Discussion on "Axed" Features

[-Coulum- 35]

Discussion seems to have drifted away from axed confirmed features, to axed highly requested features, to "improper" implementation of confirmed features.

Regarding sniper rifles. The problem isn't that they kill in one shot or that it is to easy to mount cqb sights, the problem is they are much easier to use in game than in reality. I have never handled an antimaterial rifle in reality but I know lugging around a 15kg weapon is tiring and not easy to aim quickly and precisely. Its not practical for everyone to carry around one in real life because it limits your ability to effectively engage in close range firefights (300m-). In arma 3 however it is totally practical because the weapons have no weight or clunkyness to them, unlike in reality. Its great to be rid of negative mouse acceleration but now we need new features to compensate and balance weapons realistically. MANY other games have more diverse weapon handling than arma - may not be realistic, but they have something other than just recoil, range and stopping power to worry about. Just making heavier weapons take a while to "settle" after moving the mouse quickly would make things many time better.

Mission design will not make the sniper rifle perform more like it does in reality. It will only limit that lack of realism to a few lucky players.

Then again realism isn't exactly a priority anymore (it is a sad time indeed) so maybe this isn't really considered a problem by the devs...

Either way, it appears at this point in development, that Arma has really lost a big part of what makes Arma Arma. Not only in gameplay features, but in the general "spirit" of the game. Arma 2 actually isn't any more realistic than Arma 3 if you ask me (minus mods) but you could tell in Arma 2 there was at least a goal for realism (I think) - In arma 3 its more like some features just happen to be realistic. Chortles sig sums it up quite well and it actually shouldn't be big news to anyone - but I am still none to happy about it.

[Smurf 12]

To follow up on the Holosight Sniper debate and claiming it to be a game issue rather than a mission issue, if I spawn an entire team as snipers and an entire enemy team as assault rifle guys, that's the mission's fault rather than the game's fault.

Pure non-sense and one more that don't get what is the point. A team of snipers vs a team of assaulters indeed is a mission problem.

A heavy sniper vs a dude armed with a pistol in a CQB scenario where the sniper has all the advantage, thats the game problem.

You can have how many snipers you have, pimp the way you want and all that but you also have to have the downsides of using such a large, powerfull and heavy weapon like that, which right now you don't.

"Realism Purist"... cmon... That's plain passive\intrinsic balance, happens IRL but not in the game, same goes for the weight\inventory issue. Exactly what froggyluv just posted.

EDIT: And what -Coulum- just posted, perfect.

Now you see what I mean?

Edited July 13, 2013 by Smurf

[ric 1]

... because it's not their engine? Simple as that.

The other company is called Bohemia Interactive Simulations (BISim) as opposed to Bohemia Interactive Studio (BIS), different CEOs (Peter Morrison vs. Maruk Spanel), and as Rocket alluded to, orders of magnitude more VBS2 devs. Moreover, engine-wise he called them more like cousins than brothers; VBS2 2.0 is actually a porting of VBS2 to the Arma 2 engine, so Arma 3 has the newer engine anyway....

newer? in this video from 11/2011 i see parachutes, scuba diver and ragdoll. just out of curiosity im going ask again why if VBS 2 2.0 was based on the A2 engine why was A3 not based on it...a stripped down version for the public and before you start telling me it s different company they are both under the BI umbrella.

[marcai 1]

Now you see what I mean?

No, if i'm quite honest. The sniper rifle has a 2 second delay on each shot you take with it, has 5 rounds before it needs reloading- putting them at disadvantage if you stay mobile in CQB. If a sniper hits you at close range, you're dead, quite simply, wheras you can take quite a few pistol shots before dying in the real world. The only thing that you're alluding to at the moment is the speed at which we can move weapons and the lack of weapon collision within interior environments. If that is the only thing the argument is based around at the moment, it has to be the most situational thing ever, to be honest. It sounds pretty much:

"If I'm flanking an enemy sniper and they've seen me* and are thus prepared to shoot back and I engage them using a pistol in a building they can kill me!"

Frankly, that's a non-issue in my eyes that could be countered with "why did you think that was ever going to be a good idea?" I don't think many militaries in the world would ever suggest using a sidearm as your breaching weapon against an enemy position, or for anything other than a last resort. If you want to talk about the realistic -and effective- way of dealing with snipers, it tends to be blasting the general area that you think they're in with explosives, not running in solo and using your pistol against an enemy who knows you're coming, and is also carrying a ridiculously powerful gun. I'm not trying to make this personal, I simply think your argument thus far has been based around a very small set of in-game variables that will rarely come together, and will only occur on public servers with missions that allow the snipers to have free roam and a lot of ammo to play with.

* I assume you're arguing that the opponent has seen you approaching, otherwise there's no actual chance that you're going to get shot back in the first place.

[giorgygr 61]

newer? in this video from 11/2011 i see parachutes, scuba diver and ragdoll. just out of curiosity im going ask again why if VBS 2 2.0 was based on the A2 engine why was A3 not based on it...a stripped down version for the public and before you start telling me it s different company they are both under the BI umbrella.

Sorry Ric..

That's how the things are.

We should wait for the BI guys to finally deliver.

Believe me..there IS an 'axe' around ..and isn't on features or community's neck.

BI have very strict deadlines to deliver (on time)..and in the other side is the major part of community that

believes in ARMA3 at last we will see things we are begging for years now..

I wish from my heart the guys will make it..

[mordeaniischaos 3]

IMO the only parts in arma 3 that are better then arma 2, is graphic wise. And the problem now is I dont give a shit about graphics if the core gameplay is messed up, nice features in arma 2 have either been completely removed in arma 3 or dumped down (good example is the medical system). I have always liked the arma series for the tactical, teamwork based and realistic aspects. It made the game unique, and stand out from all the other "mainstream" shooters out there, but with arma 3 it feels completely different, it feels like playing counterstrike (fatigue, lack of inertia, weapon handling etc etc). All these issues and the lack of communication from devs about wether these issues will be fixed or not, really give the impression that the game is going on a different path, to please a different audience. And then there is the futuristic setting.. I dont like it, but was willing to accept it (because mods can fix it) IF the core gameplay was good, since that is all that matters, content can always be added/changed by mods. But core gameplay atm is a big dissappointment, mainly because I (and im sure other people too) get the impression that priorities are not right.

I feel like it's hard to be sure, but aren't most of the things you're thinking about more from ACE than from core Arma 2? Thing you have to understand is that ArmA 2 without ACE or any additional content is a much simpler and less rich game. The AI is god awful, the way the controls work even on the basic level of aiming (by the way, inertia? You could swing around just as much in A2 as A3. It's just smoother and less jerky and janky in A3, which is good).

Keep in mind that Bohemia is making more of a platform than a game. They can't do everything. I wouldn't say that Arma 2 on it's own is a great game. It's pretty cool, but it's so complex that one developer couldn't really do everything they wanted to do. So you get the ACE Team doing all of their awesome work. You get ACRE, made by Nou and his buddies. You have stuff like MSO and Insurgency built for you. That's what ArmA is about. You've been spoiled by ArmA 2 and hey, I miss all of that cool stuff too, but I also know it'll be in Arma 3 eventually.

Some of the things you've complained about are also just down to not being fully implemented at the stage of development the devs are at.

I'm not really sure what you mean by core gameplay, either. Because the only thing that ArmA 2 did in terms of "Core" gameplay was old school vehicle physics (Ie, not very good vehicle physics) and less than stellar character handling. I never used the original content because ACE had so much to offer. I never used the default Arty model, because ACE's Arty module was freakin' awesome and I loved actually going through the motions of prepping rounds and adjusting fire. The AI was one addon or another, which basically redid the AI in terms of how it actually behaved.

ArmA is a platform for people to build on. A lot of the improvements are behind the scenes. You want ArmA 3 to be awesome? Encourage them to focus on making it easier for mod and mission makers, because that's what makes ArmA amazing. It's how Bohemia provides us with a canvas to create just about anything on. If you thought ArmA 2 UNMODDED was that much better than ArmA 3, you still have ArmA 2 and it has a very large following, so continue playing that.

Oh and to the OP, underwater combat is leading to possibly the mod I'm most looking forward to. Some of us like variety, and the idea of having a really in-depth combat diver mission with all of the gear and procedures and stuff is awesome. You don't have to like it but don't act like it's up to you to decide if that's something that deserves attention. Most of us don't fly choppers but they are still in the game.

At the end of the day, what I see are a lot of people whining about the fact that the game doesn't have all of it's features yet. THE GAME ISN'T FINISHED OF COURSE IT DOESN'T. Does your boss complain to you when your report doesn't have all of the information it needs before it's done, due, or turned in to him? No, because that would just be stupid. Do you complain to your doctor halfway through a shot that you don't feel less sick? No, because that would be stupid. So take your heads out of your asses and be patient. You need to get it through your heads that you aren't playing a feature complete game. The BETA isn't there for you to enjoy, it's there to make sure ArmA 3 is as good as it can be when it comes out. It won't be perfect, but a lot has already been worked on just from feedback on the alpha/beta.

AND almost everything on that mythical list of confirmed features is in the BETA. Maybe not complete, but certainly in. There are exceptions, but are you really complaining about not being able to attach explosives to a boat? That's so easy to do it's not even funny. Addaction, which uses attachto. With some clever scripting it could take into account what you're placing and go from there. That sort of thing will be in game either from Bohemia or an addon.

Just wait for full release, when the major addon devs will actually get to work on their mods properly (most have said they are waiting for feature complete so they don't have to rewrite code or anything when things change during development, as they continue to do).

---------- Post added at 10:55 ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 ----------

Not to mention a sniper in a compromised situation like that would probably fall back on a side arm (assuming you managed to get through the team's security without alerting the sniper... That's the only "game problem" really is that a sniper couldn't fall back on a side arm in a CQB situation when he would need to. In reality it takes a very, very short time to grab your sidearm and drive the shots needed to get out of that mess. Snipers aren't helpless babies just waiting to get ninja'ed and if they are, that's a mission or player tactics issue, not a game issue.

And you're talking about the off chance that someone would have their rifle tangled up in something that would cause them to struggle to drive that weapon to the CQB target. Most people who are trained as snipers could probably get an accurate shot at room clearing range with their rifle and unless they are using a sasser or something or again are tangled up in cover (unlikely in a room where they would be as far from the window as possible to avoid silhouetting or catching light from outside).

This isn't a WWII game. Snipers in reality work in teams, often larger than a typical fireteam, set up security, etc. You'd be hard pressed to get to the sniper without going through a couple of guys with AK's and some booby traps, or in the case of a real western military, booby traps, a guy with a SAW, a couple carbine riflemen, a grenadier, and the backup marksman just to get at the sniper in question.

I think the issue here is someone assuming they know how military situations would go down when in actuality they have no idea! :3

[Anachoretes 10]

MordeaniisChaos

It is clear to everyone. It seemed to me, the audience of this game should be more bearable . There must be an understanding that nothing happens without a reason.

But people can't avoid the possibility of blaming each other for something. Otherwise, there would be no war, and this game too. The vicious circle, isn't it?

I agree with people who want more RL in game. Also understand why no visible reactions right!! now.

What's wrong with me. Damn.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Anachoretes

[doln 10]

Anyone who truly thinks Arma 2 unmodded is better than Arma 3 unmodded is delusional. Gameplay-wise at least. Content wise, yeah, fair enough, Arma 3 seems it will have less content at release, however thats a non-issue when you take in the modding community.

[Masharra 10]

Anyone who truly thinks Arma 2 unmodded is better than Arma 3 unmodded is delusional. Gameplay-wise at least. Content wise, yeah, fair enough, Arma 3 seems it will have less content at release, however thats a non-issue when you take in the modding community.

I must be delusional then... :D

[sofianebilal 10]

I must be delusional then... :D

and me too ;)

[-ghost-tf 12]

Edit - Nevermind

Edited July 13, 2013 by -Ghost-TF

[-Coulum- 35]

I wouldn't say anybody is delusional. IMO Arma 3 is, in the grand scheme of things, a better game. But it is unfortunate that many Arma 2 mechanics, that were working to an extent, were totally ditched. Arma 2 has many things that Arma 3 does not and of course vice versa. Its kind of like two steps forward one step back. Somethings are improved while others become worse. And many issues have simply just stayed the same.

Edited July 13, 2013 by -Coulum-

[sofianebilal 10]

yes, normally ArmA 3 must be at least the same level as arma 2, but it should also be better than ArmA 2, see even better than ArmA 2 + (ACRE, ACE).

which is not at all the case .

[daskunk 1]

Arma 3 will be like a good whiskey .... Left alone undisturbed it will get better with age ;)

[Anachoretes 10]

must be... new fog, new HDR, new direct lights, water shaders, new polycount content, new animations, new physic, new sound engine.....

Yes, its probably delusions.

---------- Post added at 19:26 ---------- Previous post was at 19:24 ----------

Left alone undisturbed it will get better with age

In previous games it was some other way? :rolleyes:

[dale0404 5]

Content wise, yeah, fair enough, Arma 3 seems it will have less content at release.

Let's wait until the game gets released to see whether this is true.

[sofianebilal 10]

must be... new fog, new HDR, new direct lights, water shaders, new polycount content, new animations, new physic, new sound engine.....

Yes, its probably delusions.

this is not a problem of graphics or other , this is a problem of simulation realism!

[Dudbomb 10]

All i want from ArmA 3 is better graphics, proper optimisation, better audio, less clunky animations, and an editor which isn't so difficult to use (ArmA 2's 3d editor is fun to use to build bases but everytime you save your mission, things move about) especially when doing simple things like making a chopper stand-by for your call for evacuation or CAS.

I think the new inventory system is kind of cool because you have different slots for more equipment, and it's also a nightmare to manage!

[Anachoretes 10]

this is not a problem of graphics or other

And therefore graphics does not require human resources? Or fog and sky is not realism? Physic? Animations?

[TSAndrey 1]

I hope things like bipods, shooting out of vehicles and etc. get attention after release, but I doubt things like this will be added post-release. Maybe in a DLC?

[pauliesss 2]

my previous comment about euphory ... maybe in future ... TBD TBA

Since this applies to almost everything that community wants, I am starting to be a little skeptical about the "things that may be added after release". Anyway, I still hope that at least some of the requested features will make it into post-release patches.

[Dudbomb 10]

I hope things like bipods, shooting out of vehicles and etc. get attention after release, but I doubt things like this will be added post-release. Maybe in a DLC?

If BIS ignore the little things like working bipods and passengers being able to shoot, leave it to the modding community to sort that out. And since we're going through the development stages it would be a massive disappointment if BIS rushed the release and ignored features that players really want which they later add in.

[BigBoss 10]

I doubt things like this will be added post-release.

Why? Bohemia supports its games long after they are released.

[chortles 263]

But, who cares? Let's play Wastelandia and smile, smile, smile!

Or be like the official Arma 3 Facebook page and outright promote it! :lol:

ArmA was a game about soldiers shooting other soldiers with real weapons in a believable fashion.

See my sig for what a reputed Arma dev states that Arma is... ;)

As for the developers staying quiet, I can sympathize. As soon as they say anything someone seems to pop out of the bushes and look at it really hard until they find a way of making it sound like they are admitting to communally kicking puppies in the break room.

I think the Steamworks announcement already proved that...

Wheres that "it's a simmulation guys, devs make all the things" img.

Ahahahaha where's that post of Vespa basically saying "We won't make all the things because then we'd be in development hell with Duke Nukem Forever".

Yeah this stuff is marked on the tracker, just like the deployable bipods with 1775 votes, with no response from devs, until just recently.

I don't recall the devs ever promising or even hinting at "working bipods" to begin with, so in that sense Dwarden merely confirmed what had been hinted at in some previous posts.

I can guarantee that if Bohemia had the programmers to spare they'd get right onto the weapon resting. They've most likely got more important things to do.

Pretty much this; the complainers may disagree, but it's the-powers-that-be (i.e. DnA) that give them their marching orders.

And my point still stands, the gameplay is almost identical, they've just tweaked it to be less 'low budget military simulator from eastern europe'.

That second part is very much one of the things Jay Crowe was talking up in interviews last year, too.

Community bring some of those axed features.

Devs came up with their reasons (all problems we know + some more that we don't know but seems big), justifications ("So what you modded it? Isn't just attach it to the game, we have to rewrite it to the engine to make sure it works", kind of), mention that they MAY implement some of these features (that may is what created this thread in the first place and here we go again...) and gave us a "solution": DIY.

You could say that the subject evolved from "why this feature that we saw\was hinted at ins't ingame" to "OK then, but why you cut other things aswell?".

... in which case I can see devs basically just pointing back to what they already said earlier in the thread.

newer? in this video from 11/2011 i see parachutes, scuba diver and ragdoll. just out of curiosity im going ask again why if VBS 2 2.0 was based on the A2 engine why was A3 not based on it...a stripped down version for the public and before you start telling me it s different company they are both under the BI umbrella.

By the time VBS2 2.0 was actually released, Arma 3 was seemingly already moved over to Real Virtuality 4 (RV4), and before that it seems (basically between Gamescom 2011 and E3 2012) the decision was made to move Arma 3 over to RV4, and Rocket -- the DayZ project lead is a former Arma 3 dev -- has said that they're actually way more different under the hood than they look.

Also, as I pointed out elsewhere... no, no they're not both under the BI umbrella, no parent company with an "over-CEO" here.

yes, normally ArmA 3 must be at least the same level as arma 2, but it should also be better than ArmA 2, see even better than ArmA 2 + (ACRE, ACE).

... yeah, see, that's not how that works, it's supposed to be "Arma 3 + (ACRE, ACE)" which > "Arma 2 + (ACRE, ACE)". :p

Chortles sig sums it up quite well and it actually shouldn't be big news to anyone

That's why they're in my sig, frankly.

[-Coulum- 35]

Why? Bohemia supports its games long after they are released.

Bipods have been requested for a decade as far as I know. Arma 1, Arma 2 and OA have all gone through "post release" and they still haven't been put in. Not that I don't have faith in the devs but I can understand why one wouldn't. All the "possibly in post release features" add up to more features than we are gaining in arma 3 from arma 2. Thats a little much for free patches - maybe not for an OA type expansion...

One upside is that hopefully most of the bug squashing will be done by the time the game comes around, leaving post release for "cool stuff" rather than just the fixing the game.