‘Simulation fever’ - No bipods without weapon resting?

[Mirudes 1]

Creative Director Jay Crowe: We have really realistic weapon modells and they have bipods on them, then we don't do another -like weapon resting- this is a discord between these two things. . .

ARMA 3 - E3 2012 Stage Demo. Gamespot video on YouTube (Time: 20.07)

From the 3rd minute on he is talking about the fact that ArmA3 is going to be a game with a high amount of simulation in it and so on. From the 14th minute on he is saying something like:

Creative Director Jay Crowe:

I think you have to make sensible choices.

(There is something called) Ian Bogost, he is a american games writer, he wrote a really interesting piece on ‘simulation fever’. I don't get too detailed about it but it really affected my way of thinking. He defines simulation as ‘Mapping the real world onto a set of mechanics’ and ‘Simulation fever’ is when you do one thing but you don't do another. (...) We have really realistic weapon modells and they have bipods on them, then we don't do another -like weapon resting- this is a discord between these two things and it can really pop in peoples minds and it ruins everything for them.

By the way: The name of the author and of the book is:

Bogost, Ian. Unit Operations: An Approach to Videogame Criticism

‘Simulation fever’ is a chapter in that book, and if I have understood him right, Jay Crowe believes that the player accepts or rejects a simulation, caused by the fact that when you have one part of a feature simulated, you automatically desires the connected (or opposed?) parts of the same feature.

That is bugging me now: When they are going to realize a feature, are they really thinking first if they have included all possibilities for that feature?

Can someone give me other examples with already realized features? Like volumetric clouds, brakelights, Picture-In-Picture (PiP) or flickering heat?

The given example with the Bipods - connected with the (still missing) feature of ’weapon resting’ is from Creative Director Jay Crowe.

[all3n 1]

i, too, am a bit distraught that they have not answered any (if only a couple) questions about weapon resting or bipods. i would love to hear some feedback from the devs!

[gossamersolid 155]

I really think we need weapon resting/bipods. It adds a lot to the gameplay and there are quite a few games that have it including the "unrealistic" Battlefield 3.

[all3n 1]

BF3 Also has detachable bipods, something that i think would be a cool feature

[EDcase 87]

Yes, we'd like weapon resting and bipods to work but to be honest its not going to be SO amazingly different from what we have now.

[Sneakson 1]

Weapon resting would make a big difference for other stances than prone though. And there's a mod that already does it spectacularly from what I've seen of it. Can't BIS just ask to borrow the code?

[steele6 0]

I'm pretty sure they would consider it, but as of now, its a minor feature, they are probably working on the beta, and Q3 release first (units, story, vehicles, missions, and tweaks to game mechanics,[such as walk speed]) have patience, they will deliver.

lets not badger BIS with EVERY little thing they say off-hand

[Wolfstriked 11]

Great post.Reminds me of an article I read about game balance and how realism wins even though the game can become badly one sided.Was a brilliant piece but alas I never saved it.I will say that simulation fever usually is the reason that I stop playing flight sims.I start out amazed and super immersed into the excellent simulations that are out but then I stumble upon something that is not tied to reality and my immersion melts away and I am left doubting it all.Its a crazy thing to experience with every game I try and I wish I was not like this as it ruins games for me.

For example two top notch sims.Rise of Flight is just freaking amazing and I was so in love with it till I noticed that I was pumping so many shots into cockpits with little effect.I then found out that the player model is very relaxed and it takes quite a few shots to kill or injure.Then my simulation fever set in and I was set out of the world.Another one is with DCS A10c and the way the plane veers like crazy under braking.You cant even lightly brake as the effect seems canned and just forces you to dance the pedals.Instant simulation fever for me there as my main past time was simply doing crosswind landings.Racing sims are another one where I would read a book and try a steup tweak and nada and simulation fever would set in.Its funny how if the game is not set out to simulation level I can easily overlook anything.I will be honest and say that I had quite a few moments where I almost got depressed thinking that the end was near for Arma3 but A3 is just too much dam fun

[Taisen75 1]

I'm pretty sure they would consider it, but as of now, its a minor feature, they are probably working on the beta, and Q3 release first (units, story, vehicles, missions, and tweaks to game mechanics,[such as walk speed]) have patience, they will deliver.

lets not badger BIS with EVERY little thing they say off-hand

Over 1500 votes on the feedback tracker and its a minor feature? Its one of the most wanted features, priorities.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=432

[ProfTournesol 956]

I'm pretty sure they would consider it, but as of now, its a minor feature, they are probably working on the beta, and Q3 release first (units, story, vehicles, missions, and tweaks to game mechanics,[such as walk speed]) have patience, they will deliver.

lets not badger BIS with EVERY little thing they say off-hand

A minor feature that has been asked and modded for years.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Here is one simulation fever example from Arma3.I load up my machine gunner character with 8-100 round clips and then run out quickly from firing on only around 20 targets due to ridiculous recoil.I gave up on the MXSW in game until I found the "VTS simple weapon resting" mod and my fever abaded.

[Smurf 12]

Its not minor.

This whole video wouldn't be the same thing without resting\bipods:

Some flags should be raised when arcade shooters have this as default the the "Ultimate Simulator" (back cover of A2 pic pending) doesn't. A3 is catching up with last gen games, what about this one?

Also, MGs are an integral part of infantry tactics along with supression (WIP?), so yeah, it makes all the diference.

[scarecrow398 43]

I don't think it's not that BI doesn't know about peoples complaints, I think it's likely there's probably a whiteboard in some corner of their office with different suggestions on it about how to implement it.

The problem isn't that they don't want to do it or don't recognize the issue, the thing is that being the developers they are they want to find a way to do it properly and realistically but also not spend the time between now and the projected release just working on bipods, rather than just making a clicking sound, having the weapon jump and suddenly having less recoil and aiming speed.

For example look at the weapon attachments, prior to Arma 3 you would have a scroll menu or a key assigned that would switch the entire model just to change between a laser and a flashlight or a suppressor and a non-suppressor, now you have an nice UI, animations for the changing of items on weapons (abiet with a invisible screwdriver), lag free swapping unlike in the past.

[Smurf 12]

^ While a great advance within the series, nothing major compared with... anything else. Just like many other little things.

Luckly (or sadly; POV) Arma is racing alone.

[Taisen75 1]

I don't think it's not that BI doesn't know about peoples complaints, I think it's likely there's probably a whiteboard in some corner of their office with different suggestions on it about how to implement it.

The problem isn't that they don't want to do it or don't recognize the issue, the thing is that being the developers they are they want to find a way to do it properly and realistically but also not spend the time between now and the projected release just working on bipods, rather than just making a clicking sound, having the weapon jump and suddenly having less recoil and aiming speed.

For example look at the weapon attachments, prior to Arma 3 you would have a scroll menu or a key assigned that would switch the entire model just to change between a laser and a flashlight or a suppressor and a non-suppressor, now you have an nice UI, animations for the changing of items on weapons (abiet with a invisible screwdriver), lag free swapping unlike in the past.

Thats not the point really, the point is this has been one of the most wanted features for years now. But still its not in the game, and might/will not even make it into the game before full release. Theres so much stuff I would rather have seen out of the game, to make place for this and other nice features (which again has been accomplished by ACE for years now).

[Insanatrix 0]

I find the in game recoil to be quite high considering every gun literally has a front grip or a hybrid bipod/front grip. I think that coupled with the fact that there's really no way to alleviate that recoil except going prone, which isn't always the best answer especially in CQB or closer ranged engagements, exacerbates the need for some sort of weapon resting or recoil tuning. It's been said that recoil tuning is underway, there was a blog post about it and everything sounded good.

Weapon resting should still be a priority though because it adds a tactical element to the game play. If I'm taking cover behind a smoking wreck, a Hunter or an Ifrit, even just a low wall or a window I need to be able to stabilize my rifle without having to go prone. It's even worse when you see bipods on weapons, and they're literally just for show.

[zooloo75 833]

I don't consider something that I'm going to be using throughout the entire game a "minor feature".

It's the little things that count.

[nodunit 397]

I wouldn't call weapon resting a minor addition, it's not something like opening doors or avionics on aircraft, it's an infantry dedicated feature.

Since Arma is infantry dedicated nearly any feature for infantry would not be "minor", secondly bipods and weapon resting would compliment the stance features in that-

A. Weapon resting gives the various stances even more personality and importance in that not only could you use cover for protection but also the height of it to mitigate some of the recoil, thus the varying heights of objects and stances become even more mechanically driven.

B. Bipods have been asked and modded in for years, there is an obvious high demand but they would compliment the stance system just the same..in doing this you achieve more reality, functionality and earn browny points with consumers.

Edited June 21, 2013 by NodUnit

[Hartmann 10]

Weapon resting and bipods are a complete gamechanger, I don't know what you're smoking when you say that 'it doesn't matter all that much'.

[froggyluv 2130]

Also would like to see this implemented in Vanilla -yes theres a minimod, ACE and INV44 all have it -but this is integral to basic infantry fighting and given that this is considered primarily an infantry game... Also, hate to say it but many newer gamers just have a hard time/give up when I'm running a mod on a server. Small but essential features such as this are better off mod-free imo.

[EDcase 87]

I find the in game recoil to be quite high considering every gun literally has a front grip or a hybrid bipod/front grip...

THAT's a big part of the problem. Recoil is too high at least in lower stances where you should be more stable.

Vote to reduce recoil with lower stances...

I haven't tried the mod version yet.

What about turning? Does it pivot on the resting position as it should?

Then your body will slide left and right as you rotate...

Presumably when prone you would have very limited lateral movement while deployed.

Again, when aiming left and right your legs will be sliding a lot.

Edited June 21, 2013 by EDcase

[Insanatrix 0]

THATs a big part of the problem. Recoil is too high at least in lower stances where you should be more stable.

Vote to reduce recoil with lower stances...

I agree, but I also agree that weapon resting has a very important and tactical impact on the game play. I already voted on that ticket, and I also know from the blog post that they are working on it.

Recoil isn't exactly too high, it's the way you recover from it or the lack of recovery. The weapon just keeps climbing without any resettling, unless you are in prone. A trained shooter firing single shots at a target 200m down range with a proper optic should be deadly.

[EDcase 87]

...it's the way you recover from it or the lack of recovery...

I don't think the recoil should reset back to fire position. The climb is there to make it more interesting and skillfull to stay on target.

The problem is that the climb is a bit too strong when standing and should reduce with lower stances. Then it would be more effective while still challenging.

I wonder how difficult it is to make the weapon resting work on all those rocks!?!??!

Edited June 21, 2013 by EDcase

[PN11A 2]

I find the in game recoil to be quite high considering every gun literally has a front grip or a hybrid bipod/front grip. I think that coupled with the fact that there's really no way to alleviate that recoil except going prone, which isn't always the best answer especially in CQB or closer ranged engagements, exacerbates the need for some sort of weapon resting or recoil tuning. It's been said that recoil tuning is underway, there was a blog post about it and everything sounded good.

Weapon resting should still be a priority though because it adds a tactical element to the game play. If I'm taking cover behind a smoking wreck, a Hunter or an Ifrit, even just a low wall or a window I need to be able to stabilize my rifle without having to go prone. It's even worse when you see bipods on weapons, and they're literally just for show.

Learn to shoot I say. Part of being a assaulter is knowing how to shoot. There is no replacement for skill. Are you playing on full auto? are you shooting burst? You alleviate the recoil by managing it, if your taking cover and you put your on top of said cover then proceed to take shots you are no longer taking cover. If its a low wall you have to go prone...

I think its a major issue mainly because people are looking for some sort of excuse for sucking at shooting. Bi pods can aid in your ability but to say that the game is completely unsound without resting weapons is an overstatement. If it can be so easily modded why waste development time on such a task? Dont forget they are still a business they have to pay for the artist time while working on this project. So time is spent on really important things, like broken animations, broken textures, physics and engine flaws.

[zooloo75 833]

I could make a bipod script for missions if anyone is interested.