Bohemia Interactive @ E3 2013 - DISCUSSION

[Droikka 1]

Tell that to UT or minecraft or the numerouss mmo's games that allow members to design everything from maps to clothing.

Because the concept of these games are similar to the ArmA. :rolleyes:

[Masharra 10]

That is so wrong on so many levels. I also urge you to grab RHS and hop in a bmp and and say they are lower quality than BIS produced items.

If you arent familiar with RHS I urge you to create some coop missions with it. Wonderful just wonderful!

Edited June 19, 2013 by Masharra

[Alwarren 2767]

You can't take an addon as a professional studio.

Why not? Granted, you will have to have to contractually make the transfers of ownership, but why wouldn't that not work? A lot of game studios outsource their content creation, and buying your assets from a company basically is the same.

Most addons use things from other sources. If someone notices even a small copy from a copyrighted source, the studio gets in a world of shit.

What makes you think that most addons use things from other sources? Mine don't, and I am quite sure a lot of them don't.

Trust me, it's easier/ saves time to simply make the assets yourself than to receive them from a community.

Is there any particular reason why I should trust you on this? I mean, where I work we already did similar things (with source code, not assets, but it boils down to the same thing).

The only option BIS has is to out-source the production of assets.

In how far is out-sourcing any different than community content? Of course there is a lot of mediocre and bad content out there, but there are teams that consistently bring out absolutely top notch content. As someone else already mentioned, RHS is a good example that comes to mind right now because we're recently played a lot of missions for that.

This usually doesn't fall in the quality standards of a studio, as the out-sourced assets are not within the same level of quality as the other assets of a game. This means a large extra production cost and takes a lot of time.

My solution is to have all your assets extremely high-quality, for the community of ArmA will bring the lower quality/ less time consuming content such as re-skins and simple models.

I am not sure whether I should laugh at this, or worry... have you actually looked at some of the content out there? RHS? Virtually ANYTHING from RKSL-Rock? Proejct RACS? Some of these modders are actually professionals in the field. (Apologies to all the top notch modders out there I didn't mention. I took a look at the vehicle download list on Armaholic and just mentioned some of them).

This community has extremely talented modders.

[pawelkpl 29]

To put you more in perspective, there are going to be two wheeled APCs for Arma 3 Beta. Making interiors for drivers and gunners would mean there would be only one of them because of time constraints. Speaking just for myself, I would prefer to have at least some armoured vehicle for both Blue and Red rather to stand on the side without any such stuff against better equipped enemy with interiors I would never see :icon_twisted:

I understand above as follow:

1. Both of APCs have drivers interiors.

2. No gunner interiors.

Am I right or I miss something ?

[Droikka 1]

Why not? Granted, you will have to have to contractually make the transfers of ownership, but why wouldn't that not work? A lot of game studios outsource their content creation, and buying your assets from a company basically is the same.

What makes you think that most addons use things from other sources? Mine don't, and I am quite sure a lot of them don't.

Is there any particular reason why I should trust you on this? I mean, where I work we already did similar things (with source code, not assets, but it boils down to the same thing).

In how far is out-sourcing any different than community content? Of course there is a lot of mediocre and bad content out there, but there are teams that consistently bring out absolutely top notch content. As someone else already mentioned, RHS is a good example that comes to mind right now because we're recently played a lot of missions for that.

I am not sure whether I should laugh at this, or worry... have you actually looked at some of the content out there? RHS? Virtually ANYTHING from RKSL-Rock? Proejct RACS? Some of these modders are actually professionals in the field. (Apologies to all the top notch modders out there I didn't mention. I took a look at the vehicle download list on Armaholic and just mentioned some of them).

This community has extremely talented modders.

This community takes years to produce the content. Of course, I wouldn't know for I don't mod for this game.

[Alwarren 2767]

That is so wrong on so many levels. I also urge you to grab RHS and hop in a bmp and and say they are lower quality than BIS produced items.

If you arent familiar with RHS I urge you to create some coop missions with it. Wonderful just wonderful!

Thanks Mashara, that video demonstrates it quite nicely :)

Note that I am not trying to say my idea is any good, nor do I try to defend it because it was my idea. I do think however that BIS should consider tapping into that community pool that they have, and I vehemently deny any claims that community content is of lesser quality - there are plenty of examples out there that are of the highest standards.

---------- Post added at 14:55 ---------- Previous post was at 14:54 ----------

This community takes years to produce the content. Of course, I wouldn't know for I don't mod for this game.

Wait a second, you say "I wouldn't know" but still make claims about that? I don't quite get whether you are being sarcastic here, or just contradicting.

[chortles 263]

I can't help but believe that to least one decision-maker at BI, dealing with someone from the community would "have" to mean hiring or contracting.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

It's not a bad idea on the face of it, but the logistics behind it would be an issue, especially for a game with what seems a tight timeline.

- Match the quality of the work

- Meet the deadlines

- Deal with IP rights

- Examine content to avoid being a target of a lawsuit

- Sort out additional paperwork like contracts, NDA's, whatnot.

Would you, for example be willing to spend 9 hours a day modelling with a deadline breathing down your neck to produce the BI/RHS/whoever quality work while making everything yourself then signing it off to BI so they can sell that in their product for the grand compensation of maybe 50 dollars for all your hard work?

Modding is great, it's a hobby and it's done because you make what you want to at the pace you want to with the results you want to and sharing it however you want to and providing further support for it if you want to. That's why we have the great community in which things are released when they're ready and if you don't like someones work, the phrase I believe is "do it better yourself".

Edited June 19, 2013 by Sniperwolf572

[ProfTournesol 956]

Would you, for example be willing to spend 9 hours a day modelling with a deadline breathing down your neck to produce the BI/RHS/whoever quality work while making everything yourself then signing it off to BI so they can sell that in their product for the grand compensation of maybe 50 dollars for all your hard work?

Why not ? Addon makers aren't looking for profit sofar (apart from some exceptions), and are already spending a lot of time for free modding.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Why not ? Addon makers aren't looking for profit sofar (apart from some exceptions), and are already spending a lot of time for free modding.

Yes they are, but read the bit right below that. Hobby modding vs doing models for a studio which is going to sell the game is not exactly the same. I'll edit the post and bold the important bits.

[chortles 263]

There's the boundary of "when is it fun, and when is it a job"...

But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if "- Match the quality of the work, - Meet the deadlines, - Deal with IP rights, - Examine content to avoid being a target of a lawsuit, - Sort out additional paperwork like contracts, NDA's, whatnot." is what a decision-maker at BI thinks that 'dealing with the community' would have to involve, even if contracting and not outright hiring.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Wasn't ACR DLC kind of community work ?

[Droikka 1]

Why not ? Addon makers aren't looking for profit sofar (apart from some exceptions), and are already spending a lot of time for free modding.

Those modders do not directly profit from their work.

Knowing that your content will be profited directly from is a much different feeling.

When you know that the content you produce is capable of making money, you'll most likely stop producing it for free.

At least, that's from my perspective as a professional concept artist.

[ric 1]

Those modders do not directly profit from their work.

Knowing that your content will be profited directly from is a much different feeling.

When you know that the content you produce is capable of making money, you'll most likely stop producing it for free.

At least, that's from my perspective as a professional concept artist.

is this not how iron front came to be? did it not start off as a free mod for A2 like invasion 44?

[Tonci87 163]

Wasn't ACR DLC kind of community work ?

AFAIk the Dingo was the same as the one in the BW Mod.

I think it might be good idea to "outsource" some stuff to the community. A nice little modeling contest that runs for a month or two might be a good idea.

[gossamersolid 155]

Wasn't ACR DLC kind of community work ?

Sorta, but look what happened with that. The content didn't follow all of the BIS standards (both sides' fault, BIS - for not ensuring/communicating standards, ACR devs - for not following standards). Also we still haven't seen one patch or fix for it, which is unfortunate as there are a lot of issues that need to be fixed.

[GranolaBar 10]

Nice update with beta status. I just downloading it. At this time, very few servers with it.

[dm 9]

Okay this might sound like totally over the top, but have you considered accepting community submissions for that? Make a competition: "Model the interior of XXX and receive a supporter edition" or something of that nature. And yeah, I am serious about it.

I would absolutely love for you to show me a single community addon vehicle which meets the quality (or exceeds its) AND meets the artwork standards laid out by BI for Arma 3. (Not sure how, since they are only known internally).

Not only this, but as Droikka says, it is a UNIVERSE of pain as far as IP rights are concerned.

And yeah, I am serious about it.

As DnA said, they would love to do it, but even the overhead on outsourcing is too much work for them to undertake at the moment.

So: its not going to happen, and no amount of whining or suggesting alternatives on here is going to change that...

Edited June 19, 2013 by DM

[clifdenhill 1]

To put you more in perspective, there are going to be two wheeled APCs for Arma 3 Beta. Making interiors for drivers and gunners would mean there would be only one of them because of time constraints. Speaking just for myself, I would prefer to have at least some armoured vehicle for both Blue and Red rather to stand on the side without any such stuff against better equipped enemy with interiors I would never see :icon_twisted:

In the case I wouldn't mind missing out on the interiors. You guys know what you're able to finish our not.

[Smurf 12]

Simple addons for years asked features won't make into the game and you are asking for full models?

lol

[purepassion 22]

Nice update with beta status. I just downloading it. At this time, very few servers with it.

Just so nobody gets confused, there is no update which includes beta content yet.

[Mr. Charles 22]

I'm only speaking for myself, but the point I tried to make was that the interiors don't need to be as detailed as in RO2 or in that BF3 scene. We have interiors for every single damn vehicle but not for tanks.

I'm even ok with randomised interiors. Heck, if you go and say you're gonna go a little bit into the future, why not say that the Merkava etc. got new and improved interiors, which don't look like todays Merkavas? One wouldn't have to research and instead could go and recycle some parts from the Pandur (ACR DLC), Bradley, AAV and so on.

And don't come around and tell me that the rivet-counters will have a field day.

I'm just so disappointed that BIS showed some complete and done (for me, as an amateur) tanks way back in mid 2011 and they still don't have a working interior. It's been two years since then and that's a pretty damn long time in game development.

[GranolaBar 10]

Just so nobody gets confused, there is no update which includes beta content yet.

Indeed, this is true :), but reading the last 3 pages of Troll that does not affect the original discussion, a troll in addition will not kill anyone.

Soon everyone on the beta and the "true" this time:)

[blu3sman 11]

On the topic of outsourcing/community content:

http://i.imgur.com/DNuRLOc.jpg

[bad benson 1733]

I'm just so disappointed that BIS showed some complete and done (for me, as an amateur) tanks way back in mid 2011 and they still don't have a working interior. It's been two years since then and that's a pretty damn long time in game development.

i totally agree. they more and more talk about new features (some of them even old) as if they aren't a crucial part of bringing the game forward and actually improving it compared to the older versions. i mean i'm really the biggest fan of the new physics and the lighting and all that but what about the details and actual gameplay. i hate to bring it up again but the way the medical system has been discussed by the devs is really worrying. i mean it's a fundamental part of the game that defines the whole experience. one would think that stuff like that would be higher up on the priority list.

i mean i get that the new engine features ate up a lot of resources but if the price for that is less actual features, than i couldn't care less about the improved engine. i can only hope that the mission content will bring some new stuff. maybe they will make more modules and stuff like that this time around. otherwise this is just an improved platform rather than a new game.

again i don't want to sound ungrateful for the better overall rendering (especially as a modder) but please don't forget the details and the gameplay. that's what gives the game its soul.

and if we finally get a full toolset to create all kinds of content (animation plugins, better terrain tools at least) in a way that doesn't require you to be a masochist, then i couldn't care less about all i just said. but a more shiny looking simplified arma just isn't enough. not for me at least.