6.5 mm and recoil management in game

[Rory 1]

You guys might want to take into consideration that the 6.5 in game is a CASELESS round. It doesn't use gunpowder, it's closer to a projectile wrapped in plastic explosive.

The solid propellant in caseless ammunition does not exert a force equivalent to plastic explosive, otherwise it would be absolutely silly to insert into a gun(and most likely fatal). It is comparable to conventional ammunition in most aspects(minus its lighter weight and lower durability). This includes how it effects recoil.

[Nikoteen 24]

As a frequent shooter of many different rifles, including ones that fire intermediate cartridges, I can from personal experience say that the recoil in games is quite excessive. I think most people that pick up something like an AKM or one of its variants are surprised at how low the recoil's effects on a sight picture is. It is very manageable. 6.5 is even more so, having been designed to somewhat combine the advantages of the 5.56 NATO and larger calibers. The current recoil within the game is more reminiscent of a battle rifle cartridge, such as a 7.62x51 or even a .30-06.

Thank you, that the kind of feedback I was looking for :)

Now, of course I would appreciate to hear something from a dev about the design decision...

[gibonez 18]

Recoil is fine. I would actually like to see a tad bit more and deploy-able bipods added to the lmgs.

[GRS 10]

Anyone who complains about there not being enough recoil needs to pick a target 500 meters away and do a mag dump while standing and moving the mouse accordingly. You certainly won't hit the target with most of the shots, but you will gain an appreciation for the incredibly low recoil...

Please BIS, do not make this a full-auto sniper gunner rapid laser gun game.... It's OK as is, any weaker will be disappointing.

People also forget that popping a few rounds at 50 yards with Uncle Joe's AR15 is a LOT different than running full auto at anything at any distance.

I do agree a bit with the semi vs full recoil. In all ArmA games, semi has seemed more difficult to follow up with than full. I'd like to see full increased and semi kept the same. There is a reason gunners are usually the only ones rolling full auto...

Edited March 7, 2013 by GRS

[Beagle 684]

I shoot the 6.5 calibers quite often and what I can say it that even the large 6.5x55 is noticable softer than a 7.62x51 at the same amount of Energy in Joules around the 2900J

[Nikoteen 24]

Anyone who complains about there not being enough recoil needs to pick a target 500 meters away and do a mag dump while standing and moving the mouse accordingly. You certainly won't hit the target with most of the shots, but you will gain an appreciation for the incredibly low recoil...

Please BIS, do not make this a full-auto sniper gunner rapid laser gun game.... It's OK as is, any weaker will be disappointing.

People also forget that popping a few rounds at 50 yards with Uncle Joe's AR15 is a LOT different than running full auto at anything at any distance.

Everyone are obviously free to give its opinion if recoil is too much or not (or not enough if I read you well) but it is offending to tell people real life examples as most of the people here who agree with my point says to be either real life shooter or military and give their impression of how different it is IRL and in game.

Let's admit the recoil is broken but you like as it is, it's different thing than to tell we know shit on the subject.

[TG Marksman X 10]

The solid propellant in caseless ammunition does not exert a force equivalent to plastic explosive, otherwise it would be absolutely silly to insert into a gun(and most likely fatal). It is comparable to conventional ammunition in most aspects(minus its lighter weight and lower durability). This includes how it effects recoil.

I wasn't meaning to imply it had the force of a block of C4, merely suggesting the way in which it is fired.

[Beagle 684]

I wasn't meaning to imply it had the force of a block of C4, merely suggesting the way in which it is fired.

it is fired the exact same way as any cased ammunition...the differnce is just more problematic gas sealing and the likelyoodd to self ignite in a hot chamber...one of the main reasons the G11 was abandoned.

Another problem was that caseless ammunition does not like to be loaded and unloaded from magazines serveral times...hence the idea to deliver and store it in preloaded cheap and disposable 45 round magazines.

[GRS 10]

Everyone are obviously free to give its opinion if recoil is too much or not (or not enough if I read you well) but it is offending to tell people real life examples as most of the people here who agree with my point says to be either real life shooter or military and give their impression of how different it is IRL and in game.

Let's admit the recoil is broken but you like as it is, it's different thing than to tell we know shit on the subject.

Yeah, you're speaking to one of those shooters buddy... You think you can hold a full auto grouping like that, off hand, standing, at such a distance IRL? Bull.

[TG Marksman X 10]

it is fired the exact same way as any cased ammunition...the differnce is just more problematic gas sealing and the likelyoodd to self ignite in a hot chamber...one of the main reasons the G11 was abandoned.

Another problem was that caseless ammunition does not like to be loaded and unloaded from magazines serveral times...hence the idea to deliver and store it in preloaded cheap and disposable 45 round magazines.

I am referring to the propellant. Guess I need to choose my words more wisely around you lot.

Edit: It would appear that the most common propellant for caseless ammunition is very similar to gunpowder. My apologies.

Edited March 7, 2013 by TG Marksman X

[LeeManatee 4]

Recoil overdone? Then why do realism modes like ACE always add more of it?

did you even tried ACE mod?

[GRS 10]

If nothing else, the recoil should at least be less predictable.

[Hillsbills 1]

Recoil irl is absolutely predictable.

[BobcatBob 10]

I feel like the game is trying to increase player involvment by assuming that that natuaral sight picture/retention that you all are talking about (done reflexivly by our active muscles when firmly holding/bracing the weapon) does not occur automatically in game, and in Arma is up to us to simulate that ourselves (ontop of the usual effort required to further compensate residual recoil actively) with mouse compensation. So, if you assume that the game is trying to sumulate weapons recoil as if we were all holding it with no real grip or body-readiness whatsoever would the resulting kickback be accurate?

[Beagle 684]

I am referring to the propellant. Guess I need to choose my words more wisely around you lot.

the propellant does not matter much what matters is the burning rate. Muzzle velocities of 1500m/s with 4.7mm are easily possible but the problem so far always was barrel lifetime and overheating.

You can treat the projectile with a coating to reduce friction but in the end there is a limit to the old powder and ball procedure that limit is more pronounced in full auto fire...and that problem is know for 500 years since someone stuffed black powder and a iron ball in a brass tube...premature cookingn off in a hot barrel. Unless you reintroduce open bolt firing or watercooling again.

this

reminds me a lot of this needle gun paper cartridge from 1841, maximum effective range back then...1000m

The Dreyse system invented in the 1830's even uses a subcaliber sabot projectile.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Beagle

[Hillsbills 1]

I feel like the game is trying to increase player involvment by assuming that that natuaral sight picture/retention that you all are talking about (done reflexivly by our active muscles when firmly holding/bracing the weapon) does not occur automatically in game, and in Arma is up to us to simulate that ourselves (ontop of the usual effort required to further compensate residual recoil actively) with mouse compensation. So, if you assume that the game is trying to sumulate weapons recoil as if we were all holding it with no real grip or body-readiness whatsoever would the resulting kickback be accurate?

It's assuming that every shot is a negligent discharge, that our "bodies" weren't prepared at all to fire. On top of that, and where it's clearly broken, take a rifleman from the standing position and fire off thirty rounds in semi auto with no mouse input other than the trigger pull. By the time you're empty you'll be aiming 45 degrees skyward, that means the system even ignores gravity.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Hillsbills

[Tonci87 163]

My biggest problem with the recoil is that it is to slow.

Take an Opfor rifleman

go prone and aim at something through your ACOG sights

If you shoot your crosshair will move because of the recoil.

Observe how long it takes for your crosshair to stop moving.

I think that is the part that is actually wrong with the recoil. It doesn't snap, it goes up slowly.

[GRS 10]

Recoil irl is absolutely predictable.

Not when it's bouncing around on full auto. Watch a string of rounds impact in-game sometime. The line has almost zero horizontal play.

Edited March 8, 2013 by GRS

[Hillsbills 1]

No one is talking about full auto but you, even so, recoil in a weapon is not unpredictable.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Hillsbills

[mr burns 131]

"

" .. "

" *hitting shit*

For me the low FPS situation doesn´t only render any ROF but also any targting related issues void.

firefight in forest = insta zap to the head before i got my scope out

suppressive fire in forest = 25 RPM ROF due to low framerate, following insta heady

And when there´s no forests around, having good fps, i´m instakilled even more quickly...

Using ultra low AI levels for now, granting at least a slight chance of survival :D

{
_x setvariable ["bis_nocoreconversations",true];
if (side _x == east) then {
	_x allowfleeing 0;
	_x setSkill ["spotDistance", 0.30];
	_x setSkill ["spotTime", 0.80];
	_x setSkill ["commanding", 0.20];
	_x setSkill ["aimingSpeed", 0.3];
	_x setSkill ["aimingAccuracy", 0.1];			
};
} foreach allunits;

[Hillsbills 1]

Notice how this muzzle never climbs above the horizon.

[Beagle 684]

The recoil we have now was introduced because before a player could easily shoot at the same spot all the time, after every shot the wepon returned absolutey where it was before...even on full auto...full auto kills at 300m where the norm back then in ArmA II 1.05

After 1.06 it was introduced what we still have now. Back in 1.05 you could as well use binocs, look for target and switch to rifle and it was spot on.

PvP the current way you have to fight the mouse to counter the muzzle climb was quite a improvement to counter the full auto snipers.

You really get used to it after a while, call it "muscle memory" in the same way you get used to firing a gun

Not perfect but still better than what we had before since hiting something in games is still to easy.

And I noticed that after getting a high resolution gaming mouse with variable "speed" aka resolution that the ability to hit targets in games also depends on the hardware you use.

Gaming mouse with big gaming glide pad meant much better hit ratio for me.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Beagle

[Crierd 24]

Not when it's bouncing around on full auto. Watch a string of rounds impact in-game sometime. The line has almost zero horizontal play.

Full auto actually is predictable. It's not the same as quick semi-automatic fire, but the weapon can only recoil so much, and the action of the rifle is the same every time, so assuming your cores hooting principles are sound, and you employ recoil management techniques, it absolutely can be predictable.

Bare in mind predictable and effective at long range are completely different things.

[mr burns 131]

..you could as well use binocs, look for target and switch to rifle and it was spot on.

Now that one is so OFPschool i gotta cheer it! :cheers:

[Beagle 684]

Now that one is so OFPschool i gotta cheer it! :cheers:

Yeah we all did that because OFP had so few scoped rifles ;)