Weapon Sway Tweaking

[chortles 263]

Okay then. Sorry for not taking your original reply seriously enough - people tend to exaggerate on these types of things or sometimes they don't realize just how difficult or easy something is. I wasn't sure if you were. If you can't hit 300 metre targets while prone reliably under a couple seconds then I guess my argument of "prone is to easy compared to reality" does not apply to you in any sense.

Pretty much my experience. The thing is, in my case I can't even get that "prone" video's results without holding breath because sway is so noticeable even at prone, and the aforementioned standing/crouching sway is so high that it forces me to move aggressively to close the distance even at 200 meters or less.

It's not "oh hey this is realistically inaccurate and allows for drawn out firefights" for me, it's "I'm literally forced to move aggressively forward to close the distance because I literally cannot see the target stably enough toto waste ammo on taking a shot outside of CQB distances" for me.

[fraczek 4]

IMHO this "feature" is just bugged and plain wrong. In order to prolong firefights they are introducing an artificial handicap instead of a solution, a handicap that doesn't even apply to the AI.... I am all for prolonging Arma firefights, unlike Arma2 where every scoped weapon was an instawin in five seconds, but do it properly instead of "Battlefield x" style please...

No offence to the Quality Assurance Lead, but all that artificial sway and recoil seem to me like newly introduced "solutions" to balance things out ("Battlefield land"), instead of real solutions that would work (vis his Dev Log re: weapon recoil). And worst of all, it only applies to players not AI (vis all the tickets about bullseyeing AI in A3).

What is so difficult to just copy VBS2 figure of eight sway into Arma3? Anybody that played BIS JCOVE LITE or actual VBS Personal Edition would quite probably agree with me. And it didn't have any of the strange "recoil up into the sky" problems either (although its recoil was a little too low IMHO). Just add a tiny bit of randomness to the 8. Still it was effective enough that one had to adjust his POA (Point Of Aim) to hit anything properly, especially when under fire.

Even the UK free version of VBS (VBS Lite) had this in Arma 1 (sic!) engine for YEARS.

1) figure of eight weapon sway dependant on fatigue, stance and injury and focusing ("hold breath")

2) more realistic recoil (although underdone IMO) without any of the stupid "your weapon is now pointing to the sky after a full auto discharge" which is utterly pointless gamey balancing mechanic.

3) Player (and AI) supression when under fire, player jerking when not fatally hit. In Arma3, I get nonfatally hit my vest's plate, I don't even jerk a tiny bit just continue fighting...In VBS your POA would instantly jerk a lot, putting you offtarget, your view would change (postprocess) making it much harder to return fire. Same for AI IIRC.

Another problem with the random weapon sway is that it is bugged! See the ticket on 3D Sights. It's about parallax. There is misalignment between the sights Point Of Aim and Point Of Impact that is dependent of head (eye?) position in Idle animation, but this misalignment:

1) only happens in Prone position, where you would be most focused on the sight view,

2) Does not happen in Standing or Crouched positions, or is much less there, contrary to common sense,

3) It isnot dependant on Holding Breath/Focusing at all because it is "feature" of Idle animation apparently,

4) It is not communicated to the player at all, bullets just land elsewhere than the Point Of Aim (crosshairs) is, unlike RL where you would have at least a tiny indication you are not aligned with the scope properly for your target distance (crosshair moving over target, scope borders blacking out).

5) Is not consistent with the scopes used, because the HAMR/ACOG style scopes are supposed (according to manufacturers' specs, 1st hand users correct me if wrong) to be paralax-free in the vertical axis to allow rangefinding with the reticules, while the paralax errors happen in both axes.

---------- Post added at 01:29 ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 ----------

All in all, I am all for prolonging average firefights in A3, because in A2 it was more like press RMB, line up, estimate distance, shoot, repeat for next target, 10 NME down in 5 seconds (if they are at least 200m from you so they stick out on the plain texture). But NOT by introducing overly ridiculous gamey handicaps with modelled but unusable bipods. Just do it PROPERLY. Instead of better configured AI (why do we even have to use mods like ASR_AI to get more realistic shooting AI? Not bullseying you from 200m with a pistol - happened to me in a mission unless the death screen info was bugged) from the start, missing Stratis midrange textures (again, why do we have to use a workaround like Babe_Midtex instead of proper midrange clutter textures which according to some reports have even been in A2?) to at least somewhat mitigate the scoped view advantage, et cetera?

Edited June 28, 2013 by fraczek

[Anachoretes 10]

It's about parallax.

You mean this?

I tying to shot from 12mm and SOS on 1km. And I found a very strange MOA for this guns.

figure of eight weapon sway dependant on fatigue, stance and injury and focusing

Now the same. Idle sway mininal. Determined by the weight and "fine-tuning" work of muscles.

[metalcraze 290]

People you do realize that it's exactly the same sway that was there since 5th of march? It's exactly the same sway that CQB sights have? And all that optics do is magnify your whole screen so it looks to you as if sway was increased. And if BIS is to decrease sway the guns will become laser-precise within 200m? Or even worse?

If BIS won't add weapon resting they can remove sway at 'Recruit' - but it's perfect right now. Because it prevents 1 shot 1 kill with carbines that plagued ArmA2 where you could just line up M4 aimpoint dot at 300m and hit fire and the dude will be dead. Now doing that takes practice and skill.

"I'm literally forced to move aggressively forward to close the distance because I literally cannot see the target stably enough toto waste ammo on taking a shot outside of CQB distances" for me.

So what's wrong with this? Closer distance makes you more likely to hit the enemy. It's OK. Why would you shoot someone while carrying a carbine from afar anyway?

For me sway becomes mostly harmless already when kneeling and if it's still too much - just hold breath.

[Anachoretes 10]

metalcraze

They dont.

[chortles 263]

People you do realize that it's exactly the same sway that was there since 5th of march? It's exactly the same sway that CQB sights have? And all that optics do is magnify your whole screen so it looks to you as if sway was increased.

Just responding to this point: I don't even bother with using the standalone collimators, only the magnified optics, due to how quickly (distance-wise) I lose the ability to see an enemy even with zooming in.

So what's wrong with this? Closer distance makes you more likely to hit the enemy. It's OK. Why would you shoot someone while carrying a carbine from afar anyway?

Who said anything about using a carbine? My testing was with the basic BLUFOR Rifleman and therefore the basic-length MX, only changes were swapping the optic and adding a Rangefinder (to verify distance-to-target).

For me sway becomes mostly harmless already when kneeling

... yeah, see, for me it's barely mitigated by kneeling, only when prone is the difference noticeable.

and if it's still too much - just hold breath.

Oh, I do that -- the issue is that I have to do that for every "aiming", much less every shot, that isn't "house to house", and I believe the discussion was re: sway when not holding breath.

[metalcraze 290]

Who said anything about using a carbine? My testing was with the basic BLUFOR Rifleman and therefore the basic-length MX, only changes were swapping the optic and adding a Rangefinder (to verify distance-to-target).

Technically "basic-length" MX is a carbine although there's also MXC.

But anyway - the new, correct (gun shakes in your hands instead of world shaking around you like it was before), perspective made it harder but after some practice (aka just playing the game) I hit targets with it without much effort. Yes it's harder now than it was before with 2d overlay but that's great. My only issue is that red/green aiming markings are seen worse now because they appear darker than they should be.

At a distance of 300m it's a lot more effective (and correct) to just go prone and take your time aiming and hitting things. So do just that. After some time just playing the game it becomes a lot easier.

Again I don't mind sway being minimized at recruit. If you play at veteran you are kinda stating you know what you are doing anyway.

[chortles 263]

Technically "basic-length" MX is a carbine although there's also MXC.

By that measure, isn't the only "full length" MX rifle the MXM, with the MX SW somewhere in between? I do agree with those whose complaint was that the sway isn't in the basic figure-8 shape though, the amount of sway isn't as much a problem in comparison.

My only issue is that red/green aiming markings are seen worse now because they appear darker than they should be.

An interesting point for me is that this effect is much moreso with the red (RCO) than the green (ARCO/MRCO) to the point where I swap the RCO out whenever I get the chance, the latter seems superior for this reason.

At a distance of 300m it's a lot more effective (and correct) to just go prone and take your time aiming and hitting things. So do just that. After some time just playing the game it becomes a lot easier.

I would agree re: proning, which I do when I have that "line of sight" option... but from most of the time the grass is in the way :p and I can only "get around that" (the obstruction by glass) by positioning just below the crest of a hill or by sitting.

Mind you, I'm talking about Regular here -- Recruit is "besides the point" as far as I'm concerned.

[fujix 11]

If BIS won't add weapon resting they can remove sway at 'Recruit' - but it's perfect right now. Because it prevents 1 shot 1 kill with carbines that plagued ArmA2 where you could just line up M4 aimpoint dot at 300m and hit fire and the dude will be dead. Now doing that takes practice and skill.

Takes skill my ass. Sway is random. You just have to wait until it passes your target. Has nothing to do with skill.

And no sway is nowhere near perfect now. Its badly overdone and implemented.

[fraczek 4]

Metalcraze, I think nobody would want to bring back the old boring A2 way of comfortably plinking targets 600m away with complete ease.

But surely you must realize that as it stands now, already in the Beta stage - whereas Alpha was supposed to by focused solely on infantry (getting infantry right in the first place!) - it is lacking.

Very random sway (I can't see any rhythm at all), coupled with the exagerated recoil and nonexistent recoil management or bipods/resting, animation errors that exagerate paralax difference between POA & POI in prone position (and prone position only!), might be taken to the other extreme.

Try making a two rapid sucession fire hit a man sized target at 200m with an assault rifle with the 4x optic from crouched position...

[Anachoretes 10]

Sway must be random. Only in prone he should come to rhytmic work.

[WildFire6 10]

This thread has beautiful promise but fails to deliver. Arma is a simulator. Sway is shit. unless your moving if you standing still that needs to go away in every position. "I think this and I think that...." is wonderful for freedom of speech and sharing one's opinion however its not based in reality and is not helping dev's produce a game that is realistic. Im sure there are a lot of people like me who could care less how fast we can kill an enemy. We just want weapons to act as they do in RL. For anyone who has put rounds down range, knows full well that rifles act a bit differently in RL. We also know that popular opinion is winning this fight, it has already shown true on the feedback tracker. People who think they know how weapons react outnumber those with actual combat and shooting experience. Those who should be regarded as experts in the field are being outposted and argued with by others with no experience.

Im not sure of the outcome of this and who will eventually win, however I know that BIS is dedicated to providing a realistic experience so I have faith. I cant comment on combat myself, but I shoot and have shot thousands and thousands of dollars worth of ammunition in as many rifles as the military and civilian markets would let me put my hands on. Almost all the friends I have kept in contact with since highschool(~15 years) have combat experience besides me, but not me. I claim to be no expert. I want to hear from the guys who's job is to be shot at. What I want from this game is exactly how they describe firing under pressure, in the dirt and mud and with the heat, and there's not going to be a single opinion here that should be higher regarded IMO. You dont hire a huey pilot to program a A-10 simulator, I would hope they dont use popular opinion to program a realistic shooting model.

[fujix 11]

This thread has beautiful promise but fails to deliver. Arma is a simulator. Sway is shit. unless your moving if you standing still that needs to go away in every position. "I think this and I think that...." is wonderful for freedom of speech and sharing one's opinion however its not based in reality and is not helping dev's produce a game that is realistic. Im sure there are a lot of people like me who could care less how fast we can kill an enemy. We just want weapons to act as they do in RL. For anyone who has put rounds down range, knows full well that rifles act a bit differently in RL. We also know that popular opinion is winning this fight, it has already shown true on the feedback tracker. People who think they know how weapons react outnumber those with actual combat and shooting experience. Those who should be regarded as experts in the field are being outposted and argued with by others with no experience.

Im not sure of the outcome of this and who will eventually win, however I know that BIS is dedicated to providing a realistic experience so I have faith. I cant comment on combat myself, but I shoot and have shot thousands and thousands of dollars worth of ammunition in as many rifles as the military and civilian markets would let me put my hands on. Almost all the friends I have kept in contact with since highschool(~15 years) have combat experience besides me, but not me. I claim to be no expert. I want to hear from the guys who's job is to be shot at. What I want from this game is exactly how they describe firing under pressure, in the dirt and mud and with the heat, and there's not going to be a single opinion here that should be higher regarded IMO. You dont hire a huey pilot to program a A-10 simulator, I would hope they dont use popular opinion to program a realistic shooting model.

Finally someone that speaks sense, instead of the weird ideas from the so called "realism" dudes that dont have a clue what they are talking about.

Stupid artificial mechanics that gimp gameplay does NOT equal realism...

[Wolfstriked 11]

I like the sway and the hold breath function but feel the area needs work.Right now it sways and when you hold breath you get 6 seconds to get aimpoint on target and fire and then you release breath and weapon moves even more.Consecutive shots get only 2 seconds of stability before the erratic movement when you release your breath.This is first area that could be addressed.Should we only get 2 seconds after first shot is fired or maybe an extension of the hold breath time?

But IMO this can be an area that can give differences to weapon classes.....I post this idea alot but it gets ignored without even a counter argument.

Holding a heavy weapon or an unbalanced weapon with the weight too far forward will cause fatigue quicker in real life.Some weapons like bullpups and carbines have a benefit of less fatigue due to weight distribution and so I feel they could get either a longer hold breath duration(12 secs) or get a full 6 seconds of hold breath after first shot is fired.

And also the prone position needs to have a release breath penalty as it seems non existent right now.

[fujix 11]

I like the sway and the hold breath function but feel the area needs work.Right now it sways and when you hold breath you get 6 seconds to get aimpoint on target and fire and then you release breath and weapon moves even more.Consecutive shots get only 2 seconds of stability before the erratic movement when you release your breath.This is first area that could be addressed.Should we only get 2 seconds after first shot is fired or maybe an extension of the hold breath time?

But IMO this can be an area that can give differences to weapon classes.....I post this idea alot but it gets ignored without even a counter argument.

Holding a heavy weapon or an unbalanced weapon with the weight too far forward will cause fatigue quicker in real life.Some weapons like bullpups and carbines have a benefit of less fatigue due to weight distribution and so I feel they could get either a longer hold breath duration(12 secs) or get a full 6 seconds of hold breath after first shot is fired.

And also the prone position needs to have a release breath penalty as it seems non existent right now.

Adding sway to larger and heavier weapons sounds like a great idea when standing for example. But doubt thats going to happen considering how simplified all the weapons seem to be (same caliber, same amount of sway etc etc). Just feels like all weapons have almost identical stats with different skins.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Not more sway but a difference in the fatigue you get when you aim(hold breath).Carbines could get a longer hold breath time OR they could get the default 6 seconds of hold breath after first shot(right now you get 6secs of hold breath and then after that its 2 secs for each shot).I say its better this way as more sway then we have now would make snipers impossible to aim when standing.

[fujix 11]

I think you misunderstood me :)

What I suggest is massively reducing sway across the board. Then add some sway for heavier weapon types for non-prone stances.

[Anachoretes 10]

Finally someone that speaks sense,

Are you kidding? He say "No sway". Thats all. Weapon not swaying only when firing, and maybe on bipods or rested. Just short period of time. And in this game thats call "Hold breath".

[Wolfstriked 11]

I think you misunderstood me :)

What I suggest is massively reducing sway across the board. Then add some sway for heavier weapon types for non-prone stances.

What about a system where sway is reduced across the board when you first raise the weapon to fire.I am talking the sway you have when you "hold breath" is what you start with.Then it starts to increase the amount of sway at a speed that is dependent on the actual weight/balance of the weapon itself to where after a certain amount of time the weapon is swaying the way it does when you release your breath.The only way to reduce it is to lower weapon for a bit.This could be also tied in to the stamina level from running so that heavily weighted down players will be swaying like crazy moving from place to place.

[gatordev 218]

This thread has beautiful promise but fails to deliver. Arma is a simulator. Sway is shit. unless your moving if you standing still that needs to go away in every position. "I think this and I think that...." is wonderful for freedom of speech and sharing one's opinion however its not based in reality and is not helping dev's produce a game that is realistic. Im sure there are a lot of people like me who could care less how fast we can kill an enemy. We just want weapons to act as they do in RL. For anyone who has put rounds down range, knows full well that rifles act a bit differently in RL. We also know that popular opinion is winning this fight, it has already shown true on the feedback tracker. People who think they know how weapons react outnumber those with actual combat and shooting experience. Those who should be regarded as experts in the field are being outposted and argued with by others with no experience.

Well said. It's much easier for me to shoot a man-sized target with multiple calibers (5.56 especially, but also .308) in real life than it is in-game. The biggest problem for me is not recoil (while annoying), but sway.

What about a system where sway is reduced across the board when you first raise the weapon to fire.I am talking the sway you have when you "hold breath" is what you start with.Then it starts to increase the amount of sway at a speed that is dependent on the actual weight/balance of the weapon itself to where after a certain amount of time the weapon is swaying the way it does when you release your breath.The only way to reduce it is to lower weapon for a bit.This could be also tied in to the stamina level from running so that heavily weighted down players will be swaying like crazy moving from place to place.

This is an interesting idea and could (theoretically) be a good solution. One reason I'm still playing BIS games since 2001 is because they listen to their users and allow "us" to modify the game, so hopefully the whole issue is addressed at some point in the future.

[roshnak 41]

What about a system where sway is reduced across the board when you first raise the weapon to fire.I am talking the sway you have when you "hold breath" is what you start with.Then it starts to increase the amount of sway at a speed that is dependent on the actual weight/balance of the weapon itself to where after a certain amount of time the weapon is swaying the way it does when you release your breath.The only way to reduce it is to lower weapon for a bit.This could be also tied in to the stamina level from running so that heavily weighted down players will be swaying like crazy moving from place to place.

I like this idea, but if it's implemented wrong it would just result in people scoping in and out to reduce sway again.

[skryme 10]

Nice !

[-Coulum- 35]

HERE IS SOMETHING FOR EVERYONE TO CONSIDER

In-game state ---> Equivalent state in reality

Swaying and breathing while aiming down the sights ---> Simply looking through the ironsights, not: tensing muscles to stabilize weapon, fully aligning sights or practicing any form of breath control etc. to shoot accurately.

Holding breath ---> Holding breath, tensing the muscles to steady the weapon as much as possible and maintaining perfect sight alignment to fire precise shots.

Keeping a weapon perfectly steady is possible via tensing muscles and holding breath, but it is hard to do for more than a few seconds - then your muscles start to fatigue enough that fine muscle control is lost in addition to a need to inhale more O2. This introduces two states - the first, a relaxed and unlimited one, where you are simply looking down the sight to acquire your target and a second, limited one, when you are actually aiming and preparing yourself to make a precise shot. These two states are damn near perfectly demonstrated by sway and the hold breath feature in arma.

I really hope people understand this. When most people think about how steady they are when shooting in reality they think about the second state (just before they fire a shot). This is fine but it is important compare this to the proper in-game representation - when you are holding breath - not the normal sway you see when merely aiming down the sights.

If you are interested/not convinced, here is some documentation and a demonstration of what I am describing.

I know this is for pistol marksmanship but it applies to shooting in general. Read the first page of chapter one. It talks about exactly what I am saying.

http://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/wars_and_weapons/Pistol_Marksmanship.pdf

There are also informative sections on Breath control Pg.14 and Concentration Pg.19 that are also very relevant to this topic.

This vid demonstrates how shooters don't constantly have steady aim but rather steady their aim immediately before making there shot.

Notice the shooter's sights and sway are pretty bad but about half a second before he takes his shots his sights become aligned and steady. He shoots - and then relaxes, his sights once again loosing stability. In arma this equates to normal sway, to acquire the target, hold breath, shoot, and return to normal sway. His sights aren't aligned and perfectly steady the entire time as people seem to think they should be in arma.

SO... when I see people say stuff like this:

Oh, I do that -- the issue is that I have to do that for every "aiming", much less every shot, that isn't "house to house", and I believe the discussion was re: sway when not holding breath.

I think... GOOD! You shouldn't be able to hit anything "that isn't house to house"(well more like 200 metres depending on your stance) if you aren't properly preparing to shoot precisely (hold breath).

This thread isn't about holding breath, its about sway. They are very interconnected however. The way I see it, tweaking sway should not be done so that you can hit targets at realistic ranges but rather tweaked in order to make holding breath (and the other preparations it represents) necessary at the realistic ranges.

The question is how much sway should there be to encourage players to hold breath at realistic ranges, NOT how much sway should there be so that players can hit at realistic ranges.

For me, I have to hold my breath at around 200-300 for standing, 250-350 for crouch and a whopping 800 for prone. You can see how there is sort of an inconsistency there and this is the reason I suggest making sway for prone increased, to encourage me to start having to hold breath more around 400m - 500m.

Does that perhaps change anyone's opinion or at least enlighten people more on what all us people saying "sway is realistic" are talking about (damn well better I spent alot of time writing that response up:))

What about a system where sway is reduced across the board when you first raise the weapon to fire.I am talking the sway you have when you "hold breath" is what you start with.Then it starts to increase the amount of sway at a speed that is dependent on the actual weight/balance of the weapon itself to where after a certain amount of time the weapon is swaying the way it does when you release your breath.The only way to reduce it is to lower weapon for a bit.This could be also tied in to the stamina level from running so that heavily weighted down players will be swaying like crazy moving from place to place.

This is a good idea but I think it could use refinement. The big problem I see is that it will actually encourage quick snap shooting. It will not fix the arma 2 problem of people being able to immediately shoot accurately without first having to put some sort of concentration in. Here's what I suggest:

1. Raise sights
   
2. Sway is as is. Lasts for a couple milliseconds to a couple seconds depending on weapon weight.
   
3. Sway goes down to its minimal as you described, as if you were holding breath. Lasts for a couple seconds depending on weapon weight and current fatigue (ie how much breath you have).
   
4. Sway increases to what it is now by default again.
   
5. The cycle can be retriggered by holding breath at any time (if you have breath and stamina to do so - triggering the cycle takes up breath).
   

The main difference is the second step. I have added this is to:

• Eliminate unrealistic twitch shooting at long range immediately after raising sights.
  
• Represent the time it takes in real life to properly align the sights and acquire your target.
  
• Give lighter weapons an advantage not only in their ability to remain accurate longer, but also to attain accuracy quicker (better for environments requiring quick precision Ie. CQB)
  

I would love to see this and I think it matches up quite nicely to what is described in the manual I linked in the spoiler above (first page of chapter one, "attaining a minimum arc of movement").

What do you think?

[chortles 263]

Just to be clear, I was stating in that quote that I couldn't even really aim at a target/get a sight picture past "house to house" distances (if even -- I suppose I should revise this to "same room") without holding breath.

[-Coulum- 35]

Just to be clear, I was stating in that quote that I couldn't even really aim at a target/get a sight picture past "house to house" distances (if even -- I suppose I should revise this to "same room") without holding breath.

Hmm... I figured by aim you meant put the reticle on the target - if you have trouble even acquiring a target because of sway... I don't know what to say...

My above point still stands though. People seem to think sway is implemented to limit their ability to hit at all and therefore judging tweaks off of that. Instead sway is simply supposed to get you to properly aim via hold breath - hold breath is limited however forcing the player to allocate and pace his accurate shooting accordingly, instead of constantly dealing it ala arma 2. I am interested to know what people think of this POV.

Edited June 30, 2013 by -Coulum-