drop adjustment and after 500 yards it starts to change drastically depending on the conditions. Barometric pressure? That is done with a kestrel hand held weather station and you sure as hell not going to be attaching that to your rifle even 20 years from now.

BORS is not a signt it attaches to your scope, BORS doesnt do windage or ranging so you are still stuck with having to use a rangefinder, BORS doesnt do windage calculations either so it is back to dragging out the ballistic calculator.

So, they market it so that you can attach it to the scope that you already own, all they are doing there is increasing their potential market. They could sell it with scope included it would just cost more. If they wanted to they could build it into the same houseing as the scope. It does ballistic calculations, it does do ranging, though not with a laser. It works through angle calculations from points selected by the user. The only factor that it misses on is windage. It is available now and it attaches to your rifle you don't have to wait 20 years.

Good for 10Km? Even if earth was flat, I would like to see you being able carry an optics package that can work/see that far.

Yeah I can bounce a beam off a building too, try bouncing it off a car or a human 13.5 in anything but perfect weather.

Well 7x magnification brings that down to an effective 1500m, pretty sure I can see a car at that range, probably a person as well with the right amount of contrast. BUT, be that as it may, I only mentioned the AN/GVS-5 as a currently available range finder that works to distances well in excess of what is required for a rifle sight and is capable of ranging every second, not to imply that people would be using them to snipe at those distances. You are the one who implied that I wouldn't be able to carry any system capable of things that it clearly is.

Getting on to windage, the one remaining hurdle, the Israeli's have recently patented a laser sniper scope that uses the laser to measure the wind down range. See the article here look at the three links in the comment section to the research papers.

The Israeli's aren't the only ones, the US DARPA currently are testing their One Shot system which combines all the currently available sensor readings with laser rangefinding and wind measurement.

[spanishsurfer 58]

Just a little FYI on scopes and ranges...My neighbor used to be a US Army Ranger and now he's been reassigned to some other Special Forces unit. Anyhow, he taught me a neat trick that I had never known about ACOG weapon sights. When looking through an ACOG weapon sight the very top red circle represents an average mans head at 100 yards, as you go down the sight to the next red circle it gets smaller and smaller, representing a man sized head at each interval (200 yards, 300, etc). There are many other weapon sights that use this system and I have never seen a game simulate this well, I'm not sure if Arma does...Anyhow, neat little trick.

[Petrov 10]

So, they market it so that you can attach it to the scope that you already own, all they are doing there is increasing their potential market. They could sell it with scope included it would just cost more. If they wanted to they could build it into the same houseing as the scope. It does ballistic calculations, it does do ranging, though not with a laser. It works through angle calculations from points selected by the user. The only factor that it misses on is windage. It is available now and it attaches to your rifle you don't have to wait 20 years.

Well 7x magnification brings that down to an effective 1500m, pretty sure I can see a car at that range, probably a person as well with the right amount of contrast. BUT, be that as it may, I only mentioned the AN/GVS-5 as a currently available range finder that works to distances well in excess of what is required for a rifle sight and is capable of ranging every second, not to imply that people would be using them to snipe at those distances. You are the one who implied that I wouldn't be able to carry any system capable of things that it clearly is.

Getting on to windage, the one remaining hurdle, the Israeli's have recently patented a laser sniper scope that uses the laser to measure the wind down range. See the article here look at the three links in the comment section to the research papers.

The Israeli's aren't the only ones, the US DARPA currently are testing their One Shot system which combines all the currently available sensor readings with laser rangefinding and wind measurement.

No BORS doesn't do ranging, the retricle on the scope does that, and it is slow and unreliable at best especially if you do no have good size reference, past 500 yards it becomes difficult to range things even with a first focal plane scope. You have to enter the range manually and you do not have to worry about the angle crap if you have a cosine indicator and it matter less and less when you stretch the shooting distance.

BORS is a solution looking for a problem.

[becubed 24]

No BORS doesn't do ranging, the retricle on the scope does that, and it is slow and unreliable at best especially if you do no have good size reference, past 500 yards it becomes difficult to range things even with a first focal plane scope. You have to enter the range manually and you do not have to worry about the angle crap if you have a cosine indicator and it matter less and less when you stretch the shooting distance.

BORS is a solution looking for a problem.

From the manual

This section also explains how to calibrate the unit, “zero†the BORS and scope with live fire, and use the BORS to determine range.

Determining the Range to the Target with the BORS

BORS provides the user with the ability to measure and then display the range to a reference object or target. This distance can be expressed in either yards or meters. The known vertical dimension of the reference object is used to calculate the distance to that object.

Range Finding Procedure

1. Press the button to enter the menu screen.

2. Press the button until the screen displays “DETERMINE RANGEâ€.

3. Press the button to select this screen.

4. The screen will display “TARGET SIZE?†on the top line. The bottom line will display either “1 FOOT†or “1 METER†depending on selected measurement basis.

5. By pressing the or the button, the user can scroll to display the approximate vertical size of a reference object.

ETC

The rest of it is hard to copy and paste as it has images, if you do a search the manual is on the Barrett site, you can look at it yourself. Basically you place the the crosshair on the top or bottom of the target and then adjust the BORS knob until it is at the other end and the range is calculated.

Are you even looking at the things I've linked because I get the feeling that this is like discussing religion and I'm just wasting my time. If that's so please let me know.

[Petrov 10]

Did you miss my previous post? "In 20 years from now? Yeah they probably will have a dedicated LRF built in, they have something workable now. "

You are wrong about the BORS. You quote the manual but you do not seem to understand that how that works. You can do exactly the same thing with a regular mil dot scope more reliably than BORS. Get target size figure out the size in mils and divide and you are all set.

That method is difficult and and unreliable especially past 500 or so yards. Where in a regular rifle you use both hands to keep the rifle steady and measure the target in mils you keep mashing a button on the bors to do the same thing at a slower pace, I guess it is not a problem if your rifle is strapped to a heavy I beam or something. You better know the EXACT size of the target and be able to measure to the 0.1th of a mil. Good luck with that. Unreliable method that gets you sort of in the ball park if you are REALLY good. So that thing that BORS calls a range finder was done 40 years ago with a regular scope and a guy with more that 2 brain cells to rub together to do a divison. Or if you are lazy just use a mil dot master.

Comparing BORS to real laser range finder is like comparing a shovel to a hadraualic excavator.

[becubed 24]

Did you miss my previous post? "In 20 years from now? Yeah they probably will have a dedicated LRF built in, they have something workable now. "

I'm sorry I did forget that one, though i my defence it was a few days ago and before the BORS cropped up as an example of a "hand held weather station and you sure as hell not going to be attaching that to your rifle even 20 years from now". The two 20 years parts caused them to blend together in my memory.

I am aware of how the ranging of the BORS works and the fact that it is an automation of the calculations that can be preformed using mil dots, nowhere did I suggest that it was a replacement for a laser. I just mentioned it as you said that there was no ranging facility.

To clear up a few things about the points I'm trying to make I'll put them in point form

1. Scopes exist that intergrate laser range finders

EG Burris Eliminator, Nikon M-223, Zeis Victory and Bushnell Yardage Pro

2. At least one of these, the Bushnell, allows for constant range updates in scanning mode. I don't know about the others.

3. Scopes, (or addons that could be packaged into a scope:)) that perform weather station functions and ballistic calculations using this date exist.

EG Barret BORS, Zeis Hendsoldt Optics SAM

4. There are ways to use a laser to measure wind as well as range

5. The US army is currently testing a spotting scope or rifle scope (the current form factor is unclear with what I have read) that provide all this functionality in one. There are currently plans to add thermal and night vision, mount it in the spotters scope and link it by wireless or cable to the snipers scope.

6. A rifle sight that allows you to tag the target with a laser mounted in the rifle scope, have it perform all the required calculations including range, temperature, barometric pressure, spin drift, cant and inclination ( it still requires you to input wind speed ) and then automatically fires the rifle when it is in the correct attitude for a hit is avalable to civilians.

Given all this you think that a scope with a laser range finder in it, that still requires you to manually adjust the range after reading the distance, in a game set 20 years in the future, is a problem?

Oh and just incase you think I'm harping on about this because I like the sniper rifles and racking up kills, I've never actually used them in a game except in the sniper mission where you stopped a convoy in the original Arma campaign.

PS I can't wait to see the reaction once someone mods this in.

[AegisWolf 16]

http://defensetech.org/2013/02/08/now-anybody-can-be-a-sniper/

Think where this technology would be in Arma III's timeline.

[dayglow 2]

They will never take human skill out of it. There's never a tech that works perfectly otherwise humans wouldn't need to control those weapon systems or control them sitting in a nice remote place while RC drones do all the job.

Now compare that to ArmA implementation.

In any case why is it an excuse to dumb down ArmA3 further? All the other dumbing down that ArmA3 already suffered isn't enough?

Doesnt effect how you choose to play the game in the end.

[becubed 24]

http://defensetech.org/2013/02/08/now-anybody-can-be-a-sniper/

Think where this technology would be in Arma III's timeline.

That's the system I linked to in point 6. For an article about what it's like to shoot go here, it's very interesting. First time ever shooting a rifle and the camera man hits a dinner plate sized target at 1,000 yrds on his first shot.

[Dwarden 1124]

don't forget these semi guided sniper bullets ... already available on market ;)

[becubed 24]

don't forget these semi guided sniper bullets ... already available on market ;)

Don't know about on mrket but they are certainly in the works, they are the mod that I think will give some people an aneurysm if it appears.

[Fragmagnet 3]

I don't see why people don't just use stadiametric rangefinding.

It's not that hard.

Although I'd have to go back into arma to see which scopes actually have it.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Fragmagnet

[becubed 24]

More augmented scope goodness has cropped up.

Tracking point have released a new video including using the scope to shoot around corners with an external display. Someone ln the comments also mentioned the Meslas so you can add invisible to NVG's as an option as well.

[Smurf 12]

This came in handy:

From: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/08/06/trackingpoint-tracking-corner-shot-capabilities/

Imagine this in 20 years! I wouldn't want to fight in a battlefield with those things around.

[maffa 29]

I'm sorry guys, im only here because I hope AiA will work, but i need to tell you all this havoc about wanting to play a futuristic scenario the same way you play the present is laughable. Of course you should be able to be more precise from a longer distance than now. Its called progress. Warplanes dont fight the same way they fought in the 40's, in the 50's and in the 70's, because jet propulsion, rockets and radar guidance respectively changed the rule of the game... also troops dont fight the same way since the 40s or 60s 70 and so on.

The problem is what comes with playing (and messing) with futuretech is that you also must devise a way as HOW future wars will be fought. Any succesful futuristic scenario brings with it an underlaying doctrine that copes available technology with the situation at hand. Snipers having an infotech inside their sight is perfectly plausible and should be implemented. How do you cope with it? Who knows? BIS should tell us: how do the fighting powers cope with omnipotent snipers? For instance, all troops are either machinegunners or snipers? The same applies to tanks, helicopters and all the futuretech they are throwing in.

If you dont intend to give a complete coherent scenario, dont even bother to sell science fiction.

[dayglow 2]

would it be plausible that you would have a portable laser detector? The sniper may get an accurate range, but you know you've just been painted by a laser. Time to get to cover, change direction and or pop smoke.