Up to my Old Tricks again: God like powers of Vision

[Geezuz 10]

Because of situational awareness.

TrackIr.

[tonygrunt 10]

TrackIr.

Are you giving them away for free? If not, then that's not even close to a solution.

[Dallas 9]

OP is confused, OP thinks ArmA is a first person shooter. OP is wrong. ArmA is not a FPS. ArmA is a milsim and ArmA simulates every level of the battlefield. ArmA can be played as everything between a shooter and a RTS and even the most hardcore flight simulator out there allows for fly-by and other external cameras.

Third person view has been a part of the game since 2001, OP you've been here since today. :)

[looter 10]

Sure removing it from the whole game is a bit too far, it doesnt bother me how other people enjoy the game privately, assumed the OP was a PvP type player.

But I think asking BIS to remove it from MP, except for maybe coop, is not all that ridiculous.

It's a server option. play on servers that have admins that know what they are doing and want third person disabled as much as you do, end of story.

[big_t 1]

OP is confused, OP thinks ArmA is a first person shooter. OP is wrong. ArmA is not a FPS. ArmA is a milsim and ArmA simulates every level of the battlefield. ArmA can be played as everything between a shooter and a RTS and even the most hardcore flight simulator out there allows for fly-by and other external cameras.

Third person view has been a part of the game since 2001, OP you've been here since today. :)

to supplement your point: Also Horse drawn carriages have been around along a lot longer than cars, so maybe we should keep on using them for basic means of transport?

Just because something was implemented in the first series does not mean it's the best. Old habits (crutches) die hard , but sometimes they are necessary for advancement.

If it is indeed meant to be a simulator, in real life you don't have a floating camera following you around the battlefield.

[AbortedMan 1]

Are you giving them away for free? If not, then that's not even close to a solution.

Yup.

FaceTrackNoIR. Google it.

[tonygrunt 10]

@ Big_T

You do know that 3rd person is optional(client,server,mission) and some of us see the usage of it if you can't see any.

Server admins can choose what they offer and players where they play. Find servers that have it disabled and play there.

Can't find enough servers with it disabled, make your own one.

I don't see why you think you have to dictate to other people how they must play the game and what is best for them.

Yup.

FaceTrackNoIR. Google it.

FaceTrackNoIR is not TrackIR, it's in the name.

[Geezuz 10]

Are you giving them away for free? If not, then that's not even close to a solution.

No I am not, and yes it still is.

Better hardware/peripherals make certain games better to play. Better wheels/pedals make racing better to play than say that latest MS wheel that doesn't even have a stand. Live with it.

I tried to play DCS A-10 with a normal joystick. Hard to do. Got the HOTAS joystick/throttle combo - it's perfect now. Should the DCS team make the game easier, or introduce "gamey' features because not everybody can afford a good joystick? No.

It's a simulation. If you want to play it with all bells and whistles, expect to pay.

What, do you think I am going to complain if someone with a three-monitor setup has better awareness then me with trackIr in iRacing? No. I suck it up, and live within my restrictions. I am not asking that three monitor setup is taken out/gimped or whatever just to level a playing field. If I want that, I need to pay for three monitors and a rack. If I don't want that, fine.

But to each their own. You want ArmA to be more 'gamey' because you don't want to have a disadvantage against someone who spends $150 on their simulation peripherals? Fine, that's your opinion. However, I don't agree, and no snippy-ness on your part is going to change that.

[Crierd 24]

Sure removing it from the whole game is a bit too far, it doesnt bother me how other people enjoy the game privately, assumed the OP was a PvP type player.

But I think asking BIS to remove it from MP, except for maybe coop, is not all that ridiculous.

So remove an entire feature on multi player just because you find it unrealistic? Why not remove the ability to see where you are on the map, or remove cross hairs. I mean, because you find it unrealistic, let's remove it for everyone.

Your argument is ridiculous. You mentioned in a previous post that it's near impossible to find a server with 3rd person removed. I'm not entirely sure what you're doing, but you are definitely doing something wrong. There are plenty of servers and communities who cater to first person only game modes and missions.

P.S. This same general response goes to the OP. Don't play servers with it. It's really that simple.

[tonygrunt 10]

No I am not, and yes it still is.

Better hardware/peripherals make certain games better to play. Better wheels/pedals make racing better to play than say that latest MS wheel that doesn't even have a stand. Live with it.

I tried to play DCS A-10 with a normal joystick. Hard to do. Got the HOTAS joystick/throttle combo - it's perfect now. Should the DCS team make the game easier, or introduce "gamey' features because not everybody can afford a good joystick? No.

It's a simulation. If you want to play it with all bells and whistles, expect to pay.

What, do you think I am going to complain if someone with a three-monitor setup has better awareness then me with trackIr in iRacing? No. I suck it up, and live within my restrictions. I am not asking that three monitor setup is taken out/gimped or whatever just to level a playing field. If I want that, I need to pay for three monitors and a rack. If I don't want that, fine.

But to each their own. You want ArmA to be more 'gamey' because you don't want to have a disadvantage against someone who spends $150 on their simulation peripherals? Fine, that's your opinion. However, I don't agree, and no snippy-ness on your part is going to change that.

No you just want to force me to play the game the way you think is best (no 3rd person) and call my play style gamey.

I objected to your solution for the loss of situational awareness due to removal of 3rd person with asking people to buy TrackIR and get over it.

Would you be ok if it was forced upon you the usage of only 3rd person enabled servers?

[Dallas 9]

to supplement your point: Also Horse drawn carriages have been around along a lot longer than cars, so maybe we should keep on using them for basic means of transport?

Just because something was implemented in the first series does not mean it's the best. Old habits (crutches) die hard , but sometimes they are necessary for advancement.

If it is indeed meant to be a simulator, in real life you don't have a floating camera following you around the battlefield.

All I'm saying, maybe you think ArmA is something it isn't, maybe your view of ArmA is too narrow.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Dallas

[Gorbachev 1]

This is something I argued with about the Red Orchestra developers from when it was still a mod. Humans have an almost 180-degree forward-facing horizontal field of view. You can only simulate this by allowing zoom and unzoom features in a video game. Notice they added it in RO2 because they realized that seeing a man on the battlefield at full 90FOV on a 21inch screen was unrealistically harder than it ought to be in REAL LIFE - the thing they were trying so hard to simulate!

3rd person is another way of compensating for limited FOV caused by the restraints of modern viewing technology - your monitor. Add a TrackIR and you're just as well off as us poor guys who enjoy 3rd person.

[AbortedMan 1]

This is something I argued with about the Red Orchestra developers from when it was still a mod. Humans have an almost 180-degree forward-facing horizontal field of view. You can only simulate this by allowing zoom and unzoom features in a video game. Notice they added it in RO2 because they realized that seeing a man on the battlefield at full 90FOV on a 21inch screen was unrealistically harder than it ought to be in REAL LIFE - the thing they were trying so hard to simulate!

3rd person is another way of compensating for limited FOV caused by the restraints of modern viewing technology - your monitor. Add a TrackIR and you're just as well off as us poor guys who enjoy 3rd person.

3rd person doesn't just compensate for a limited FOV though, it allows you to look over walls and around corners when you really truly should not be able to, creating an overly unrealistic scenario.

Simple solution to the problem is to just stick to servers that allow or, conversely, don't allow 3rd person view...there will most certainly be plenty of both flavors.

Also, to debunk the "TrackIR costs too much so it's an unfair/unreachable advantage": By saying TrackIR, you're just saying head tracking, FaceTrackNoIR achieves the same exact effect...granted you have a human face (or 3 LEDs) and a webcam, or $17 to buy a PS2 EyeCam (streams at 120fps for maximum effectiveness over most other cams), and the software is absolutely free.

[tonygrunt 10]

Personally, I don't like TrackIR due to the added eye strain(have already enough of it) when moving my head.

If you have a webcam, FaceTrackNoIR is a good way to see the pro/cons of headtracking before buying TrackIR.

Maybe future HMDs will be the solution.

[AbortedMan 1]

Personally, I don't like TrackIR due to the added eye strain(have already enough of it) when moving my head.

If you have a webcam, FaceTrackNoIR is a good way to see the pro/cons of headtracking before buying TrackIR.

Maybe future HMDs will be the solution.

Well, then you're gimping yourself a bit in regards to playing with 1st person view, and missing out on a well received and entertaining feature. You have to admit, though, using 3rd person to look over walls and see around corners and such is a bit of "gaming the game" and chips (chunks, actually) away at the concealment/cover/firing-solution-in-regards-to-visiblity aspects of the gameplay...it effectively negates a strategic and tactical use of walls/trenches/corners/buildings/windows/trees/bushes/cover/concealment/etc cover/fire/hiding meta-game.

...forward slash.

[freemangl 1]

It's fair if anyone can use it!

So I like 3rd view.

[-Coulum- 35]

3rd person is unrealistic and gives you abilities you would not have in real life.

First person is unrealistic and limits some of the abilities you would have in real life.

Personally I prefer the latter because you don't have to anticipate enemies using unrealistic tactics in game (seeing your movements while in safety). 1st person does result in more realistic gameplay especially if you have played fps for a long time and are used to the limited fov.

But it really is all about personal preference and should not be removed.

[NevilleBartos 10]

So remove an entire feature on multi player just because you find it unrealistic? Why not remove the ability to see where you are on the map, or remove cross hairs. I mean, because you find it unrealistic, let's remove it for everyone.

Sure, I dont see why people rely on things like this? Do you really think that a slightly impaired sense of awareness compares to being able to see over walls and around corners, spotting enemies without even having to peak.? people can still play coop or sp while learning how to play with all the noob features, that way the game remains accessible for beginners and challenging/immersive for the experienced.

Your argument is ridiculous. You mentioned in a previous post that it's near impossible to find a server with 3rd person removed. I'm not entirely sure what you're doing, but you are definitely doing something wrong. There are plenty of servers and communities who cater to first person only game modes and missions.

P.S. This same general response goes to the OP. Don't play servers with it. It's really that simple.

Within resonable latency to Australia? there is none.

It's fair if anyone can use it!

So I like 3rd view.

Nobody is saying its not fair, its about gameplay.

Edited March 8, 2013 by NevilleBartos

[tonygrunt 10]

Well, then you're gimping yourself a bit in regards to playing with 1st person view, and missing out on a well received and entertaining feature. You have to admit, though, using 3rd person to look over walls and see around corners and such is a bit of "gaming the game" and chips (chunks, actually) away at the concealment/cover/firing-solution-in-regards-to-visiblity aspects of the gameplay...it effectively negates a strategic and tactical use of walls/trenches/corners/buildings/windows/trees/bushes/cover/concealment/etc cover/fire/hiding meta-game.

...forward slash.

I would be gimping myself if I hurt my eyes, maybe it's my age but using a monitor is not so painless as it used to be. And for gimping ingame, I have mapped "look" to a mouse button and can use the mouse to do a quick look around. Your points of using 3rd person are more important for PVP, which I don't do (except the occasional warfare).

Within resonable latency to Australia? there is none.

So because you can't find enough people in your country to play the way you prefer, you want to force the entire ArmA population to use 1st person only.

Anything else? What if they don't want to play your favorite mission, should we force playmodes too?

Edited March 8, 2013 by TonyGrunt

[Hillsbills 1]

Give me a stance indicator and I can do without third person.

[NevilleBartos 10]

So because you can't find enough people in your country to play the way you prefer, you want to force the entire ArmA population to use 1st person only.

Anything else? What if they don't want to play your favorite mission, should we force playmodes too?

Did you even read my posts?

[roguetrooper 2]

Until you are not moving away from your computer and do the real thing (whatever) out there in the real world, it remains 'imperfect'.

How actually can

* sitting in a comfortable chair in a warm room

* with hands being the only body parts that move

deliver a 100% real experience?

I a game (until programmed accordingly) you can even stand for one hour with a raised gun looking through the optics. Try this in the real world.

Thousand hours of playing a "shooter" (sorry for that evil, childish, stupid and unfitting word) do NOT replace a single hour of real military(like) training. Since the view perspective is optional, it's ok.

As somebody said before me here, 1st person isn't fully realistic either. It "feels" a bit like wearing a heavy motorbike helmet with the edges of the glass being blackened.

Edited March 8, 2013 by RogueTrooper

[tonygrunt 10]

Did you even read my posts?

Do you even read what you post? Let's do a little backtrack of your posts.

Most server admins for whatever reason leave 3rd enabled, its near on impossible to find one with decent PvP settings.

You post that you can't find enough 3rd person enabled servers.

Sure removing it from the whole game is a bit too far, it doesnt bother me how other people enjoy the game privately, assumed the OP was a PvP type player.

But I think asking BIS to remove it from MP, except for maybe coop, is not all that ridiculous.

Maybe I am wrong, but you are advocating the removal of 3rd person from MP for PVP servers.

Within resonable latency to Australia? there is none.

You can't find servers in Australia because there not enough people there playing to your liking.

So tell me where am I wrong in posting?

So because you can't find enough people in your country to play the way you prefer, you want to force the entire ArmA population to use 1st person only.

Anything else? What if they don't want to play your favorite mission, should we force playmodes too?

Did you take offence on my sarcastic last sentence?

Edited March 8, 2013 by TonyGrunt

[Geezuz 10]

No you just want to force me to play the game the way you think is best (no 3rd person) and call my play style gamey.

I objected to your solution for the loss of situational awareness due to removal of 3rd person with asking people to buy TrackIR and get over it.

Would you be ok if it was forced upon you the usage of only 3rd person enabled servers?

Sorry I didn't mean that. I wouldn't want to force anything on anybody or ask anyone to buy anything. I meant that TrackIr IS a valid solution for more situational awareness *should* a 3rd person viewpoint not be available. Yes its expensive. Doesn't mean it's not valid. In the end, you can also use mouse/keyboard to "move the head".

Also, if 3rd person WAS forced on me and I was aware the game is a 3rd person game then yes, that'd be ok for me.

Similarly, any simulation in which external viewpoints are unavailable are also ok with me - just because it's convention in shooters doesn't make it automatically good in a sim for me. Recharging health is 'convention' in 'shooters' as well. I don't want that here either.

To be clear, I don't really feel either way about the viewpoint - I'll play mainly singleplayer and then it's up to me to use it or not (I won't - just doesn't feel 'sim'y enough for me). I just think if a simulator dev decides to remove or not have 3rd person then TrackIr is a valid way to achieve more situational awareness. Same with flight sims. Yes you can use a coolie hat to look around, and those arrows are ok. TrackIr is just better imo. I'm crazy though - I for instance will not play a racing game without cockpit view.

You could consider indicators for noises and other things as well. Get creative. There are plenty of options. On the other hand, 3rd person view can make for prettier images.

Do strongly agree with the stance indicator though.

[metalcraze 290]

It's there because 1st person is not realistic either. You don't get any 'sense' of your surroundings..limited FOV.. I could go on.

You get real FOV when you are zoomed out - by default.

3rd person is just a cheat. What situational awareness? My real situational awareness doesn't allow me to see around corners while I'm facing the wall.

My situational awareness doesn't allow me to see over and behind stone walls. I can't peek into windows unless I use my own eyes. I also don't see my own body from 4 meters behind.

But I treat 3rd person as a way to just check new infantry/vehicle/weapon mods. MP with a 3rd person is a big no no for me.

However thankfully we still have the option to enforce 1st person so it's not a tragedy for me.