Balancing?

[jgaz-uk 132]

BIS have never been damned for the way they "keep it real" have they!

Variety is the spice of life and there has always been plenty of that up to now in the ArmA series. Imbalance in opposing weapons requires diversity of tactics, like a game of chess. Its a major part of what has kept people interested in Bohemia products (people are still playing OFP online after all these years). Give all the pieces the same capability in a game of Chess and it becomes Draughts.

Came away after watching the Beta streaming a little disillusioned, the Comanche is old hat (rejected by the US armed forces a while back) And I still say full screen zoom with circle overlay is not a 3D scope.

As I've said before BIS keep the faith

It is I believe what your very loyal fans (the ones who spend their money on all your output) would want yes?

Edited June 10, 2013 by jgaz-uk

[Mirudes 1]

That Gepard anti-materiel rifle is *actually existing* equipment!

From my experience with the beta-patches for ArmA2 I can say that nearly every patch will influence the artificial intelligence in any way.

So how do you come to the conclusion that it's a good idea to balance a game that has a unknown level of AI with the changes to real existing machinery, equipment and devices?

All you have to do is takeover the values for firerate, velocity and weight from the Wikipedia.

When that is finished, one can even think about balancing.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Mirudes

[OrLoK 20]

Hello there

The topic seems to be swerving about a little. I think many players do come to Arma for realism "out of the box", but it's great that it can be enhanced via mods.

The AI is in a rough state at the moment, I find it very hard to believe that the AI as is will feature in the release. As I've said before tweaking is perhaps the operative word that should have been used rather than balancing. I think it's good to bring up ones concerns but I feel this is turning into a bit of a bash/complain-o-fest aimed at the devs.

Just MHO.

Rgds

Lok

[Wolfstriked 11]

Just don't dumb it down too much.Right now in MP you get kills and get killed yourself.The AI keeps you on your toes at all times and most of my deaths are when I stop trying to survive and start playing a game.If I run past an enemy at close range I want to be dead plain and simple.If I get a kill and see bullet impacts all around me and I keep firing I want to be dead.If enemy is firing on my position and I peek out to look I want a chance to be dead.With AI the way it is right now I find myself actually getting suppressed because I know they are firing accurately on my position and a slight peek out can be a death sentence.

[Masharra 10]

Just don't dumb it down too much.Right now in MP you get kills and get killed yourself.The AI keeps you on your toes at all times and most of my deaths are when I stop trying to survive and start playing a game.If I run past an enemy at close range I want to be dead plain and simple.Not I. As a designer of a bad visibility map, I was quite happy to hear the ai yell "all go prone" "Unknown man front close" wait a bit then as I turn my weapon to face them get capped in the faceIf I get a kill and see bullet impacts all around me and I keep firing I want to be dead.If enemy is firing on my position and I peek out to look I want a chance to be dead.It has always been that way?With AI the way it is right now I find myself actually getting suppressed because I know they are firing accurately on my position and a slight peek out can be a death sentence.Are they actually suppressing you or are they waiting till you poke your head out to so they can blow it off? two different things

Yes but is the cause of your death, because you screwed up? OR They simply know about your position (cheatwise)? A2 ai can keep you on your toes when used with the proper mods without the need for them to cheat. Note no one is asking for dumbing down, just "realistic" gameplay. As it stands the ai doesnt behave like humans they behave like ai gaming. The ai doesnt behave like a military unit and and overcome you tactically, they simply ignore most of your shots and shoot accurately.

Note you were very vague. Right now in MP? Which mp mode? Organized coop ala Zeus? Public coop wasteland's ai aka Domi and dayz have a baby. or Domi aka annex and whatever aka lol ai.

Its sort of like saying that the ak insurgent who shoots pilots out of Apaches/hinds/mi8 keeps you on your toes. No it doesnt. Its just artificial bull that a mission maker strives to overcome with proper balancing of forces.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Masharra

[Wolfstriked 11]

Domi is what I play with occasional PVP.For realistic tactics to occur the AI need a huge change plain and simple and I doubt it will happen.And also I feel that running away from AI and then sneaking up on them to get the kill is basically the reverse of them knowing your general location and following you even though you are hidden and there is no way possible they could of followed you.So I change my gameplay to adapt to the point and click of current AI.

And again do not make them so they rarely hit you as that is just boring as hell and is not good for the game.Easy deaths=immersion IMO.

[Masharra 10]

The ai currently uses quite realistic strats in arma 2 so Im not sure about huge change as much as taking the time to change them. Disengaging from combat and engaging from a more advantageous position is a well used tactic. Feints to draw enemy charges followed by smoke cover to conceal flanking movements.

I must say most engagements arent about dead accuracy but fire supremacy followed by superior movement to kill the targets. This "game" everyone kills way too easily

[-Coulum- 35]

The ai currently uses quite realistic strats in arma 2 so Im not sure about huge change as much as taking the time to change them. Disengaging from combat and engaging from a more advantageous position is a well used tactic. Feints to draw enemy charges followed by smoke cover to conceal flanking movements.

I must say most engagements arent about dead accuracy but fire supremacy followed by superior movement to kill the targets. This "game" everyone kills way too easily

Pretty much.The ai aren't stupid when it comes to squad level decision like route of approach, flanking, retreating etc. But often it never has time to do that because they are dead or the players are dead already. Players die quick because ai have very good default aiming skills and extremely good detection abilities. The Ai die so fast because they can't think well on an individual level and thus are very poor at taking cover and generally staying alive. The overall result is screw maneuvering and fire superiority and make sure every shot is a head shot - hopefully you kill them all before they kill you.

[Masharra 10]

I just had a strange thought. The players are probably the most unrealistic thing about arma. See having been shot at before puts a certain fear in you. I emulate that fear a lot in my gaming sessions. Just today we (CiAhome.net) were playing a mission and we were getting slaughtered. From what I gathered the AI had initiated contact from the east. Fell back when they were fired on by our bmp. Flanked around to the south, disabled said bmp. We reacted by splitting the squad to move to flank the enemy to the south. Unfortunately the ai didnt send everyone to the south so the flanking team fell into a L shaped ambush against aggressors who had a superior fighting position. (NOT GOOD) BMP got repaired and took our ei to the south unfortunately in the time that took enemy reinforcements arrived from the North. We watched them in vain reinforce the east and then watched the east send more to the south. They essentially formed a V-shaped ambush on us and rained hell down on us.

that was about 8-10 humans vs 15-25 ai. Tactical oversight aside, it wasnt accurate fire that killed most of us. It was use of grenades, suppressive fire that managed to hit us, superior movement and wiped us out. We never gained fire superiority, we were looking for accurate kill shots, and we were punished for it. Next time though, we will get those stinking napa bastards. Teach them not to mess with the RHS Armed Forces of the Russian Federation of Win and Green Eyed women.

[Mirudes 1]

It was been said in the discussion about the artificial intelligence that the developers working with customized values for the equipment. In example a slower firerate for the Gepárd GM-6 Lynx rifle. They think that should help to achieve a better balance between the fractions / and players versus AI.

In every thread about the AI is the suggestion given, to use mods to solve the problems with the AI.

Let's say the players are doing this and getting a proper AI. What now?

- Will the (now functioning) AI have conflicts/incompatibilities with the customized values of the equipment?

- The players will still have the unrealistic values for the equipment. What's next? Using ANOTHER mod only for to bring the realistic values back to ArmA3?

Besides that, I don't understand it why BIS isn't even creating a science-fiction rifle with the values they need - nobody would care about that and nobody could discuss a firerate of a non existing heavy sniper rifle out of the year 2035.

[instagoat 133]

The problem with AI mods is that they more often than not screw up any mission that is not designed with them in mind.

I´d rather not have to use any of those. I avoided AI mods for the longest time with Arma 2, and I only started to use them to try and fix up some obvious shortcomings (ie, the AI not rearming themselves or picking up AT launchers from bodies if Armour shows up, etc).

[progamer 14]

It was been said in the discussion about the artificial intelligence that the developers working with customized values for the equipment. In example a slower firerate for the Gepárd GM-6 Lynx rifle. They think that should help to achieve a better balance between the fractions / and players versus AI.

In every thread about the AI is the suggestion given, to use mods to solve the problems with the AI.

Let's say the players are doing this and getting a proper AI. What now?

- Will the (now functioning) AI have conflicts/incompatibilities with the customized values of the equipment?

- The players will still have the unrealistic values for the equipment. What's next? Using ANOTHER mod only for to bring the realistic values back to ArmA3?

Besides that, I don't understand it why BIS isn't even creating a science-fiction rifle with the values they need - nobody would care about that and nobody could discuss a firerate of a non existing heavy sniper rifle out of the year 2035.

The reason why they do not make some sci-fi rifle is because in real life, guns will be more advanced in 2035 but will not shoot lasers. They will be guns that already exist and possibly prototype weapons from 2015 to 2000. This a simulation of war.

Changing values for AI on the other hand makes sense because the only way to give the AI equipment equal to the player would be to make the AI think for itself, have emotions, life experiences, practice and training which is not an easy accomplishment.

[Masharra 10]

The ai can already think for itself, doesnt need training nor life experiences, already has courage values. Changing the fire rate / whatever merely band-aids the supposed problem.

[chrisb 196]

This was taken from a general test of the ai.

I often do random tests if new or updated mod/addons are used.

This is part of a team caught under fire and using the ruin here for cover. They are fighting a lot of enemy forces based in the town just down the hill. The enemy is flanking from both sides, but really here we are concentrating on the side I can see best. I am just a team member not a leader.

It’s the conserving of ammo, using cover, correct stances etc, that really helps ai become believable. This is a very configurable ai.

Do we need mod/addons for ai, well yes, because BIS will never give us ai this good.

Parts from mods here:

GL3/4, SLX, Zeus, TPW_suppress. Only selected parts (pbo’s) from each were used, tested together many times. They will holdup in buildings the same way, firing from doors & windows..

This is why modded is so good it gives the player a choice, use it or don’t, make it the way you want it, its all possible..

I overlaid some info.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-jfnAwHses

There would be around 70ai at start, matched here in favour of the enemy, probably 30/40 not sure, was done a little time back. Sorry its only 720, was recorded in 60% or 75% msi, again not sure.

EDIT: Original video:

Video above, now upgraded to 1080, only took at 75% quality though, but its better than the original...

Edited June 13, 2013 by ChrisB
Video upgrade

[dmarkwick 261]

It was been said in the discussion about the artificial intelligence that the developers working with customized values for the equipment. In example a slower firerate for the Gepárd GM-6 Lynx rifle. They think that should help to achieve a better balance between the fractions / and players versus AI.

In every thread about the AI is the suggestion given, to use mods to solve the problems with the AI.

Let's say the players are doing this and getting a proper AI. What now?

- Will the (now functioning) AI have conflicts/incompatibilities with the customized values of the equipment?

- The players will still have the unrealistic values for the equipment. What's next? Using ANOTHER mod only for to bring the realistic values back to ArmA3?

Besides that, I don't understand it why BIS isn't even creating a science-fiction rifle with the values they need - nobody would care about that and nobody could discuss a firerate of a non existing heavy sniper rifle out of the year 2035.

Well, although I am generally not in favour of balancing existing equipments for AI (my posts explain why it's done, not that I agree) I can see why it's done. The things need to work with the AI in missions in vanilla ArmA. As soon as you decide to change something, you cannot complain that it then bends something else out of shape. Yes, if you bend something , you might have to bend something else to compensate :) that's always been the nature of it though.

On the whole though, unless they break missions, these things are hardly ever seen. So when you see this sort of balancing going on, you just have to remember that it's the game as delivered is the product that has to work right, with the game missions in mind.

[metalcraze 290]

The rate of fire settings for AI and weapon itself are separate in the same config.

So I'm not buying this one.

This whole "we balance the game for AI" while AI has zero improvements vs. ArmA2 AI doesn't sound too convincing.

I mean if they will fix the terrible AI reflexes that prevent AI from facing its target in any reasonable amount of time - won't that break the campaign balance a lot more than changing rate of fire of a weapon for the player (since AI has its own value) - if campaign is balanced with the current AI in mind?

Or if they will fix AI precision and prevent AI from 1 shotting you even at lowest settings? Won't that break the balance since campaign is made with 1 shot kill AI in mind?

And why didn't AI need mirrored sniper rifles before? In OA AI was shooting with taki militia's no-scope rifle just as well as it was with NV+scope M110 within both of those rifles' limits

Edited June 13, 2013 by metalcraze

[Anachoretes 10]

People get few rifles and start talk about balance. Better talk about additions. Changing stage somewhere ahead.

[Curry 10]

ArmA 3 has already gone maintstream, already hired a developer for "balancing". But it doesn't matter for me at all, because a real realism mod (ACE) will fix all this BS making this discussion pointless.

I already hated the "futuristic" setting of ARMA 3 but I bought A3 because of the awesome modding community making this game what it should be. An infrantry simulator. BI just gives the platform for this.

[Maio 293]

ArmA 3 has already gone maintstream, already hired a developer for "balancing". But it doesn't matter for me at all, because a real realism mod (ACE) will fix all this BS making this discussion pointless.

I already hated the "futuristic" setting of ARMA 3 but I bought A3 because of the awesome modding community making this game what it should be. An infrantry simulator. BI just gives the platform for this.

Sorry but how does the "futuristic" setting make Arma 3 less of an infantry focused game?

Oh and on balancing:

[Curry 10]

Sorry but how does the "futuristic" setting make Arma 3 less of an infantry focused game?

I don't like the futuristic setting and that has nothing to do with making this game less infantry based or realistic. It was purely a statement from me not liking the 2023 or whatever timeframe it symbolizes. A Cold War Era setting in my opinion would have been great to bring the game back where it shined but maybe it just doesn't fit all those "mall ninja wannabe Marine Seals Navy Spec Ops Airsoft playing zit faced kids" anymore.

But awesome mods will come and then all that doesn't matter anymore. For me at least. I'm glad A3 comes.

[dmarkwick 261]

I don't like the futuristic setting and that has nothing to do with making this game less infantry based or realistic. It was purely a statement from me not liking the 2023 or whatever timeframe it symbolizes. A Cold War Era setting in my opinion would have been great to bring the game back where it shined but maybe it just doesn't fit all those "mall ninja wannabe Marine Seals Navy Spec Ops Airsoft playing zit faced kids" anymore.

But awesome mods will come and then all that doesn't matter anymore. For me at least. I'm glad A3 comes.

Oof :)

Sounds like you want them to make a game they already made?

[Anachoretes 10]

Arma is already made. But ARMA 3 contains so much in-engine improvements cannont be create by any modders. Many of modders like past-wars, but future - no one. So its good point to make this setting in vanilla.

[Curry 10]

Arma is already made. But ARMA 3 contains so much in-engine improvements cannont be create by any modders. Many of modders like past-wars, but future - no one. So its good point to make this setting in vanilla.

Absolutely. And that's why I can't wait to see decent mods for A3. The engine improvements make it so much more enjoyable to play and it even runs on my PC. ;)

Maybe BI will even scratch off those nasty "always exploding vehicles" when shot with light weapons. :D

Edited June 13, 2013 by Curry

[progamer 14]

ArmA 3 has already gone maintstream, already hired a developer for "balancing". But it doesn't matter for me at all, because a real realism mod (ACE) will fix all this BS making this discussion pointless.

I already hated the "futuristic" setting of ARMA 3 but I bought A3 because of the awesome modding community making this game what it should be. An infrantry simulator. BI just gives the platform for this.

Many devs have said the game is combined arms focused, not infantry focused.

[Anachoretes 10]

Yes. But, they trying to make any part of combined arms nice - thats all. Any player on any side of the war must take good game.