Audio Tweaking (dev branch)

[St. Jimmy 272]

Hmm I played yesterday some MP and sonic cracks sounded OK. Were they changed in the last days or are there just situations where they sound OK and where they sound weird/bad?

[brightcandle 114]

Serious question: Why not? I don't know that much about sound editing, but are there not mathmatical principles behind the way sound behaves that can be utilized to make something sound not only good but also (more or less) correct for its environment?

Also, yeah it kinda just sounds like you don't like the sounds rather than the actual sound system, which is a much more subjective criticism.

Absolutly, if you fully ray trace the sound to every possible point and recreate the environment perfectly with a very detailed multiple bounce ray tracing sound engine its possible. I just don't know if that even remotely exists. Running it through a filter is not the same as modelling a real world environment and playing a sound in it and then capturing the result. Its more likely they added a bit of reverb and and other such basic tweaks to try and simulate the effect of that modelled world, which they obviously didn't do. The proof of how it was done is in the actual sound itself.

[CaptainObvious 95]

To me, the new cracks sound more like a bullet hitting dirt than a sonic boom

[Trojanhawrs 10]

I don't think It's the quality of the sound samples that are the problem. It's positional audio and audio levels thats completely out of whack.

At the moment there is absolutely no sense of a 3d audio space in this game. I have now idea where sounds are coming form or how close or far they are.

-Sonic cracks sounds like gunshots and the sound seems to arrive from where the bullets impact hit, more than something passing by close to your head. I'm constantly checking my flank in confusion.

-It sounds like the enemy gunfire is close, when they really are far away. You don't get any sense of distance to the shooters.

-The volume levels of different sounds have no consistency.

explosions, helicopters, vehicle engines, footsteps etc, none of them seem to balanced against each other.

I don't care if they use noisy sound samples from old compact cassette tapes, as long as there is some sort of volume balance and directional audio.

Exactly. Whether you like the new sounds or not is vastly irrelevant in comparison.

BIS should be ashamed of themselves, the update completely detracts from the realism that the game was built to achieve. I've spent a stupid amount of time on this game and its infuriating that I am now unable to tell if the sniper shooting at me is 100 or 700 metres away - its an absolute joke.

I would go on if I thought it might influence BIS to roll back the changes but implementing new bugs onto an already problematic (im being kind) game seems to be their modus operandi.

[roshnak 41]

The proof of how it was done is in the actual sound itself.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about Arma 3, here. I know roughly how the sound system in Arma 3 works. The environment effects are created by adding "tail" sounds to the end of "shot" sounds, which are then attenuated over distance in the engine. I also wasn't talking about a ray tracing sound engine. What I mean is, aren't reverb and echoes and the like real things and we know how they work, thus allowing us to create that stuff in real time? Shouldn't it be possible to do this in such a way that sounds at least as convincing as someone mixing or recording custom sounds?

I mean, I could be completely wrong on this. Maybe there's no way to realistically recreate all of the intricacies of a sound interacting with it's environment in real time. But it seems to me that engineered sounds aren't realistically going to be doing that any better, and are just going to be approximations as well.

I would go on if I thought it might influence BIS to roll back the changes but implementing new bugs onto an already problematic (im being kind) game seems to be their modus operandi.

Why would they roll back the changes instead of just continuing to adjust the new system like they have been doing for weeks on the dev branch?

Edited April 10, 2015 by roshnak

[Trojanhawrs 10]

Why would they roll back the changes instead of just continuing to adjust the new system like they have been doing for weeks on the dev branch?

Maybe because theyve completely ruined a massive component of the in-game combat and actually value their player community enough to allow them to play a game with a useable audio while they iron out the faults.

[sniper pilot 36]

I don't think It's the quality of the sound samples that are the problem. It's positional audio and audio levels thats completely out of whack.

At the moment there is absolutely no sense of a 3d audio space in this game. I have now idea where sounds are coming form or how close or far they are.

-Sonic cracks sounds like gunshots and the sound seems to arrive from where the bullets impact hit, more than something passing by close to your head. I'm constantly checking my flank in confusion.

-It sounds like the enemy gunfire is close, when they really are far away. You don't get any sense of distance to the shooters.

-The volume levels of different sounds have no consistency.

explosions, helicopters, vehicle engines, footsteps etc, none of them seem to balanced against each other.

I don't care if they use noisy sound samples from old compact cassette tapes, as long as there is some sort of volume balance and directional audio.

If this is true(I can't test it atm) then this is truly a sad day. Sounds that aren't affected by distance as well as sounds that are not directionally regulated is a real deal breaker one that even OFP iirc did well so I'm a bit confused. But like I said I can't test it for my self I really hope this isn't the case.

[Bleemus 10]

Wait - I'm pretty sure HL2's way of doing it is the "old way" and doing this stuff in-engine is the way it's going to be done in the future (and also right now, apparently).

It would be pretty great if Arma 3 had proper 3D/spatialized sound.

I think you guys have some audio settings messed up because I can always tell where things are via sound. Are you sure you don't have sound set as 7.1 in system sound settings and are using stereo headphones? This will really mess up your ability to perceive direction. Try Razer Surround app.

For me the audio directionality of Arma is world class.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Trojanhawrs 10]

I think you guys have some audio settings messed up because I can always tell where things are via sound. Are you sure you don't have sound set as 7.1 in system sound settings and are using stereo headphones? This will really mess up your ability to perceive direction. Try Razer Surround app.

For me the audio directionality of Arma is world class.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Have you played it since the update? Direction is not the issue as such its the range

[KeyCat 131]

To me, the new cracks sound more like a bullet hitting dirt than a sonic boom

Tested some MP last night on stable and thats exactly how it sounded to me to. I was running behind a slope with a firefight on the flat above and it sounded like bullets was hitting the ground all around me, first I was spooked and belived I was under fire from behind but I wasn't.

/KC

[GepardenK 0]

Have you played it since the update? Direction is not the issue as such its the range

This. I love the new sound system but the range is way off. Just open the game and witness the arial view of soldiers figtning around Kamino in the main menu. The units are far away but the shots sounds like they are danger close.

Other than this "bug" I think the changes are great. Much better than before

[garensterz 10]

Anyone experiencing problems on the new sound effects that BI implemented? Sometimes distant gun shots can't be heard (just about 70 - 100 meters) . And the sound when you're being hit by a bullet is completely gone now. Am I the only one having this problems?

[Trojanhawrs 10]

This. I love the new sound system but the range is way off. Just open the game and witness the arial view of soldiers figtning around Kamino in the main menu. The units are far away but the shots sounds like they are danger close.

Other than this "bug" I think the changes are great. Much better than before

I dont have any major gripes as yet with the changes, other than that. Im still undecided, the trg and mk20 definitely sound better but the katiba for me is too loud in comparison with the other ambient effects.

Even still, its always 1 step forward and 3 steps back with BIS.

[I give up 152]

The sound range is completely messed up. When the enemy is firing at 700 meters distance sounds like they are firing at 1 meter.

But it was already like this before 1.42.

Directional sound in Arma is one of the best.

[Trojanhawrs 10]

The sound range is completely messed up. When the enemy is firing at 700 meters distance sounds like they are firing at 1 meter.

But it was already like this before 1.42.

Directional sound in Arma is one of the best.

No, it absolutely wasnt. Not even nearly as bad

[GepardenK 0]

I dont have any major gripes as yet with the changes, other than that. Im still undecided, the trg and mk20 definitely sound better but the katiba for me is too loud in comparison with the other ambient effects.

Even still, its always 1 step forward and 3 steps back with BIS.

I would agree. Relative sound volume is a major problem in Arma atm. This extends beyond the firing sounds. Reloading for example is to low, the values might be "realistic" for all I know but in terms of giving the player proper feedback and immersion it does not work at all. Same goes for fatigued breathing - it feels very low relative to other sounds, slowing down and aiming poorly feels annyoing without proper audible context

With BIS I think it's 1 step forward and 5 steps in random directions. But that's sandbox design for you, overall they do a great job

[Trojanhawrs 10]

I would agree. Relative sound volume is a major problem in Arma atm. This extends beyond the firing sounds. Reloading for example is to low, the values might be "realistic" for all I know but in terms of giving the player proper feedback and immersion it does not work at all. Same goes for fatigued breathing - it feels very low relative to other sounds, slowing down and aiming poorly feels annyoing without proper audible context

With BIS I think it's 1 step forward and 5 steps in random directions. But that's sandbox design for you, overall they do a great job

They definitely "fixed" the reloading from the factory game, I remember it used to be ridiculously loud and omnidirectional (not to you but to other players). Breathing has always been dodgy thats for sure.

Of course they do a great job, I wouldnt be so angry if I wasnt so heavily invested in the game but they have a track record of putting out seemingly untested updates. 5 minutes on a server after that update and I knew something was seriously awry.

[CaptainObvious 95]

Tested some MP last night on stable and thats exactly how it sounded to me to. I was running behind a slope with a firefight on the flat above and it sounded like bullets was hitting the ground all around me, first I was spooked and belived I was under fire from behind but I wasn't.

/KC

Yea, had a similar situation earlier, scary as tits trying to figure out who's shooting at me, only to realize it's some stray bullets flying over me

[Brisse 78]

Reloading for example is to low, the values might be "realistic" for all I know but in terms of giving the player proper feedback and immersion it does not work at all.

No, they are not realistic. If they were realistic, they would be far lower in volume. It's called having a large dynamic range, and audiophiles love it. More casual users might hate it.

[roshnak 41]

It doesn't sound anything like a bullet impacting a surface to me. It sounds like a loud snap or crack, similar to a whip crack. It sounds fine to me.

[roshnak 41]

Maybe because theyve completely ruined a massive component of the in-game combat and actually value their player community enough to allow them to play a game with a useable audio while they iron out the faults.

Rolling back the changes is not the solution. Continuing to refine the distance attenuation effect is.

I think you guys have some audio settings messed up because I can always tell where things are via sound. Are you sure you don't have sound set as 7.1 in system sound settings and are using stereo headphones? This will really mess up your ability to perceive direction. Try Razer Surround app.

For me the audio directionality of Arma is world class.

I was referring to proper spatialized sound utilizing HRTFs. Arma 3 (and almost every other game) does not have this. Razer Surround is similar in that it is a virtual spatialization from a 7.1 source, but it's limited to 7 sound sources on a horizontal plane and interpolation between them. Real 3D sound can place a sound at any point in space around you, including above and below, using regular stereo headphones.

Of course they do a great job, I wouldnt be so angry if I wasnt so heavily invested in the game but they have a track record of putting out seemingly untested updates. 5 minutes on a server after that update and I knew something was seriously awry.

Out of curiosity, did you check out the dev branch at all while these features were being implemented? These features have been tested by the community for over a month and have been receiving relatively positive feedback. The distance attenuation in particular is still in the process of being tweaked based on feedback. Before the Marksman DLC was released gun sounds were good, but not travelling as far as they should have been. It seems like the change that made it into 1.42 adjusted this so that guns were audible over longer distances, but also appears to have messed up the attenuation a little bit.

What were they supposed to do, not release the Marksman DLC because some of the sounds weren't quite dialed in yet? It's not like there aren't going to be patches to refine it.

Edit: Just in case anyone misinterprets this, I'm not saying that the community is responsible for testing anything, and I'm not saying that people need to test things on the dev branch in order for their opinions to matter or anything. I'm saying that these features have been in development for a while and are overall trending in the right direction. As someone who has seen this feature evolve through the dev branch, it seems like an overreaction to be calling for changes to be rolled back because some settings aren't quite right at the moment.

Edited April 10, 2015 by roshnak

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

It does sound fine, the sonic cracks, compared to the ones Mega had showed us, they're not perfect but it's close. Not sure if BIS is aiming to get exactly how it sounds, but it sounds far better than when Arma 3 hit release. Especially in urban area's, it almost seems the sonic cracks have tails. I wish they were more distinctive though.

Another thing to mention are bullet impacts. On ground they sound dim, and plain, not really like leading hitting the ground super fast. Impacts, and tails definitely need more love.

[Trojanhawrs 10]

Out of curiosity, did you check out the dev branch at all while these features were being implemented? These features have been tested by the community for over a month and have been receiving relatively positive feedback. The distance attenuation in particular is still in the process of being tweaked based on feedback. Before the Marksman DLC was released gun sounds were good, but not travelling as far as they should have been. It seems like the change that made it into 1.42 adjusted this so that guns were audible over longer distances, but also appears to have messed up the attenuation a little bit.

What were they supposed to do, not release the Marksman DLC because some of the sounds weren't quite dialed in yet? It's not like there aren't going to be patches to refine it.

Edit: Just in case anyone misinterprets this, I'm not saying that the community is responsible for testing anything, and I'm not saying that people need to test things on the dev branch in order for their opinions to matter or anything. I'm saying that these features have been in development for a while and are overall trending in the right direction. As someone who has seen this feature evolve through the dev branch, it seems like an overreaction to be calling for changes to be rolled back because some settings aren't quite right at the moment.

Nope, I'm glad you added the edit because I was just about to go off on a rant to that effect. Obviously, many (probably the majority of) players dont follow how updates are developing, but that doesnt make us any less important. And I dont mean roll back the whole update, just the sound - surely that cant be too difficult.

I'm trying my best not to come across as melodramatic but it really has killed the game for me - I dont know how many are feeling as strongly about this as myself but until its sorted I cant see me playing for extended periods as I have been.

[GepardenK 0]

They definitely "fixed" the reloading from the factory game, I remember it used to be ridiculously loud and omnidirectional (not to you but to other players). Breathing has always been dodgy thats for sure.

Yes I remember the "bat ears" from back then when it came to reloading (and, I think, healing). I'm glad they fixed that, I was talking about personal sounds and it's role in feedback to the player. Particularly in 3rd person where personal sounds still are very low because of the character's relative distance to the camera. Lack of proper sound feedback when taking actions kinda breaks the gameplay flow

No, they are not realistic. If they were realistic, they would be far lower in volume. It's called having a large dynamic range, and audiophiles love it. More casual users might hate it.

Agreed, but sounds in a game is about more than just quality of soundscape. Some sounds are a integral part of the gameplay and not just immersive fluff. When it comes to "reloading" and "breathing" sounds they need to be emphasised to give proper feedback back to the player. Sounds like these should be "overwhelming" in the sense that their job is not only to play a proper sound, but also to make me as a player feel that I am actually doing the reloading action or being very very exhausted (sound, togheter with animation, must replace the lack of actual physical contact I have with the game)

For a good example of really good sound design, see Thief: The Dark Project (from 1998). That game does so much right when it comes to sound. One example is the hilariously loud footsteps. Garret is supposed to be a master thief but his steps are so loud that, In real life, every guard in the entire building would know he was there after his first few steps. But In the game it works perfectly and makes you as a player feel connected with the environment in a way that, for some reason, has not been topped since. You know that feeling when you are trying to walk silently over a wodden floor at night but every step you take makes massive wodden shrieks that makes your hearth jump in fear of waking up somebody? Thief replicaded that feeling so so well

[2nd ranger 282]

The sound range is completely messed up. When the enemy is firing at 700 meters distance sounds like they are firing at 1 meter.

Yeah they messed up the actual filtering distance in favour of extending the audible range of the shots. I'm sure it will be fixed, but I wonder how close the filter can come to how distant gunfire really sounds. Currently and in the previous iterations, it sounded pretty much like hearing gunfire over a phone. Another thing that bugs me is the lack of reverb from every gun but your own. It's pretty jarring because if you're observing a fight from a medium to long distance, all you can hear is a series of clipped tapping noises that abruptly cut off with no hint of echo. It actually sounds like the gunfight is underwater.

Distant helicopters sound pretty decent though.