Balancing?

[bad benson 1733]

First wanna say that I "love" being part of the alpha so far and the final product is something I am actually already pondering about how I will feel when that happens.Really enjoy seeing daily change logs and interacting with devs!

As for carbines and the "roles" of soldiers I feel that this needs to be looked at.If you look up medic online you will see that they carry pretty much same rifle as the rifleman units.But in Arma games they get nerfed and carry shorter range weapons and even worse they are equipped with pure CQB sights irregardless of typical engagement distances encountered.In servers that don't have supply boxes to change loadouts I felt combat ineffective and would wait for a rifleman spot to open,though every server I enter has the supply boxes where you can completely change your loadout.So I ask why must these roles be enforced with weapons and hence different effective range values when just having the task of giving medical treatment when needed is enough.Same with repair specialist,sapper etc.To counter these roles becoming too good I think a better method would be to limit the amount of ammo they carry by making the medkit take up most of the space in their backpacks and then fill remainder with first aid kits.When a soldier is shot but not downed their should be negative effects to fighting such as more sway/blur etc but they can only stop bleeding out with their own FAK's and must rely on medic to get them feeling better as the medic uses the medkit to heal/revive.

Explosive specialists should also be more fleshed out.The mine detector takes up as much space as a 9mm mag and should instead be held on back like an AT and equipped when you hear the telltale explosions.Get rid of the red triangles to signal a mine found and instead place real red triangles in ground atop a found mine.This can also take a good amount of the explosive specialists backpack space by loading 20 or so of them.

http://defense-update.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/gizmo.jpg (114 kB)

This all just IMO of course.;)

quoting the whole thing because it's good :P

awesome post!

i really hope the roles will be made more distinct. no offense BI but it looks really half assed at the moment (i do realize/hope it's due to alpha). make more defined gameplay. if it's too vague it won't create any good moments. this may sound silly but medic gameplay is important because it's makes people bond and goes beyond "shoot this, shoot that".

same goes for repair specialists. i remember one time on some server we were standing clueless next to our damaged chopper. then this guy came along saying "i might be able to fix this" in a workmanlike tone. this type of unforced roleplayish stuff really adds to the experience. but it only works, if these roles really work.

so +1000000 for making special equipment take up more room but making it more important and useful at the same time.

also:

FAKs should stop bleeding. that's it. the whole quake medkit thing we have right now is just silly. who needs a medic if every dude you kill has a magical medkit on him.

[metalcraze 290]

pettka or anyone else, can you acknowledge that the omniscient AI that deduces your position via ESP is a bug instead of a feature? Please say it's a bug.

Ghostone acknowledged that omnipresent AI is the issue.

However acknowledging and fixing it are unfortunately two very different things.

[Alwarren 2767]

Ghostone acknowledged that omnipresent AI is the issue.

However acknowledging and fixing it are unfortunately two very different things.

Well at least it's good to hear it isn't considered "balancing" :/

[jgaz-uk 132]

So basically not a 3d scope, just full screen zoom with overlay circle in the middle.

Why bother it just spoils the realism of what is looking to be something really special.

No long range sniper would shoot with both eyes open, they have a spotter to watch for them.

[metalcraze 290]

We had the same problem with the M16, M4 and SCAR in Arma 2. All were essentially the same, also because the bullet used is the same, so not even there you get a difference between them.

That wasn't true. M16 was great at popping heads at long ranges like on Takistan while M4 was better in urban areas due to being shorter. Even being a marksman wielding some M24 I was sneaking M4 into my backpack a few times just when it came to clearing houses. And SCARs gave me a clear impression that they handled differently. Down to the recoil push shaking camera a bit differently from M4 when standing.

With MXM and MX I just don't feel the difference. And in fact MXM is a lot superior choice to MX due to its increased range. Otherwise it's identical to MX and why would you pick a worse weapon?

And to make weapons different BIS doesn't have to balance anything, all they need is just use real life data. After all MX isn't some fictional rifle - it's just a fictional mod of real ACR that shoots 6.5mm.

How hard can it be? Just apply real life data and let players and mission makers sort out the rest.

No need for clunky weapon collision even! Make MXC and TRG20/TRG21 not pointless by adding weapon auto-lowering. The shorter the weapon - the less often it will get auto-lowered. Or it won't get autolowered at all if you'll strafe through a door compared to MX and especially MXM - making MXC and TRG ultimate CQB weapons since even lowering weapon for 0.5 secs would make you vulnerable for those 0.5 secs. When going to town players will have to pick short weapons and outside they will use longer ones.

All weapons will make sense. And nobody will complain. Even CQB respawn TDM players will just have to switch to TRGs and MXC and that will be it. Zero sacrifice.

[Smurf 12]

So basically not a 3d scope, just full screen zoom with overlay circle in the middle.

Why bother it just spoils the realism of what is looking to be something really special.

No long range sniper would shoot with both eyes open, they have a spotter to watch for them.

This is better than what we have now: https://twitter.com/IvanBuchta/status/342286940072181760/photo/1

[lucable 10]

All weapons will make sense. And nobody will complain. Even CQB respawn TDM players will just have to switch to TRGs and MXC and that will be it. Zero sacrifice.

I agree, we just have to wait.

[blu3sman 11]

When going to town players will have to pick short weapons and outside they will use longer ones.

No, they won't use longer ones. Why would they, if we still don't account for effect of barrell lenght on muzzle velocity.

[Wolfstriked 11]

quoting the whole thing because it's good :P

awesome post!

i really hope the roles will be made more distinct. no offense BI but it looks really half assed at the moment (i do realize/hope it's due to alpha). make more defined gameplay. if it's too vague it won't create any good moments. this may sound silly but medic gameplay is important because it's makes people bond and goes beyond "shoot this, shoot that".

same goes for repair specialists. i remember one time on some server we were standing clueless next to our damaged chopper. then this guy came along saying "i might be able to fix this" in a workmanlike tone. this type of unforced roleplayish stuff really adds to the experience. but it only works, if these roles really work.

so +1000000 for making special equipment take up more room but making it more important and useful at the same time.

also:

FAKs should stop bleeding. that's it. the whole quake medkit thing we have right now is just silly. who needs a medic if every dude you kill has a magical medkit on him.

I agree. :)

This is better than what we have now: https://twitter.com/IvanBuchta/status/342286940072181760/photo/1

I agree its way better as you will see the weapons 3D model in the scope,the reflections on the scope itself and the front post moving around and that all adds to much better experience.Now I would love to see the outside blurred but I dont think they can do that effectively since the scope moves around the screen and so a simple overlay blurred mask would not work.

No, they won't use longer ones. Why would they, if we still don't account for effect of barrell lenght on muzzle velocity.

Rifles have better accuracy than the carbines in Arma3.I choose them over carbines all the time.Carbines NEED a reason to use them fleshed out.

[das attorney 858]

No need for clunky weapon collision even! Make MXC and TRG20/TRG21 not pointless by adding weapon auto-lowering. The shorter the weapon - the less often it will get auto-lowered. Or it won't get autolowered at all if you'll strafe through a door compared to MX and especially MXM - making MXC and TRG ultimate CQB weapons since even lowering weapon for 0.5 secs would make you vulnerable for those 0.5 secs. When going to town players will have to pick short weapons and outside they will use longer ones.

That's quite a nice idea. Not sure I'd like an auto-lower thing as the solution but there must be some sort of incentive to make short barrelled guns king in (their native) urban environments.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Das Attorney

[metalcraze 290]

SWAT4 is a game where weapon is a virtual object floating in the air together with the camera. SWAT4 also has hitscan. There was no need for Irrational to add autolowering but they did and it felt very natural and responsive.

If BIS took the stance system idea from SWAT's direct competitor - R6 Raven Shield why not take the best from SWAT4?

Can be just as smooth - weapon collides with something? Immediately lower it like ~45 degrees, don't break any movement animations, kinda like reloading and moving. Not colliding anymore at the point where it was? Auto-raise it immediately. Yes it may and probably will still clip a bit when lowered but to you and to other people it will look a lot better than what we have now or getting stuck in a doorway. There should only be a collision calculation needed for the engine, no the actual weapon collision that will make you stuck for 0.1 secs until it's lowered or something - so the movement will be perfectly smooth.

Kinda like 3D scopes with whole 3D space magnified. Not optimal solution but miles better than just 2D overlay.

[EDcase 87]

The auto-lowering was suggested somewhere else. I think even on the Feedback tracker somewhere. (I'll have a look)

Even though it may get annoying sometimes its got to be better than getting stuck in a doorway or between rocks :mad:

I wonder if it would be smooth/fast enough in ARMA

[bad benson 1733]

I agree its way better as you will see the weapons 3D model in the scope,the reflections on the scope itself and the front post moving around and that all adds to much better experience.Now I would love to see the outside blurred but I dont think they can do that effectively since the scope moves around the screen and so a simple overlay blurred mask would not work.

.

i was thinking about that and i think the best way would be to do the following.

since the scope will always be in the pilot lod there shouldn't be a problem adding a poly plane that only appears when the sights are up. so the mask would be applied to that plane as a texture. then they could experiment to find a texture that does the job best. and it would also leave room for experiments for the modders.

here's a quick and dirty mock up of what the end result could look like.

http://i.cubeupload.com/guBFMR.jpg

sort of like a mix between old and new.

[brynjard 2]

No. I have nothing against certain popular mission types, but going down that rabbit-hole to suit one sector of the player base is a fundamentally bad idea. Balance is something that should be left to the mission-maker.

Couldn`t be more agree.

If you could chose in the creating of a mission or host of a server it would be great for both.

[jgaz-uk 132]

This is better than what we have now: https://twitter.com/IvanBuchta/status/342286940072181760/photo/1

The Immage in your link looks right where is that from??

New A3 sniper; the magnification outside of the sight spoils the games realism way too much.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=151261520

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=151261169

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=151260971

Opinion expressed nothing further to add :cool:

Edited June 7, 2013 by jgaz-uk

[Smurf 12]

The Immage in your link looks right where is that from??

New A3 sniper; the magnification outside of the sight spoils the games realism way too much.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=151261520

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=151261169

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=151260971

Opinion expressed nothing further to add :cool:

Ivan Twitter. You can also see it in motion on the Pre-E3 Hangout. It has all screen zoom, hope to see it adressed somehow (darker borders, blur), but it is better;

[chortles 263]

jgaz-uk, none of the three Steam Community screenshot links work, and Smurf is correct, the new sight (what the ARCO will look like) was shown off during the 1 July livestream.

[Phantom Six 25]

No they can't

You haven't made many missions have you...

I made a mission where you snipe.... as a guerilla with a hunting rifle in ARMA 2... I would like to be able to do something where you get some measly weak piece of equipment against high tech again... If Green isn't some guerilla force all the time, then the feeling of OFP resistance is lost in ARMA 3? Playing the resistance and guerilla fighters are what some people who are looking for a challenge find the most fun at times. What a pity....

Overall, nothing should ever be balance since a good tactician would position himself where his men have the advantage while the enemy is in a disadvantage. If you're fighting an equal battle, then your tactics and strategies have failed you. If you want to balance things... just make a mission where you give both side the same guns...

[Wolfstriked 11]

i was thinking about that and i think the best way would be to do the following.

since the scope will always be in the pilot lod there shouldn't be a problem adding a poly plane that only appears when the sights are up. so the mask would be applied to that plane as a texture. then they could experiment to find a texture that does the job best. and it would also leave room for experiments for the modders.

here's a quick and dirty mock up of what the end result could look like.

http://i.cubeupload.com/guBFMR.jpg

sort of like a mix between old and new.

This seems more immerse than blur,I like it!But you have to see it all in motion to get true effect.

[EDcase 87]

...Overall, nothing should ever be balance since a good tactician would position himself where his men have the advantage while the enemy is in a disadvantage. If you're fighting an equal battle, then your tactics and strategies have failed you. If you want to balance things... just make a mission where you give both side the same guns...

Yes, you can do that for infantry weapons but not heavy stuff like tanks or choppers etc because you won't be able to tell who is who.

I don't know if I'm describing it well enough to convey the limitations of asymetric only battles.

Let me put it another way and then I'll shut up...

ARMA will ALWAYS allow for assymetric battle situations because the mission maker can give inferior equipment to one side. (ie Less ammo, no scopes, smaller fighting vehicles, unarmed choppers etc)

BUT

If you want a PvP game with 4 factions where each side has equal power then it will not be possible because you cant have them all using the same vehicles and aircraft.

Making all the equipment between factions very different will make it impossible to have balanced battles when you want them.

Of course there should be some variation between different factions equipment but their effectiveness should be virtually the same. eg lets say BluFor has a more powerful tank which moves and fires more slowly while OpFor have a slightly lighter tank fires and moves slightly faster but they are both still heavy tank class with weapon damage and armor about the same.

Edited June 8, 2013 by EDcase

[Fap 1]

All I can, and want to say, is this...

Is ArmA not a military simulator? Did it not strive for realism in the past?

Why is it turning into an unrealistic first person shooter, catering for the masses and the money?

I am disgusted, truly. The direction this is going we might aswell call it "Duty Calls 2".

[-Coulum- 35]

Sorry I have not read the last few pages so excuse me if I am missing something but I have to put this out there. If you want perfectly balanced PvP battles (and are willing to sacrifice realism for it) what is so bad about simply giving teams the same weapons. This will give you the perfect balance you want will it not? If you want both sides to have weapons with the same stats, what is the need to have them with different skins as well?

[2nd ranger 282]

This is funny because I remember an Arma 2 OA thread where a bunch of people were complaining about thing not being balanced.

[Cyper 18]

It isn't about balance.

It's about realism, and if you don't agree...

[jgaz-uk 132]

Ivan Twitter. You can also see it in motion on the Pre-E3 Hangout. It has all screen zoom, hope to see it adressed somehow (darker borders, blur), but it is better;

The ability to by pressing a key to shut the other eye would be very realistic

chant the mantra "keep it real" :)