Up to my Old Tricks again: God like powers of Vision

[concurssi 11]

sorry but that is nonsense. you either haven't played/are playing proper PvP yourself or you don't know how to use 3rd person to your advantage. not saying it should be removed or forced by the game itself or anything. it's just that it can be exploited a lot. this doesn't mean that one person has an advantage over another per say but in certain situations especially in cqc it does. it doesn't mean it makes the game unfair because, well, everyone could just camp behind corners or on roofs and wait till someone he spotted while being 100% concealed turns around and then stand up/lean and shot him. this might not be as obvious or important in large scale PvP like arma PR but in any cqc situation it's drastically changing gameplay.

the point is not that it's unfair. it is that it simply degrades cqc PvP to something that doesn't resemble realistic cqc at all.

it's a problematic issue since 3rd person is certainly a core feature of the ofp/arma series. there are PvP gamemodes like AAS for arma that use scripting to disable 3rd person no matter what settings the server has. i think the responsibility lies with the mission makers and server admins to ensure there can be a proper "pvp culture". i personally would play more PvP if it had clearer rules. not because i get owned by people using the exploit but because i feel cheap using it myself. which i do a lot when it's available (which it is 90% of the time):D.

I think there's some kind of misunderstanding here. I'm not saying I like 3rd person being in PvP; I don't. What I am saying is that because it's an option, and because there are servers with it disabled, when you play on a PvP server with 3rd person enabled you are making a choice, a decision, to play on that server, and by extension you are also making a decision to play with 3rd person enabled.

You also have the option to play a different kind of PvP, one where there is no 3rd person view. What this means is that there are different kinds, different flavours of PvP available, and to say that 3rd person hurts PvP universally is not true. It hurts your view, your preferred flavour of PvP, but that's about it.

[Frankdatank1218 39]

But if there are very few servers with it disabled because either people like it (including CrayZ DayZ fans :P) or people don't bother to change default settings, and none of those few servers have slots and/or playable ping is it REALLY an option?

[concurssi 11]

That is, once again, tough luck. If you can't find any servers with 3rd person view disabled, then you can always make your own.

[Alabatross 1]

Because of situational awareness.

Thats what higher FOV is for

[ProfTournesol 956]

Thats what higher FOV is for

But that's not enough, as i can't "feel my body" ingame.

[bad benson 1733]

I think there's some kind of misunderstanding here.

But do you guys really think it doesn't hurt pvp AT ALL? Really?

No, it doesn't. It's an option...

yea obviously you misunderstand. people are referring to 3rd person exploits as a reason why they prefer 1st person. they demand more 1st person PvP servers because there are barely any. the fact that there's some kind of option doesn't change the fact that 3rd person exploits degrade arma's cqc PvP in terms of realism (has always been the case in any arma/ofp). it has nothing to do with it at all. it also doesn't "fix" that the ratio between 1st person and 3rd person PvP servers is off to a degree that sometimes you just can't play PvP if you apply your rule of "just join the right server - problem solved". you are mixing things up here.

I'm not saying I like 3rd person being in PvP; I don't.

That is, once again, tough luck. If you can't find any servers with 3rd person view disabled

you are not very convincing. it seems you don't care about the issue at all and are just stuck in your "options" cycle. stop replying to everyone with your template argument. i made specific statements and suggestions. it's not as black and white as you and the OP make it seem.

[Dallas 9]

I still wont let you get away with calling third person view an exploit, a cheat or wall hack, that would be like me trying to get first person view and scopes removed from the game, because they are accuracy exploits.

You'll simply have to accept that the influx of new players that came with DayZ and ArmA 3 prefers another difficulty setting than you.

I primarily played DayZ as a peaceful survivor and did so on a third person server. I never PvP'd unless forced into a corner, but I never had problems heading into major cities, which were the designated PvP-zones. You see, if you're hiding somewhere on a roof, scanning in third person, you're completely immobile and as long as players down below, know what they are doing, they are presenting small and short windows for the sniper to land a successful hit.

As long as you're constantly moving, moving somewhat unpredictable and never take long straight lines over exposed ground, you'll usually be just fine. It's when you stop out in the open, below the most well-known sniper spots, you get killed over and over. A major city is a obstacle rich environment and if you keep moving, anyone engaging you will constantly lose sight of you and will either have to give up his position and give chase or look for an easier target. It's a bit like people calling snipers "camper," if a camper has revealed himself in a advantageous position and you constantly walk straight into his killzone, you're the one with the problem. However if a sniper is camping, it's pretty easy locate his loud weapon and ArmA presents enough detail to allow tactical aware players to flank him.

It's pretty clear that third person doesn't hurt PvP, if it did these servers would be empty. PvP is alive and well on third person enabled servers and people accept on these servers that third person can work both for and against them. The only ones, who don't accept third person view on third person servers are first person players, who joins the server because it's full.

[Frankdatank1218 39]

It's pretty clear that third person doesn't hurt PvP, if it did these servers would be empty.

Ridiculous, just because something is still succeeding means NOTHING is hampering or hurting it? I'm not saying PVP is a failure with 3rd person, but that it is merely damaged and hurt by it.

[chortles 263]

Even if BI removed this OPTION (which they won't do), people (1337 v3t3r4ns!!!!!111!!, "I play ArmA since OFP!1!!") will find other ways to expose their dick size. Nature of human beings.

+1

You are correct, I know the only solution is to join a server with proper realism setings, but my main problem with it is the HUGE inclination of the playerbase towards this kind of gameplay. My fear is that 1st person servers will become rarer and rarer (a pvp example: Try finding say like, DayZ servers with realism settings. I just tried on DayZ Commander, and it shows 18 servers without 3rd person out of 6061 found) and that Bohemia will eventually tend to adjust their games to this kind of playerbase.

After playing around with the infantry changes, you act like they already haven't. :p

You'll simply have to accept that the influx of new players that came with DayZ and ArmA 3 prefers another difficulty setting than you.

And that's what this comes down to, doesn't it? +1 for someone else who's okay with the influx and the resultant player base change.

[bad benson 1733]

I still wont let you get away with calling third person view an exploit, a cheat or wall hack, that would be like me trying to get first person view and scopes removed from the game, because they are accuracy exploits.

sorry but it makes no sense. i'm talking about realism. also if you are so convinced that it isn't and exploit why do you make a long post about how to counter it. the difference is that you can just wait until the person stops and then engage. i don't see how the fact that "you have the option" to move around the terrain cautiously and in a tactical way changes the fact that you can look around corners and from roofs with 3rd person without exposing yourself at all. you are just describing tactical behaviour as a counter for the exploit and proving yourself wrong by doing it.

It's pretty clear that third person doesn't hurt PvP

when it comes to realism/authenticity than it does certainly "hurt"(not my choice of words) PvP. PvP as part of the spectrum or the community isn't "hurt" by it at all. that's not what people mean. how come it's so hard to understand the difference?

EDIT: i'm not judging anyone for using the exploit. i do so myself quite successfully. i just find it funny how people can't see it is one. i also don't want to force anyone to use my preference. i just don't think it's true that it is a non-issue.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Bad Benson

[Dallas 9]

+1

After playing around with the infantry changes, you act like they already haven't. :pAnd that's what this comes down to, doesn't it? +1 for someone else who's okay with the influx and the resultant player base change.

That's correct, I'm perfectly okay with people playing DayZ/ArmA differently within the parameters Bi has established over a decade, that's always been present in the series and BI is not going to remove a legitimate feature(not an exploit) simply because it's popular.

sorry but it makes no sense. i'm talking about realism. also if you are so convinced that it isn't and exploit why do you make a long post about how to counter it. the difference is that you can just wait until the person stops and then engage. i don't see how the fact that "you have the option" to move around the terrain cautiously and in a tactical way changes the fact that you can look around corners and from roofs with 3rd person without exposing yourself at all. you are just describing tactical behaviour as a counter for the exploit and proving yourself wrong by doing it.

when it comes to realism/authenticity than it does certainly "hurt"(not my choice of words) PvP. PvP as part of the spectrum or the community isn't "hurt" by it at all. that's not what people mean. how come it's so hard to understand the difference?

EDIT: i'm not judging anyone for using the exploit. i do so myself quite successfully. i just find it funny how people can't see it is one. i also don't want to force anyone to use my preference. i just don't think it's true that it is a non-issue.

-If you're static out in the open, you're the sitting duck, not me and you're still trying to redefine a difficulty setting as cheat.

-Any simulator out there has external cameras, just because a game is a simulator, doesn't mean it's a 1:1 recreation of real life.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Dallas

[spaceBeluga 10]

That's correct, I'm perfectly okay with people playing DayZ/ArmA differently within the parameters Bi has established over a decade, that's always been present in the series and BI is not going to remove a legitimate feature(not an exploit) simply because it's popular.

Please, stop spamming the "it's not an exploit, it's a feature" button in every comment. No, Bohemia will not remove 3rd person from the game, rest assured. Who asks for this is completely retarded/out of his mind. Stop shaking that flag so vigorously, will you?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Please, stop spamming the "it's not an exploit, it's a feature" button in every comment. No, Bohemia will not remove 3rd person from the game, rest assured. Who asks for this is completely retarded/out of his mind. Stop shaking that flag so vigorously, will you?

So you'd better re read that very topic. And yes that would be retarded.

[spaceBeluga 10]

PvP as part of the spectrum or the community isn't "hurt" by it at all. that's not what people mean. how come it's so hard to understand the difference?

I'm sure these people are just denying/pretending not to see the obvious because they just like watching their character in 3rd person. How can one say that using 3rd person to see through a variety of obstacles doesn't hurt pvp is beyond me.

[Dallas 9]

^^Because 3rd person servers are alive and thriving, contrary to 1st person servers.

Public servers will always cater to more casual players, while hardcore communities play on password or heavily administrated servers.

Please, stop spamming the "it's not an exploit, it's a feature" button in every comment. No, Bohemia will not remove 3rd person from the game, rest assured. Who asks for this is completely retarded/out of his mind. Stop shaking that flag so vigorously, will you?

I know it's here to stay, I'm just pointing it out, every time someone attempt to redefine it as such.

[spaceBeluga 10]

-Any simulator out there has external cameras, just because a game is a simulator, doesn't mean it's a 1:1 recreation of real life.

Yea, because every simulator out there has pvp right? You are unbelievable.

We're talking PVP-ONLY.

Don't you think it's completely surreal, given the context of the game (milsim) when people can use the third person camera to look around corners when even arcade fps like Battlefield, Counter-Strike, Call of Duty restrict this kind of EXPLOIT (woo, forbidden word right?)? It doesn't make any sense. Isn't Arma is supposed to be realistic? Do you think it's realistic to do the 3rd person camera trick?

[bad benson 1733]

you're still trying to redefine a difficulty setting as cheat.

-Any simulator out has external cameras, just because a game is a simulator, doesn't mean it's a 1:1 recreation of real life.

you are the one redefining stuff. i'm stating facts about what you can do using third person. which is looking around corners and from high places without exposing yourself. so not 3rd person itself is a cheat but the exploits it offers. if you want to give it a different name do so. doesn't make a difference...at least to me. and it doesn't change the facts. it's ok if you are more passionate about this then me. no need to make false statements about what i do or say though.:)

if you want to reply to me then better read my posts thoroughly before doing so. sure there are simulators with 3rd person. and sure it's a part of arma that i enjoy myself. my statements were about PvP (especially cqc) realism and authenticity not the whole game. stop trying to find weird ways of making facts look non factual just because you have some kind of emotional tie to the issue. i'm just trying to give some honest input to the discussion.

again i'm not asking to remove 3rd person from the game. i'm making specific statements about specific aspects of the discussion.

anyways. i'm done juggling words with you guys. this is going nowhere as many stated before:). just wanted to add (2 posts ago) a new aspect to the discussion by saying that i think that mission makers can influence the situation before i got pulled into this irrational vortex of opinions...

-If you're static out in the open, you're the sitting duck, not me

i don't get it. are you one of these guys sniping people in dayZ and secretly feeling bad about it?

[Dallas 9]

As I already wrote, I play as a peaceful survivor in DayZ on a third person server, I don't allow myself to fire the first shot ever. However this doesn't mean I don't know how to avoid open fields, sitting still presenting bad shooters with a perfect target.

[Frankdatank1218 39]

As I already wrote, I play as a peaceful survivor in DayZ on a third person server, I don't allow myself to fire the first shot ever. However this doesn't mean I don't know how to avoid open fields, sitting still presenting bad shooters with a perfect target.

Sitting still and not using cover gets you killed whether 3rd Person is on or not. So it's not a solution. It's doesn't address magic vision over obstacles.

[Crierd 24]

Sure, I dont see why people rely on things like this? Do you really think that a slightly impaired sense of awareness compares to being able to see over walls and around corners, spotting enemies without even having to peak.? people can still play coop or sp while learning how to play with all the noob features, that way the game remains accessible for beginners and challenging/immersive for the experienced.

Within resonable latency to Australia? there is none.

Nobody is saying its not fair, its about gameplay.

Oh well, I guess you can't convince someone of something rational if they're irrational. I'm just glad I don't play Arma with you, no offense, of course. I'll just agree to disagree.

[Frankdatank1218 39]

Oh well, I guess you can't convince someone of something rational if they're irrational. I'm just glad I don't play Arma with you, no offense, of course. I'll just agree to disagree.

Saying something is wrong with being able to see around walls with no exposure whatsoever in a tactical game is totally irrational. WOW! You have obviously never sniped from Chernogorsk's highrises, and scouted targets by laying on your belly and using your god-like 3rd person vision to see everything with ZERO exposure and vulnerability. Then you would realize how cheap these tactics are and how they are available only when 3rd person is available.

[SpecOp9 0]

If you're playing PvP, then yes, 3rd person view should be disabled. However, taking it out of the game completely is ridiculous. It is a feature that can be turned on and off in the difficulty settings, it's as simple as that. If you don't like it, don't use it.

This

I like my 3rd person view. Sometimes I need to playtest my missions, bro. And that 3rd person helps.

[r3volution 0]

^^^^^^

See above. If you hate it don't use it and disable it on your MP server. You can do whatever you like in 1st person, but 3rd person is WAY more useful for mission making etc.

[Frankdatank1218 39]

This

I like my 3rd person view. Sometimes I need to playtest my missions, bro. And that 3rd person helps.

I don't mind it for play testing, coop, and singleplayer.

[dsi24 12]

Hey Dallas, how do you fight against third person?

One of the hallmarks of an exploit is that it is unbeatable in practice, and there sure is no way to beat someone you don't know exists but knows you exist through a magical wallhack camera :)