Discussion on "Axed" Features

[doln 10]

And since when has arma been a 100% true to life simulator? A lot of the gameplay has straddled the line between 'fun game' and 'serious simulator' since OFP. A lot of the gameplay features are abstractions of real life (The 'medkit swallowing' super soldiers is an abstraction of being taken out of the fight for 30 seconds to chuck a bandage on your leg for example) functions. The weapons having no collision indoors is an abstraction of the fact that most soldiers aren't headless chickens who know how to handle their weapon inside a building and know how & when to lower & raise it. When you walk forward in real life, do you actively think "I must place my left foot forward. Now I will place my right foot forward. Now I will place my left foot forward. Now I will place my right foot forward." No, you just think 'walk forward' and the rest is automatic. A lot of these 'omg its casualised!!!' arguments are just abstractions of what a trained soldier knows what to do.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Doln

[metalcraze 290]

well, the game ist still in beta, right?

Yeah and it was an alpha before. So?

Realism issues from when "it's an alpha" excuse was still fashionable are still not fixed. And things have gotten only worse since.

Also thus sniper rifles are new and cool. So many who played alpha before they came, love to use them, i see nothing wrong about.

Well I guess this explains. They are not broken, not unrealistic and not overpowered - people just love them for some reason.

Arma is still a game about soldiers shooting other soldier with real weapons in a believable fashion.

Maybe we have different ArmA3s then? in my ArmA3 people are doing 360 no scope turns on their belly while carrying 200 kgs on their back incl. an assault rifle, a launcher, a sniper rifle and a ton of mags and rockets and are able to run with all that forever. People get shot several times in a leg then apply a medkit and continue like nothing happened. Very very believable. If you think reality is superhero movies that is.

[NeuroFunker 11]

Yeah and it was an alpha before. So?

Realism issues from when "it's an alpha" excuse was still fashionable are still not fixed. And things have gotten only worse since.

Well I guess this explains. They are not broken, not unrealistic and not overpowered - people just love them for some reason.

Maybe we have different ArmA3s then? in my ArmA3 people are doing 360 no scope turns on their belly while carrying 200 kgs on their back incl. an assault rifle, a launcher, a sniper rifle and a ton of mags and rockets and are able to run with all that forever. People get shot several times in a leg then apply a medkit and continue like nothing happened. Very very believable. If you think reality is superhero movies that is.

bis just intruduced weight in lates or previous dev build, so 200kg should be fixed sooner or later.

[doln 10]

Yeah and it was an alpha before. So?

Realism issues from when "it's an alpha" excuse was still fashionable are still not fixed. And things have gotten only worse since.

Well I guess this explains. They are not broken, not unrealistic and not overpowered - people just love them for some reason.

Maybe we have different ArmA3s then? in my ArmA3 people are doing 360 no scope turns on their belly while carrying 200 kgs on their back incl. an assault rifle, a launcher, a sniper rifle and a ton of mags and rockets and are able to run with all that forever. People get shot several times in a leg then apply a medkit and continue like nothing happened. Very very believable. If you think reality is superhero movies that is.

Have you even played the other arma games? It's always been like that. And go out and wear (Man the ingame soldiers dont wear even close to 200kg of equipment, stop that shit) 50-60kg of equipment and a rifle, and try to turn around on the spot and go for a jog. Assuming you're reasonably physically fit, it's really not as hard as you think.

[NeuroFunker 11]

Have you even played the other arma games? It's always been like that. And go out and wear (Man the ingame soldiers dont wear even close to 200kg of equipment, stop that shit) 50-60kg of equipment and a rifle, and try to turn around on the spot and go for a jog. Assuming you're reasonably physically fit, it's really not as hard as you think.

maybe, for a guy whos weighting 150kg, by drining soda and eating at macdonalds, its quite hard to do so ;)

[metalcraze 290]

Have you even played the other arma games? It's always been like that.

Have you? Because no matter how hard I try in ArmA2 I can't rotate madly on a belly. Or rotate madly with heavy weapons at all. I can't also be a one man army no matter what I do.

50-60kg of equipment and a rifle, and try to turn around on the spot and go for a jog. Assuming you're reasonably physically fit, it's really not as hard as you think.

Yeah it's not effortless either and you will get tired eventually. Really fast when running with 60 kgs in fact.

Man the ingame soldiers dont wear even close to 200kg of equipment, stop that shit

Titan launcher alone is something like 16 kgs. Each rocket for it is ~11. You can carry 5 of them. That's 70+ kgs alone. And apart from that you can also carry GM6 Lynx (another 11 kgs) and a carbine with close to a dozen of mags for both. And a pistol. And a body armor itself. And there's almost zero difference in penalties between wearing nothing and all of that. Welcome to ArmA3.

[doln 10]

Yes and the soldiers ingame do get tired eventually, and it does effect your aim and movement speed. Not only that, but Bohemia has said they are working on (or have already implemented, can't remember exactly) a weight and weight limit system. Next complaint go go go

And you totally can spin around on your belly in Arma 2.

[NeuroFunker 11]

Have you? Because no matter how hard I try in ArmA2 I can't rotate madly on a belly. Or rotate madly with heavy weapons at all. I can't also be a one man army no matter what I do.

Yeah it's not effortless either and you will get tired eventually. Really fast when running with 60 kgs in fact.

Titan launcher alone is something like 16 kgs. Each rocket for it is ~11. You can carry 5 of them. That's 70+ kgs alone. And apart from that you can also carry GM6 Lynx (another 11 kgs) and a carbine with close to a dozen of mags for both. And a pistol. And a body armor itself. And there's almost zero difference in penalties between wearing nothing and all of that. Welcome to ArmA3.

and again, all dependent on mission maker. Go to arma 2 free: evolution server or arma2.ru warfare. You can either carry 1 KSVK or ak74+with rpg. The mission, doesn't allow you to wear ksvk with rpg.

So this is not really a unrealistic feature, but rather mission dependednt.

---------- Post added at 15:30 ---------- Previous post was at 15:29 ----------

Yes and the soldiers ingame do get tired eventually, and it does effect your aim and movement speed. Not only that, but Bohemia has said they are working on (or have already implemented, can't remember exactly) a weight and weight limit system. Next complaint go go go

And you totally can spin around on your belly in Arma 2.

yep, said the same thing before. That guy seems living in his own world.

[-ghost-tf 12]

-Ghost-TF

Im not playing A3. No one play. Stop crying about something that you still don't know. The problem inside people who can't see beyond the nose. The time of 'surfacethings' discussion is not yet come. This was repeatedly reported here.

These ideas and mistakes are marked on the forum and tracker. This is all you can do.

Yeah, discussing surfacethings during the development of the game, when things are still changeable is useless. We should discuss surfacethings when the game is released instead, just so people can tell us that it is too late, and that we should have provided feedback during alpha and beta, sounds good.

Yeah this stuff is marked on the tracker, just like the deployable bipods with 1775 votes, with no response from devs, until just recently. No reason to be concerned about all the other gamebreaking issues at all, I wonder why people are crying in the first place. But hey, why would you care, the game is perfectly fine for you.

[metalcraze 290]

Yes and the soldiers ingame do get tired eventually, and it does effect your aim and movement speed.

Which is not connected to weight in any noticeable way. No gear? Can't sprint after 130m. 100+ kgs on the back? Can't sprint after 85m. The rest is very much the same.

And let's compare to ArmA2. Getting tired = your speed falls below jogging speed and you get noticeable aiming shake. Can't hold breath.

ArmA3 = tired jogging speed exactly the same as fresh jogging speed, almost no aim shake. And even then it's completely eliminated either by holding breath or going prone - both of which have no effect when tired in ArmA2.

Not only that, but Bohemia has said they are working on (or have already implemented, can't remember exactly) a weight and weight limit system. Next complaint go go go

Where did they say that? My info must be outdated because only a week or two ago they had no such plans.

And you totally can spin around on your belly in Arma 2.

Please show me where I can spin like a propeller on a belly in ArmA2 doing instant 360 turns?

and again, all dependent on mission maker. Go to arma 2 free: evolution server or arma2.ru warfare. You can either carry 1 KSVK or ak74+with rpg. The mission, doesn't allow you to wear ksvk with rpg.

So this is not really a unrealistic feature, but rather mission dependednt.

You mean it's a mission fixing BIS design error of ArmA2 in a very unrealistic fashion.

Edited July 13, 2013 by metalcraze

[doln 10]

I can guarantee that if Bohemia had the programmers to spare they'd get right onto the weapon resting. They've most likely got more important things to do.

[-ghost-tf 12]

Yes and the soldiers ingame do get tired eventually, and it does effect your aim and movement speed. Not only that, but Bohemia has said they are working on (or have already implemented, can't remember exactly) a weight and weight limit system. Next complaint go go go

And you totally can spin around on your belly in Arma 2.

Yeah they get tired after sprinting for 100m but then you can continue jogging forever, which is perfectly fine because it does effect aiming, yeah so glad your aiming gets effected which you can completely ignore by holding your breath. I guess you missed the whole fatigue effects thread.

Oh and you can spin on your belly in arma 2? Never knew that, thanks for mentioning, Metalcraze said "rotate madly" (read: having an AT launcher in your hands and then spin 360 degrees in less then a second).

[doln 10]

Which is not connected to weight in any noticeable way. No gear? Can't sprint after 130m. 100+ kgs on the back? Can't sprint after 85m. The rest is very much the same.

And let's compare to ArmA2. Getting tired = your speed falls below jogging speed and you get noticeable aiming shake. Can't hold breath.

ArmA3 = tired jogging speed exactly the same as fresh jogging speed, almost no aim shake. And even then it's completely eliminated either by holding breath or going prone - both of which have no effect when tired in ArmA2.

Where did they say that? My info must be outdated because only a week or two ago they had no such plans.

Please show me where I can spin like a propeller on a belly in ArmA2 doing instant 360 turns?

You mean it's a mission fixing BIS design error of ArmA2 in a very unrealistic fashion.

You can hold your breath while tired in real life, hence why thats in there. Going prone makes your aim stable irrelevant of your tiredness in real life too, hence why thats in there.

I'm far too lazy to find it but they did say it.

In arma 2, go spawn a unit, go prone, move your mouse to the left. I do agree it's a bit ridiculous the speed you can turn in Arma 3, but in the grand scheme of a firefight the difference in speed between the games is almost irrelevant.

And my point still stands, the gameplay is almost identical, they've just tweaked it to be less 'low budget military simulator from eastern europe'.

[Maxzy 12]

Some guys remind me strongly of this old geezer from this video.

[-ghost-tf 12]

Some guys remind me strongly of this old geezer from this video.

Yeah, helicopters that fly are too OP. Lets "balance" it. ;)

[Smurf 12]

ArmA3 = tired jogging speed exactly the same as fresh jogging speed' date=' almost no aim shake. And even then it's completely eliminated either by holding breath or going prone - both of which have no effect when tired in ArmA2.[/quote']

Actually now aim sway is a little greater and you can't hold breath. Once you go prone you recover so fast that it doesn't matter anyway.

So this is not really a unrealistic feature, but rather mission dependednt.

Which is totally ridiculous.

Arma 3 is literrary better then arma 2 in every aspect.

Is it? Remove (part of!) infantry changes of the equation and pretty much everything is the same thing as it was in A2.

The weapons having no collision indoors is an abstraction of the fact that most soldiers aren't headless chickens who know how to handle their weapon inside a building and know how & when to lower & raise it.

So, going "up and down" with a pistol == doing the same thing with a Cheytac M200? GOT IT. Wonder why the M107 isn't the main battle rifle nowadays since it is all the same thing; it could be in A3. :j:

Pretty musch the same thing for every "counter argument" you have here.

[[evo] dan 79]

thats nonesense, so you suggest to axe sniper rifles or what? This is depending all on mission makers, should simply limit sniper class. This has nothing to do with BIS and axed features...

Not Axe the sniper rifle, but make it more realistic in the fact that its a pain in the bum to move one around inside of a house. (unlike a carbine)

[doln 10]

So, going "up and down" with a pistol == doing the same thing with a Cheytac M200? GOT IT. Wonder why the M107 isn't the main battle rifle nowadays since it is all the same thing; it could be in A3. :j:

Pretty musch the same thing for every "counter argument" you have here.

Just because a sniper rifle isn't suited for clearing a house doesn't mean it can't be done. You could clear houses with sniper rifles and big huge machineguns in operation flashpoint and arma 1 + 2. That is more down to the player and the mission maker than it is Bohemia.

[Smurf 12]

Just because a sniper rifle isn't suited for clearing a house doesn't mean it can't be done. You could clear houses with sniper rifles and big huge machineguns in operation flashpoint and arma 1 + 2. That is more down to the player and the mission maker than it is Bohemia.

You just don't get it. Of course you can do in real life and could do in OFP=>A2. BUT IT'S A PAIN IN THE ASS.

In A3, attach an holo sight to a GM6 and you are now playing CoD\BF\CS with an OP, one shot hitscan weapon. Then you go outside and attach a 20x scope in 2 seconds, run 400m and kill that guy far away in the first shot.

Mission maker? That has been used FAR too much as excuses for shortcomings of the game and in this case makes no sense at all. A base game mechanic fix related to missions? First quote on NeuroFunker on my last post fits here aswell.

[doln 10]

You just don't get it. Of course you can do in real life and could do in OFP=>A2. BUT IT'S A PAIN IN THE ASS.

In A3, attach an holo sight to a GM6 and you are now playing CoD\BF\CS with an OP, one shot hitscan weapon. Then you go outside and attach a 20x scope in 2 seconds, run 400m and kill that guy far away in the first shot.

Mission maker? That has been used FAR too much as excuses for shortcomings of the game and in this case makes no sense at all. A base game mechanic fix related to missions? First quote on NeuroFunker on my last post fits here aswell.

The sniper rifles aren't hitscan. Large caliber weapons do tend to kill people in one shot assuming you hit the head or center mass. Swapping optics on the fly with sniper rifles can be silly at times I agree, but theres nothing stopping you from doing it in real life, which brings me back to the point of its up to the mission maker.

Missions are the bread and butter of Arma, it's an entirely valid excuse. Bohemia have never really been good mission makers themselves (imo). Would you play a mission where you play an attack helicopter going up against soldiers armed with pistols and no means of AA defense, then call the helicopter overpowered and "its not the mission makers fault, its bohemias fault"?

[Tonci87 163]

Guys would you please return to the topic at hand?

[Smurf 12]

They are hitscans on the context of the conversation we were having wich is indoors fighting, as pretty much every other weapon. But it can kill you with one single shot to the foot.

And, wow, you really don't get it. Great example there....

Guys would you please return to the topic at hand?

There isn't much more to discuss.

Community bring some of those axed features.

Devs came up with their reasons (all problems we know + some more that we don't know but seems big), justifications ("So what you modded it? Isn't just attach it to the game, we have to rewrite it to the engine to make sure it works", kind of), mention that they MAY implement some of these features (that may is what created this thread in the first place and here we go again...) and gave us a "solution": DIY.

You could say that the subject evolved from "why this feature that we saw\was hinted at ins't ingame" to "OK then, but why you cut other things aswell?".

Edited July 13, 2013 by Smurf

[froggyluv 2130]

and again, all dependent on mission maker. Go to arma 2 free: evolution server or arma2.ru warfare. You can either carry 1 KSVK or ak74+with rpg. The mission, doesn't allow you to wear ksvk with rpg.

So this is not really a unrealistic feature, but rather mission dependednt.

A mission needing to place arbitrary rules to prevent weapon porn is not in the spirit of sandbox gaming. The game presents the rules and the finding success through the rules is what makes it fun and interesting. Example -your squad has to cover a large space to get back to base yet there is known armour along the way -should you bring a ton of AT's yet knoiw you'll be considerably slowed or travel light better hoping to avoid with speed?

Sure the mission designer could just limit the amount of AT's -but the laws of physics/biomechanics should also be present.

[doln 10]

They are hitscans on the context of the conversation we were having wich is indoors fighting, as pretty much every other weapon. But it can kill you with one single shot to the foot.

And, wow, you really don't get it. Great example there....

I just tested it, it takes 2 shots to the foot from very close range to kill someone. This could be changed I agree, but this could be an abstraction of the fact that someone who's just had their foot blown off in a very painful manner isn't going to be combat effective.

What is this O so great thing I'm not 'getting'? Please enlighten me

[marcai 1]

Hilarious thread, to say the least. For those who want a summary of the last 4 pages or so:

1- Why can you hold your breath or lay down to negate breathing shakes? Casual babies make my game unrealistic!

2- You can do that in reality though...

1- It makes sniper rifles OP, loads on each server ruining my game!

2- That's up to the mission maker to limit them rather than letting everyone take one...

1- Lol no, it's a game issue because they're too easy to use!

2- Unless there's only one or two per team, then it's a commodity

1- But you can put holosights on them and one-shot kill people!

2- You can do that irl, we just don't

1- YOU JUST DON'T GET IT

What seems to be occurring is a pattern from 'realism purists', who want things to be realistic, but only in the way that they approve of. Certain boundries, they will argue, must be kept, even if in reality they don't make sense. The argument against melee suffers a similar issue, in that rifle-butting someone is far more natural when 1m away and out of ammo then merely running in circles hoping for the best, but the 'purists' argue that it will turn their game into CoD/ BF/ Halo/ [insert game-to-hate-of-the-day]. I'll steer back away from that, however, as I know the shitstorm it can cause. To follow up on the Holosight Sniper debate and claiming it to be a game issue rather than a mission issue, if I spawn an entire team as snipers and an entire enemy team as assault rifle guys, that's the mission's fault rather than the game's fault. If I spawned a full team of snipers with no AT vs 10 player-controlled Madrids, it's not the Madrid's fault that it has no recoil on the aiming screen and will likely win the game, but the mission's fault.

What's more amusing to me, personally, is the lack of research done by the complainers as to the issues, as demonstrated by the med-kit argument early in this thread. Anyone who's actually played the game for more than 5 hours will likely have noticed their character still makes 'injured' noises after a medkit usage, or noticing that when playing a medic you can still fix them- making medics required for a full fix of your character after taking injuries. A more complex wounding system (DayZ has a pretty nice one, with locational damage shown on-screen for players and affecting them in various ways) would be nice, but until then, what we have is fit for purpose. Having such placholders in place whilst they get things working such as weighted vehicles or an aircraft flight model is far more satisfying to me than saying 'Im so glad the devs put all of their efforts into the meidcal system- it's a shame that nothing else works, but look how much like a real medic I am!'