Weapon Sway Tweaking

[Anachoretes 10]

In ArmA i never shoot without Hold Breath. It's just a habit which originated from life. Shoot at a target - focused. As stated above. Otherwise muscle overflow by lactic acid and you will be useless. In the game its very natural. Sec.mouse but. - iron sight, hold this button for "hold breathe" and focusing. Depending from firing range. And this is shooting practice.

[WildFire6 10]

In-game state ---> Equivalent state in reality

Swaying and breathing while aiming down the sights ---> Simply looking through the ironsights, not: tensing muscles to stabilize weapon, fully aligning sights or practicing any form of breath control etc. to shoot accurately.

Holding breath ---> Holding breath, tensing the muscles to steady the weapon as much as possible and maintaining perfect sight alignment to fire precise shots.

Keeping a weapon perfectly steady is possible via tensing muscles and holding breath, but it is hard to do for more than a few seconds - then your muscles start to fatigue enough that fine muscle control is lost in addition to a need to inhale more O2. This introduces two states - the first, a relaxed and unlimited one, where you are simply looking down the sight to acquire your target and a second, limited one, when you are actually aiming and preparing yourself to make a precise shot. These two states are damn near perfectly demonstrated by sway and the hold breath feature in arma.

I have been taught to shoot while breathing and walking. There is a reason U.S. military guys have a ton of upper body strength. Although your right about tensing up, IRL you dont realize you are tensed up. After you've shot hundreds of rounds and are completely used to a certain rifle, stable comes easy. I would compare it to being totally relaxed but my muscles tell me otherwise after a day of shooting. See an experienced shooter feels relaxed while they are shooting, and they are taught to control their breathing. Don't get me wrong I sway while standing. So much that I can hit a torso sized object at 300 meters while standing up and moving slowly while just about rapid firing an M4 with a red dot. But yeah I sway. Its just about completely unnoticeable. The sway is more like realignment after each shot rather than me walking around drunk like in arma. Anything more than about 1 to 0.5 inches of sway in relation to your sight picture is ridiculous. If I'm standing and relaxed and breathing correctly I can fire all day at 300 meter objects with ease. If I move the entire world changes and your argument becomes extremely valid. The figure 8 with a half foot of motion is a bit much but whatever. Standing still though, in any position, it doesn't hold its water.

This vid demonstrates how shooters don't constantly have steady aim but rather steady their aim immediately before making there shot.

Notice the shooter's sights and sway are pretty bad but about half a second before he takes his shots his sights become aligned and steady. He shoots - and then relaxes, his sights once again loosing stability. In arma this equates to normal sway, to acquire the target, hold breath, shoot, and return to normal sway. His sights aren't aligned and perfectly steady the entire time as people seem to think they should be in arma.

I can hit that target with that gun walking towards it with one hand, firing slightly faster than that video shows. I'll need about 500 rounds to get used to how the weapon handles first though. However your video does show weapon sway, its just the guy shooting it probably can shoot a lot better than that, rather faster. Its hard to take video like that in the first place. Also rifle stability is ridiculously higher than pistols and you should know that. Honestly. Thats why rifles are zeroed out to high range while a pistol is not expected to be. Its like comparing apples to spare tires. Ridiculous. The weight and balance of a rifle is built in such a way to aid stability while a pistol is built to point and fire within 10 meters. Furthermore there should be two completely different models for firing pistols and rifles. This is why in real life some people honest to god hate firing pistols, or hate firing rifles, because they are in fact two completely different beasts.

Also that manual is not in the form of an official document or anything thereabout. This is a good example of a real document. I've read A LOT of these...

http://doni.daps.dla.mil/SECNAV%20Manuals1/5510.36.pdf

Your looking for something with seals, watermarks, or otherwise officiating images that only the real military uses, not some handy dandy graphic that looks like my sister made and says U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit. Furthermore you state something about the "shooter" in the video. I.E. not you. I checked the info on the armed defender academy that video is from, I am not impressed, ask any veteran with combat experience, if they would like an air force vet to teach them weapons training. I'll laugh my a@# off. So with your lack of real documentation and the fact that you provided what you think IS a real document with no references, a video of a really bad shooter, who isnt even you, and the fact that you compared shooting a rifle to shooting a pistol Im gonna have to say- refer to my first post.

Although I think your heart was in the right place when you started this thread, and for that I do thank you.

[fujix 11]

What about a system where sway is reduced across the board when you first raise the weapon to fire.I am talking the sway you have when you "hold breath" is what you start with.Then it starts to increase the amount of sway at a speed that is dependent on the actual weight/balance of the weapon itself to where after a certain amount of time the weapon is swaying the way it does when you release your breath.The only way to reduce it is to lower weapon for a bit.This could be also tied in to the stamina level from running so that heavily weighted down players will be swaying like crazy moving from place to place.

Hmm a trained soldier should not get tired from holding up an assault rifle easily. However with larger guns definitely. What could also be nice tho is if for example the sway would kick in faster if you pick up a weapon thats not your "classes" default weapon. For example if you are a rifleman and decide to pick up a lmg or a sniper rifle, since you are not used and properly trained to operate that weapon, there can be a slight sway penalty. Maybe the same thing could apply if you pick up an opfor weapon as blufor and vice verse. But I dont know, might be anti sandbox or something. Just an idea that popped up in head as I was typing this :)

As for the stamina level impacting the sway definitely. Many have argued in the beta fatigue effects thread that its a great penalty for being fatigued instead of some stupid graphic effect.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Some more thoughts as to why starting the weapon at hold breath zoom sway levels and then just increasing is a rather good implementation.One thing that is great about arma3 is that the sway moves inside of a stationary crosshair.What I mean is that if you do not move the mouse then crosshair is perfectly stationary while weapon sways onscreen.This means that when you place crosshair on the spot you want to hit and press optics the aimpoint is always slightly off and always varies its location.When prone this is less noticeable BUT it is still off and forces you to place crosshair on target and have to adjust slightly.So quick snap shot is possible with great skill to move the mouse the small amount quickly.

Secondly,having the sway when you first bring up sights start off as low (as when holding breath) gets rid of needing to zoom to get sway reduction which has tactical importance.Sometimes you want to fire at enemy but keep more situational awareness but with current system you need to zoom in order to reduce the sway.

Thirdly is that consecutive shots fired with minimal zoom is also not easy as the recoil then comes into effect causing one to readjust each shot.

Of course the time duration to get severe sway being tied in with the weapons weight or its balance is a way to make differences with weapons and so is a side benefit with big immersion boost.

And I just have to mention my anti-love of the new 3D scopes.The fact that sway moves inside the crosshair is "another" reason why I do not like the 3D scopes.When you go to sight the weapon should stop moving separately from your head as your muscles hold the sight and your head all tight together.So in non 3D sights the weapon sways inside the crosshair area but when you go to sight the whole screen sways.But instead in 3D sights you bring optic up and the screen stays stationary while the sight sways inside of it and just doesn't feel right.Then when it recoils the sight recoils inside a staionary screen until it hits a certain point and then the whole screen recoils making for a clunky feel.:butbut:

Edited June 30, 2013 by Wolfstriked

[fujix 11]

Whats even more funny about this whole sway business, is that it applies to binoculars as well :D

Try zooming in with the rangefinder for example and your view will start to spasm out completely. I mean this is so ridiculous I dont know if I should laugh or cry.

Current state of infantry mechanics is beyond bad. Extreme sway, insane and badly implemented recoil, fatigue effects that cause real life discomfort. I loved infantry game play in A2. In A3 with the new stances and awesome fluid movement I was really hyped about infantry play. Now with the beta, I cant even see myself playing this game anymore. I really hope BIS realize whats currently wrong with infantry play and change it.

And yes I know this is beta but that doesnt mean things will change for the better.

[Wolfstriked 11]

As for the stamina level impacting the sway definitely. Many have argued in the beta fatigue effects thread that its a great penalty for being fatigued instead of some stupid graphic effect.

Agreed in that zooming will not cause a severe stamina fatigue to disappear for 6 seconds when you hold breath.The whole hold breath function causes alot of issues and just doesnt feel right with weapon getting less sway and then going erratic and over and over.

Hmm a trained soldier should not get tired from holding up an assault rifle easily. However with larger guns definitely. What could also be nice tho is if for example the sway would kick in faster if you pick up a weapon thats not your "classes" default weapon. For example if you are a rifleman and decide to pick up a lmg or a sniper rifle, since you are not used and properly trained to operate that weapon, there can be a slight sway penalty. Maybe the same thing could apply if you pick up an opfor weapon as blufor and vice verse. But I dont know, might be anti sandbox or something. Just an idea that popped up in head as I was typing this :)

Bullpups are known to cause little fatigue with weapon up as their benefit so slower sway buildup and carbines should also have slower sway buildup.Then rifles etc....

---------- Post added at 10:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 AM ----------

Whats even more funny about this whole sway business, is that it applies to binoculars as well :D

Try zooming in with the rangefinder for example and your view will start to spasm out completely. I mean this is so ridiculous I dont know if I should laugh or cry.

Current state of infantry mechanics is beyond bad. Extreme sway, insane and badly implemented recoil, fatigue effects that cause real life discomfort. I loved infantry game play in A2. In A3 with the new stances and awesome fluid movement I was really hyped about infantry play. Now with the beta, I cant even see myself playing this game anymore. I really hope BIS realize whats currently wrong with infantry play and change it.

And yes I know this is beta but that doesnt mean things will change for the better.

Sway should be reduced to hold breath levels for binos and should be the slowest gainer of sway.

[Adjutant 10]

When you sight the weapon, it should not sway independently of your sight picture ... since the gun is locked into your shoulder. Instead, the sight should be fixed in the centre of your sight picture. It is the the whole sight picture that sways in ADS view.

Good point.

One strong consensus that emerged is that sighting the weapon will initiate steady aim (what is being called a "hold breath" function). Steady aim is not instant, but is reached within a short moment after sighting (Coulum). Consider what happens for a distant target. As you aim down the sights, you need to line up a shot. Should you do this in good time, "steady aim" interval will coincide with sight being placed on target. If you take a bit of time to find the target first, then you can still catch the steady aim interval in the middle or near its end.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Adjutant

[-Coulum- 35]

I have been taught to shoot while breathing and walking. There is a reason U.S. military guys have a ton of upper body strength. Although your right about tensing up, IRL you dont realize you are tensed up. After you've shot hundreds of rounds and are completely used to a certain rifle, stable comes easy. I would compare it to being totally relaxed but my muscles tell me otherwise after a day of shooting. See an experienced shooter feels relaxed while they are shooting, and they are taught to control their breathing. Don't get me wrong I sway while standing. So much that I can hit a torso sized object at 300 meters while standing up and moving slowly while just about rapid firing an M4 with a red dot. But yeah I sway. Its just about completely unnoticeable. The sway is more like realignment after each shot rather than me walking around drunk like in arma. Anything more than about 1 to 0.5 inches of sway in relation to your sight picture is ridiculous. If I'm standing and relaxed and breathing correctly I can fire all day at 300 meter objects with ease. If I move the entire world changes and your argument becomes extremely valid. The figure 8 with a half foot of motion is a bit much but whatever. Standing still though, in any position, it doesn't hold its water.

So basically what your saying is that for experienced shooters it is easy to maintain a state of readiness and stability with the rifle without getting fatigued. I don't doubt that but I do find it hard to believe you are always in this state. Is it possible that it is not only that you can maintain longer but you are also super efficient at pacing yourself having the ability to turn that stability on and off at a moments notice. I just find it hard to believe that you are constantly aiming, even when you might not actually be planning on shooting something or even have a target acquired to shoot.

Don't get me wrong I sway while standing. So much that I can hit a torso sized object at 300 meters while standing up and moving slowly while just about rapid firing an M4 with a red dot.

See this is what gives me the feeling you aren't fully taking in what I am saying. When you are actually trying to hit something like a target 300 metres away while moving you automatically tense up while aligning your sights and controlling breath. You probably don't hold your breath all the time but I assume you are also practicing some form of breath control. This is not the equivilent of just looking through your ironsights in arma. It is the equivilent of holding breath and looking through the sight in arma. And, take away recoil in arma 3 (which is another issue entirely), and

(I know not red dot sight but I can't even see the target then).

When you seriously want to hit something in arma you should be holding your breath. To my eyes it doesn't just represent holding breath but also tensing up and preparing to fire accurately. As Anachoretes says, it should be natural, just like in real life it is natural to automatically increase stability before shooting. The one problem with this however is that in real life you can practice breath control techniques that don't only last as long as you can hold your breath. This is one area where you have a point I cannot refute.

I can hit that target with that gun walking towards it with one hand, firing slightly faster than that video shows. I'll need about 500 rounds to get used to how the weapon handles first though. However your video does show weapon sway, its just the guy shooting it probably can shoot a lot better than that, rather faster. Its hard to take video like that in the first place. Also rifle stability is ridiculously higher than pistols and you should know that. Honestly. Thats why rifles are zeroed out to high range while a pistol is not expected to be. Its like comparing apples to spare tires. Ridiculous. The weight and balance of a rifle is built in such a way to aid stability while a pistol is built to point and fire within 10 meters. Furthermore there should be two completely different models for firing pistols and rifles. This is why in real life some people honest to god hate firing pistols, or hate firing rifles, because they are in fact two completely different beasts.

Also that manual is not in the form of an official document or anything thereabout. This is a good example of a real document. I've read A LOT of these...

http://doni.daps.dla.mil/SECNAV%20Manuals1/5510.36.pdf

Your looking for something with seals, watermarks, or otherwise officiating images that only the real military uses, not some handy dandy graphic that looks like my sister made and says U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit. Furthermore you state something about the "shooter" in the video. I.E. not you. I checked the info on the armed defender academy that video is from, I am not impressed, ask any veteran with combat experience, if they would like an air force vet to teach them weapons training. I'll laugh my a@# off. So with your lack of real documentation and the fact that you provided what you think IS a real document with no references, a video of a really bad shooter, who isnt even you, and the fact that you compared shooting a rifle to shooting a pistol Im gonna have to say- refer to my first post.

Hey man, just to be clear the vid of some random dude shooting a pistol is not supposed to be any form of undeniable proof that what I am saying is correct. It is just to demonstrate in video form exactly what I mean. I could have made animation myself and exaggerated sway and steadiness and it would have still served its purpose - to demonstrate what I was describing above.

Pretty much same goes for the manual. Its more to help describe this to people better. The most it "proves" is that another person somewhere out there has experienced the same thing I have, meaning maybe I am not totally bullshitting.

So with your lack of real documentation and the fact that you provided what you think IS a real document with no references, a video of a really bad shooter, who isnt even you, and the fact that you compared shooting a rifle to shooting a pistol Im gonna have to say- refer to my first post.

I mean no offence here, but you are coming off as hypocritical. I provided outside resources to help demonstrate my point. You disregard my points because it is not "official documentation". And yet all the documentation you show yourself is some random manual that to my knowledge doesn't have any relevance to the thread? Please, you say that you read alot of things, point me to the one that says shooters are able to maintain perfect stability for extended periods of time without an need to rest in the lulls when they are simply acquiring a target. This is not meant to be a challenge, but rather, being an inexperienced shooter, I am genuinely interested in learning more.

And for the record, just because you are able to shoot extremely well doesn't mean that everyone in arma should be able to without any need to actually try. You say you have friends in the army, so I am assume you also know that not every soldier is a pro shooter, or a perfect "specimen" with "tonnes of upper body strength" like you make them out to be. Heres a post, albeit from another game forum that I think describes this quite well.

btw that forum post is not supposed to be any form of "proof" just it happens to describe and support what I am saying. So please don't disregard it because it isn't "official".

Edited June 30, 2013 by -Coulum-

[down8 30]

Whats even more funny about this whole sway business, is that it applies to binoculars as well :D

.

The binoculars excessive sway is even more disgusting. It's very annoying and unrealistic.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Down8

[Adjutant 10]

Worked out an interesting resolution.

Give a longer "hold breath" interval (7-10 seconds) which will enable the shooter to re-center the rifle after it is thrown by a shot and send follow up shots accurately. That interval is followed by a recovery phase during which it sways (3-5 seconds). Going into sights triggers "hold breath", but what can be done to completely eliminate the "hold breath" button and to have it activate depending on context?

Edited June 30, 2013 by Adjutant

[gatordev 215]

HERE IS SOMETHING FOR EVERYONE TO CONSIDER

In-game state ---> Equivalent state in reality

Swaying and breathing while aiming down the sights ---> Simply looking through the ironsights, not: tensing muscles to stabilize weapon, fully aligning sights or practicing any form of breath control etc. to shoot accurately.

Holding breath ---> Holding breath, tensing the muscles to steady the weapon as much as possible and maintaining perfect sight alignment to fire precise shots.

Keeping a weapon perfectly steady is possible via tensing muscles and holding breath, but it is hard to do for more than a few seconds - then your muscles start to fatigue enough that fine muscle control is lost in addition to a need to inhale more O2. This introduces two states - the first, a relaxed and unlimited one, where you are simply looking down the sight to acquire your target and a second, limited one, when you are actually aiming and preparing yourself to make a precise shot. These two states are damn near perfectly demonstrated by sway and the hold breath feature in arma.

I really hope people understand this. When most people think about how steady they are when shooting in reality they think about the second state (just before they fire a shot). This is fine but it is important compare this to the proper in-game representation - when you are holding breath - not the normal sway you see when merely aiming down the sights.

If you are interested/not convinced, here is some documentation and a demonstration of what I am describing.

You shouldn't be shooting while holding your breath. You should be shooting at your natural resting exhale point. You're applying game mechanics (and dare I say, COD-type game mechanics) to real-life shooting practices, and it's not correct.

SO... when I see people say stuff like this:

I think... GOOD! You shouldn't be able to hit anything "that isn't house to house"(well more like 200 metres depending on your stance) if you aren't properly preparing to shoot precisely (hold breath).

Again, if people are saying that, they're wrong. Hitting a man-sized steel plate at 200 meters while standing with nothing more than a red dot is not that hard with some minor training. With a sling, it's even easier. Both of these are very likely within the game universe. Furthermore, the amount of weapon sway in game (at, let's say, 200m) is much more than when I stand, 200m from a target in real life with a red dot and no sling. That's what's frustrating.

This thread isn't about holding breath, its about sway. They are very interconnected however. The way I see it, tweaking sway should not be done so that you can hit targets at realistic ranges but rather tweaked in order to make holding breath (and the other preparations it represents) necessary at the realistic ranges.

See above.

1. Raise sights
   
2. Sway is as is. Lasts for a couple milliseconds to a couple seconds depending on weapon weight.
   
3. Sway goes down to its minimal as you described, as if you were holding breath. Lasts for a couple seconds depending on weapon weight and current fatigue (ie how much breath you have).
   
4. Sway increases to what it is now by default again.
   
5. The cycle can be retriggered by holding breath at any time (if you have breath and stamina to do so - triggering the cycle takes up breath).
   

The main difference is the second step. I have added this is to:

• Eliminate unrealistic twitch shooting at long range immediately after raising sights.
  
• Represent the time it takes in real life to properly align the sights and acquire your target.
  
• Give lighter weapons an advantage not only in their ability to remain accurate longer, but also to attain accuracy quicker (better for environments requiring quick precision Ie. CQB)
  

A decent compromise. But I think recoil, or more accurately, muzzle flip, needs to decreased for this to make it "more realistic."

When you seriously want to hit something in arma you should be holding your breath. To my eyes it doesn't just represent holding breath but also tensing up and preparing to fire accurately.

To me, "tensing muscles" is a better term for a keyboard (or mouse) command than "holding breath." I agree that with the weapon up, that doesn't mean you're aiming at a target. Adding a "tensing" (called "holding breath") action to shooting sequence isn't a bad solution. That said, between the recoil and having to constantly "hold my breath" with my mouse, my wrist gets tired playing the game, and that's where it starts to be less fun/entertaining. Arma 1 had a similar issue, so hopefully they can work it out, but finding the balance between fun and realistic opposed to "twitch shooter" (which I hate) is the key.

[chortles 263]

The binoculars excessive sway is even more disgusting. It's very annoying and unrealistic.

This is part of what I was talking about when I brought up the Rangefinder!

[-Coulum- 35]

You shouldn't be shooting while holding your breath. You should be shooting at your natural resting exhale point. You're applying game mechanics (and dare I say, COD-type game mechanics) to real-life shooting practices, and it's not correct.

When I say someone holds breath in reality while shooting I mean that they are not inhaling as they normally would after the exhale, drawing out that period of rest. I just figured "holding breath" would be enough for people to understand that. I know this isn't really modeled in arma (you can just hold breath regardless of what stage your respiratory cycle is in). Does COD even have hold breath?

Again, if people are saying that, they're wrong. Hitting a man-sized steel plate at 200 meters while standing with nothing more than a red dot is not that hard with some minor training. With a sling, it's even easier. Both of these are very likely within the game universe. Furthermore, the amount of weapon sway in game (at, let's say, 200m) is much more than when I stand, 200m from a target in real life with a red dot and no sling. That's what's frustrating.

But when you are aiming at 200 metres and the sway is less is this when you are actually taking the time to properly aim, or is it truly when you are in a relaxed state and just happen to be looking down the sights?

A decent compromise. But I think recoil, or more accurately, muzzle flip, needs to decreased for this to make it "more realistic."

Yeah I think that something needs to be done about recoil just not sure what. Sometimes it feels fine, but then other times it feels way to clunky. One solution might be to reduce recoil when "holding breath". Anyhow, I think its is important to try and ignore recoil while evaluating how realistic sway is.

To me, "tensing muscles" is a better term for a keyboard (or mouse) command than "holding breath." I agree that with the weapon up, that doesn't mean you're aiming at a target. Adding a "tensing" (called "holding breath") action to shooting sequence isn't a bad solution. That said, between the recoil and having to constantly "hold my breath" with my mouse, my wrist gets tired playing the game, and that's where it starts to be less fun/entertaining. Arma 1 had a similar issue, so hopefully they can work it out, but finding the balance between fun and realistic opposed to "twitch shooter" (which I hate) is the key.

tensing, aiming, focusing all would work better than hold breath imo. This is why I like the current sway system. It forces you to "holdbreath/tense/aim/focus/whatever you want to call" for shots over 200 or so metres adding this extra step to the shooting sequence, as you describe. And one step more means less chance of twitch shooting. I am glad that you also don't want a twitch shooter. But if sway is decreased as much as people want it to be I just don't see how arma could become anything but a twitch shooter with the new mouse handling.

The binoculars excessive sway is even more disgusting. It's very annoying and unrealistic.

? how is it more disgusting? its exactly the same as every other sight.

I think one thing that really throws people off about sway is that unlike in real life you have no "feel" for it. In reality you can feel your movements and compensate accordingly. In game you don't know until its too late. Adding a more predictable sway would help this a bit. The other reason I believe people dislike the sway is because they compare it to in real life when they are actually aiming. In arma they seem to expect that you don't have to take the time to properly aim (besides sliding the mouse over a few cm), yet in reality you do, even if it is relatively natural. It may seem like a OK sacrifices to just assume the character is always "aiming", but it doesn't result in realistic situations. The biggest reason for this is because in a real life extremely stressful situation (Taking effective fire) practicing proper breathing, lining up the sights properly and aiming correctly often won't be the first thing on someones mind. So having it all done automatically for the player make things alot easier than they might be in reality.

[sqb-sma 66]

Worked out an interesting resolution.

Give a longer "hold breath" interval (7-10 seconds) which will enable the shooter to re-center the rifle after it is thrown by a shot and send follow up shots accurately. That interval is followed by a recovery phase during which it sways (3-5 seconds). Going into sights triggers "hold breath", but what can be done to completely eliminate the "hold breath" button and to have it activate depending on context?

I completely agree with your argument, but I disagree about going iron sights causing you to hold your breath. I often run tactical pace with the gun up and only upon spotting a target do I hold my breath and prepare for the shot. I like the separate button approach.

Also... I don't feel like the sway's too much. Holding rmb causes the gun to be completely stable, if you're not holding rmb it's as if you just raised the gun to your shoulder without focusing on gun control. Next time you go shooting think about that, you can look down the iron sights without focusing on a target and the sway is remarkably close to, probably slightly more than, arma. Now when you see a target you tense your upper and let your steps flow, when moving there's slightly less sway irl. But when standing still? It's fine.

[-Coulum- 35]

Also... I don't feel like the sway's too much. Holding rmb causes the gun to be completely stable, if you're not holding rmb it's as if you just raised the gun to your shoulder without focusing on gun control. Next time you go shooting think about that, you can look down the iron sights without focusing on a target and the sway is remarkably close to, probably slightly more than, arma. Now when you see a target you tense your upper and let your steps flow, when moving there's slightly less sway irl. But when standing still? It's fine.

Thank you! This is what I have been trying to (but apparently doing a poor job of) get across.

[Adjutant 10]

Taking into account the horizontal and vertical in-game FOV plus average monitor size, objects in the game are roughly two times closer than they appear (!). This is ofcourse without the zoom feature.

I preferred just one sighted mode in 2001 Cold War Crisis as it made things very intuitive. Multiple levels of zoom are tedious and hard to work with (re iron sights, not telescopic ones). I think it would be best for iron sights to zoom the view just slightly. The justification behind this point is that enables to still track close range and long range to some extent (i.e. best of both worlds). Since objects in slightly zoomed will still appear further away than they actually are, ballistics of all weapons should to be shortened to 2/3 (approx.) of their real life parameters to compensate.

[Anachoretes 10]

That's what's frustrating.

I hope that the majority of players want interesting gameplay, not a theatrical production for future photo reports as he runs around with a rifle. You just have to learn how to shoot in the game. It's not hard if you're not a child.

At this point, swaying so easy to control that all claim looks ridiculous. The game has a breath-holding (which means preparing to fire a whole ), but, in reality it discreetly after training, but in the game, too. So why all these "fighters" don"t want to workout a little bit.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Anachoretes

[Wolfstriked 11]

Isnt the weapon shouldered as default though?When you go to sight and look thru the actual sight you would be tensing up while trying to get off a shot.With removed hold breath function and instead sway is minimal when you first look thru sight and then builds up you mimic the concentration and tension of getting off a few shots and then behind cover again.

[Anachoretes 10]

Nope, any shooter tense only before pulling the trigger. Otherwise, shooters became useless after 1-2 minutes. So yes, thats why we have button for this. The complexity of this process depends on the weight of weapons, stance, and the type of sÑope. Better way to simulate this not yet invented.

[Wolfstriked 11]

So what do we agree on in this thread?And will the devs change their current sway/hold breath/erratic movement etc etc system?

[lordprimate 159]

After this thread was posted i started asking people in Servers their opinion about the weapon sway and I have to admit Not a single one was on board with making it more exaggerated, in any stance.. They all agree that no one can hold a weapon still, and that sway adds to the game.. However, they all agree that its too much, and the fact that It DOES NOT AFFECT AI.. They all agree that it is over exaggerated and erratic. and needs refining.. Has anyone made a ticket for this so that i can point these people to it to vote on..

Ill say it again I agree with some amount of sway but the current system is flawed. Holding my breath in game does VERY little in the way of reducing the sway.. By the time I get lined up to shoot I am already shot and killed by AI.. Since there is an abundance of these "features" that dont affect AI.. I find that adding more of them to make it more difficult for a HUMAN to get an accurate shot, is asinine. I thought they were working on balancing the game....

I could agree on a system that makes you sway worse the more you are in scoped view or having your weapon ready. If you have your weapon lowered and come into contact. and you raise your weapon weapon sway should start to increase as you hold your weapon and shoot according to weight and fatuige. But the current system you have Extreme sway right off the bat..

These random body movements that people are using as their examples as to why weapons sway is realistic.. No one is arguing that you dont twich or move a little bit while holding a gun.. HOWEVER, the point trying to be made by many of you, is that this current system, "is not exaggurated" and "is realistic".. When you train with a weapon and do movements with this item, you gain dexterity. This transmutes into a better grip and stance and overall weapons handling.. A trained soldier would encounter less sway then an untrained Civilian.. I have stated that it has been a while since i have shot a "real" rifle. However, I remember the last time i did, and I know for sure while looking down the sites, i didn't sway like a 80 year old man with severe muscle fatuige..

EDIT:

I would like to ask the person who stated that weapon sway is easy to mod out...... "Where is the MOD???" If it is so easy how come we haven't seen one yet. how come no one has found the scripting command to reduce or "SET" the sway Oh because, people have asked repeatedly how to reduce or remove it threw scripting and not a single ARMA DEV has responded... Must be really easy.. In that case how come you haven't shown how to remove it?? L etranger, the author of VTS_Weapon_resting MOD, even states in his thread, that he has not found the command or scripting ability to mod out the sway..............

Edited July 1, 2013 by Lordprimate

[Anachoretes 10]

AI is not are reason to decrease something.

---------- Post added at 21:43 ---------- Previous post was at 21:28 ----------

So what do we agree on in this thread?

What we need? Just small polishing of "swaying". This is clearly not a hot issue.

[gatordev 215]

But when you are aiming at 200 metres and the sway is less is this when you are actually taking the time to properly aim, or is it truly when you are in a relaxed state and just happen to be looking down the sights?

With a sling (which most regulars and even irregulars are going to have, in game), it doesn't matter if I'm tensed. It's still a fairly steady sight picture at 200m and less.

tensing, aiming, focusing all would work better than hold breath imo. This is why I like the current sway system. It forces you to "holdbreath/tense/aim/focus/whatever you want to call" for shots over 200 or so metres adding this extra step to the shooting sequence, as you describe. And one step more means less chance of twitch shooting. I am glad that you also don't want a twitch shooter. But if sway is decreased as much as people want it to be I just don't see how arma could become anything but a twitch shooter with the new mouse handling.

I disagree (obviously). I never found Arma 2 to be a twitch shooter when playing MP. Some where better than others, but you still had to take the time to steady your rifle and shoot, but it wasn't the mouse exercise it is now in A3. This, for me, makes the game less fun.

All that said, it's a good discussion. Hopefully it's addressed at some point, even if it's a slider bar in the settings.

[sqb-sma 66]

AI is not are reason to decrease something.

---------- Post added at 21:43 ---------- Previous post was at 21:28 ----------

What we need? Just small polishing of "swaying". This is clearly not a hot issue.

I may be alone here but... I don't think it needs any work at all. Sure, sway's getting in the way of you making that snap shot... that's realistic (and good for gameplay, if realism aint your thing). If you practice you can get good at shooting in ArmA as you get used to the sway and holding breath features. That's what I want in a game. Something to perfect, to train, to improve. Something (skill wise, not these shitty unlocks you see in most FPSes) that separates an experienced player from a newcomer. It's something that's vitally missing in many modern games.

[-Coulum- 35]

I disagree (obviously). I never found Arma 2 to be a twitch shooter when playing MP. Some where better than others, but you still had to take the time to steady your rifle and shoot, but it wasn't the mouse exercise it is now in A3. This, for me, makes the game less fun.

You are absolutely right in that arma 2 was not a twitch shooter even without weapon sway - but there was one reason for this - negative mouse acceleration. Now that negative mouse acceleration is gone in arma 3, it opens up twitch shooting quite a bit more. Even with the current sway arma 3 is much more a twitch shooter than arma 3 (which is actually good in CQB but not so much in far range - hence weapon sway).

Its weird how, although sway can be very annoying against aimbot ai, for the most part I actually quite enjoy it (in contrast to your dislike of it). There is nothing more satisfying than seeing a guy running at angle across your view at 400 metres starting to disapperar over the horizan. You put your sights as close as you can before holding breath lining up and releasing a shot and watching it arc into him sending him into a faceplant. For me the sway and breath holding add extra challenge and immersion. Shooting is no longer just clicking on the guys. In MP when I see someone drop a guy from 500 metress out in one shot I actually commend him for his good shot, unlike arma 2 where everyone could do that with ease. The more challenge the more reward too me. That's one of the reason I like arma so much, its challenging and at times not fun/frustrating, but somehow that makes success so much more rewarding. Anyhow to each his own I guess.

With a sling (which most regulars and even irregulars are going to have, in game), it doesn't matter if I'm tensed. It's still a fairly steady sight picture at 200m and less.

Well I'll be completely honest, I have never used a sling as support while firing. It just never really seemed like it would offer that much more stability. Now that I try it, although not actually shooting something, I am actually surprised how much it helps. I would not say it is so steady to keep on target at 300 metres. In fact it isn't really all that much more stable in terms of range of motion, but the sway is much more rhythmic and consistent - more based on breathing than on random twitches of the arms. Thanks for enlightening me.

I wouldn't say that having a sling allows one to keep on target when not even trying to aim at 300 metres, but it does result in lower frequency, more consistent sway then currently ingame. The amplitude of the sway is about spot on as I see it though - just speed and path is a bit off if you are to assume the character is using a sling. i also found that the sling was hard to keep in place and change stance or orientation quickly though... how practical is it to use slings in a combat environemnt to actually support your weapon while firing do you think?

Nope, any shooter tense only before pulling the trigger. Otherwise, shooters became useless after 1-2 minutes. So yes, thats why we have button for this. The complexity of this process depends on the weight of weapons, stance, and the type of sÑope. Better way to simulate this not yet invented.

Yeah pretty much this. You won't be breathing hard after 1-2 minutes of keepin a weapon perfectly on target at 300 metres, but you will loose the fine muscle control you need to aim so precisely at that range. For me personally I find that I need to recover after just a few seconds of keeping the rifle near perfectly steady, although recover is only a few seconds as well - but I am sure more experienced shooters can manage longer.

This is one negative about your automatic tensing idea Wolfstriked - what if people just want to look through the ironsights without the need to actually aim immediately? I can see automatic hold breath upon ADS helping those who don't find the hold breath key natural enough, but I would actually prefer to be in more control. I still agree about weapon weight effecting the time it takes to aim properly and the amount of time that that proper aim lasts though.

I may be alone here but... I don't think it needs any work at all. Sure, sway's getting in the way of you making that snap shot... that's realistic (and good for gameplay, if realism aint your thing). If you practice you can get good at shooting in ArmA as you get used to the sway and holding breath features. That's what I want in a game. Something to perfect, to train, to improve. Something (skill wise, not these shitty unlocks you see in most FPSes) that separates an experienced player from a newcomer. It's something that's vitally missing in many modern games.

I am pretty happy with it as is. Of course there are many features that could be added to improve it (more figure eight is, less wondering from oringinal aim etc.) but right now I don't see any necessary. The only tweak I would like to see is a bit more on the prone simply to encourage breath control on prone when shooting at 400 metres or more. Totally agree with what you say about skill. I know that moving a mouse around isn't all that great of a skill compared to tactical thinking or communication, but it adds variety to players' abilities which imo is good.

Edited July 2, 2013 by -Coulum-