TOH flight model- if, when, how?

[samb 15]

Hi guys!

So basically I was trying to get an answer for the following in all Alpha releated topics in general section, still no answer so far. It problably got missed by guys who can answer, so I decided to make a separate topic on that.

We won't be getting TOH FM with initiall alpha release, I get it. Do You have plans for releasing it before, after or during beta? I assume that You are still going to include it at some point?

Also how will it be managed from modding point of view- SDK won't get released straight away as well, but could You please give us a some glimplse into how RotorLib is it going to be applied to helicopter models in A3? Is using it with A2 models going to be easy? Also will vortex ring be introduced with A3? Hope to get some answers, thank You!

Sam

[zoog 18]

I'm also interested to know more about the advanced flight models. Are they still planned (even if it's only at final release)?

[Langlet 1]

I'm also interested to know more about the advanced flight models. Are they still planned (even if it's only at final release)?

Yea, I think it's mentioned in the Confirmed Features thread :) TOH flight model will be there for gold version at least.

The ToH flight model will be the default flight model for all the helicopters and will be used in the SP campaign as well.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?119512-Arma-3-Confirmed-features-info-amp-discussion

Edited February 27, 2013 by Langlet

[zoog 18]

Thanks for the links Langlet, I somehow "missed" that info, nice!

[dr. hladik 231]

Yes, TOH flight model is still planned.

Modifying A2 models should be easy - just adding proper rotorLib config file.

[samb 15]

Thank You very much. That answer means a lot to me. Have a nice day!

[DnA 5143]

Yes, TOH flight model is still planned.

Modifying A2 models should be easy - just adding proper rotorLib config file.

But one caution: we do not yet know we will make our stock helicopters use this flight model. "just adding" a RTD config file is not quite so easy when you want to simulate a specific helicopter (in comparison, we used a physicist for at least one month per helicopter in the past). So, we are trying to make the technology work inside the engine at some point beyond Alpha, but we cannot promise shipping with RTD-enabled helicopters even in Q3 2013. When you know I was the Project Lead for TKOH, I hope you can understand such decisions are not always based on what we want, but what we are able to do in time.

[metalcraze 290]

Even adding such model without making stock choppers work with it will be a start.

[krazikilla 5]

@Hladik: Hope Joris did play some music in the office earlier this day ;)

Regarding to TKOH flyght model: You can get it if you really waaant.

Just take your time, but PLEASE get it in sometime.

Edited February 27, 2013 by KrAziKilla

[Vigil Vindex 64]

It would be interesting to know why the new flight model is not yet added to the alpha, since it is already available in TOH. Is it because of a conflict with the PhysX features?

[krazikilla 5]

It would be interesting to know why the new flight model is not yet added to the alpha, since it is already available in TOH. Is it because of a conflict with the PhysX features?

exactly

Edited February 27, 2013 by KrAziKilla

[nodunit 397]

But one caution: we do not yet know we will make our stock helicopters use this flight model. "just adding" a RTD config file is not quite so easy when you want to simulate a specific helicopter (in comparison, we used a physicist for at least one month per helicopter in the past). So, we are trying to make the technology work inside the engine at some point beyond Alpha, but we cannot promise shipping with RTD-enabled helicopters even in Q3 2013. When you know I was the Project Lead for TKOH, I hope you can understand such decisions are not always based on what we want, but what we are able to do in time.

Thank you for telling us this, it means a lot to the people who really want to see helicopters take on the same challenge in TKOH and I'm sure physX changed the game up a bit. However IF there were pursuits to enhance rotor characteristics does that mean there would be an initiative to differ the characteristics of the coaxial versus traditional designs?

[DnA 5143]

However IF there were pursuits to enhance rotor characteristics does that mean there would be an initiative to differ the characteristics of the coaxial versus traditional designs?

Actually the helicopter we've done all of our experiments on so far is coaxial (as that tech was not developed for TKOH), so yes, we have been looking at that :)

Some of the factors involved:

• Features developed in TKOH do not copy across without further work. TKOH is mostly non-combat, which reduces a lot of design complications.
  
• PhysX and RTD do not conflict necessarily, but they also do not automatically merge. We need to teach them to cooperate and behave ;) Practical example: AI flies a helicopter (this uses the PX-based model), then a player takes over control (this would switch to RTD) and all physical forces need to be correctly transitioned.
  
• As said before: doing a flight model correctly for every type of copter is a lot of work.
  
• Once a (campaign) scenario is designed using a certain flight model, we cannot just swap in another model. It affects balance, difficulty and timings.
  

[nodunit 397]

Woo that is a lot of information to swap out at the flick of a button, I figured TKOH wouldn't port 100% perfectly due to physX 2.0 but I am ecstatic to hear that it has not phased development and that we may see more features such as the pilot to cpg control switch in TKOH, I think that would compliment many modern aircraft for sure.

Even if it doesn't make its way in until the final release, or later in, I'll keep my fingers crossed...the fact that on harder difficulty the helicopter WANTED to crash on its own made the flight very enjoyable in that masochistic way.

Do you think some of the negative characteristics such as getting caught in your own downdraft like in TKOH or rotor overspeeds will be present, is that all part of rotorlib or a separate kit?

Oh yes and one more thing..will we by chance see the 6dof integration as it was in TKOH or do you know/can share with us wether or not we will be staying with the head locked style in A2?

Edited February 27, 2013 by NodUnit

[samb 15]

But one caution: we do not yet know we will make our stock helicopters use this flight model. "just adding" a RTD config file is not quite so easy when you want to simulate a specific helicopter (in comparison, we used a physicist for at least one month per helicopter in the past). So, we are trying to make the technology work inside the engine at some point beyond Alpha, but we cannot promise shipping with RTD-enabled helicopters even in Q3 2013. When you know I was the Project Lead for TKOH, I hope you can understand such decisions are not always based on what we want, but what we are able to do in time.

First of all I'd like to thank You for answering. I am a bit aware of how applying rotorlib was done in TOH (spend a while adding it to other a2 helicopters, not without any succes I might add). Basically is it going to be how it was so far- rotorlib entry in config.bin in addition to xml lookup table linked to it? I am not expecting You to give us accurate FM for any helicopter at all, I believe You have so many other things to take care of (and we have our own Freed Naar who did awesome job adjusting xml for light and medium helicopter, I hope he keeps doing it with other). I am just excited that You seem to support the whole idea. Also could You please elaborate on vortex ring issue? Or is it out of focus at the moment (I actually don't mind it being added no time soon as it generally doesn't happen if You fly properly)? Also I know Fred Naar got a response from BiS regarding integrating his Helicopter Total Realism dll into TOH (and Arma 3 in a long shot). He did not share BiS's answer- do You happen to know anything about that? Once again I really appreciate Your time You put into answering and putting TOH FM in motion for A3.

[jumpinghubert 49]

@DnA

is it possible to get it step by step? Maybe at first for unarmed littlebird as an option, not per default. Then per default, then for a second class of unarmed helis as option, then per default, and so on?

The light heli flight model is my favorite and I want to fly with it in a3, at least in custom scenarios. I think its not too much to expect the integration of existing features in a3.

[4 IN 1 0]

One of the problem I can see is that TOH FM is really not designed for AI to fly if you want the FM to be realistic, which is kind of suck when you know hardcore Flight simmer will hate it to death...

With that said, I'd rather that BI to make sure that the FM and 3rd party config will be supported but free from messing with AI ability to fly the chopper correctly, then we can deal with the human factor ourself.

Edited February 27, 2013 by 4 IN 1

[[evo] dan 79]

Will we also get the fixedwingLIb from them too?

Really excited for the TOH FM, one of the biggest things I am looking forward to, beside physx.

[samb 15]

One of the problem I can see is that TOH FM is really not designed for AI to fly if you want the FM to be realistic, which is kind of suck when you know hardcore Flight simmer will hate it to death...

With that said, I'd rather that BI to make sure that the FM and 3rd party config will be supported but free from messing with AI ability to fly the chopper correctly, then we can deal with the human factor ourself.

I am not sure if I understand You correctly, but You do realise, that AI has no problem flying TOH FM helicopters?

[Guess Who 10]

I am not sure if I understand You correctly, but You do realise, that AI has no problem flying TOH FM helicopters?

AI in TOH is using a simplified flight model.

[samb 15]

It might be, so what's the problem here? Once again AI has no problem flying TOH FM helicopters (as it is according to Guess Who not even using it).

[nodunit 397]

Granted, but AI can calculate things far quicker than we can and by greater numbers, complication or not it would likely run the routines to maintain a stable flight pattern at least to avoid losing control at least in roll and yaw. To a point AI never had issues flying, they had issues seeing tree's as well the dynamics of our own thinking to do some of the tricky and perhaps foolishly risky things we would do such as an emergency extraction dangerously close to an obstacle or a hot LZ, at least not likely without some scripting guidance.

Oh, speaking of rotors, any chance they will shear off TKOH style or will they be the solid geometry we have in A2 that stops us full brake when we fly between some trees.

Ah yes and one last thing..this may be a bit OT since it doesn't pertain to the flight model exactly but in A2 multiplayer there is an issue wherein if you try to chat while flying, the collective zeroes out and sends you plummiting...is there any chance we won't see this in A3? It really is a bit of a coordination destroyer.

Woops, just thought of something else..will the controls also be more like TKOH? In terms of collective for example?

Edited February 28, 2013 by NodUnit

[LeeManatee 4]

why you can't do it simple? using one of 3 flight models for each helicopter class with couple of adjustments

toh flight model is probably the only selling point of arma 3 for me atleast.

[KeyCat 131]

Dan;2305807']

Really excited for the TOH FM' date=' one of the biggest things I am looking forward to, beside physx.[/quote']

+1

Ah yes and one last thing..this may be a bit OT since it doesn't pertain to the flight model exactly but in A2 multiplayer there is an issue wherein if you try to chat while flying, the collective zeroes out and sends you plummiting...is there any chance we won't see this in A3? It really is a bit of a coordination destroyer.

I lost count how many times I crashed into ground due to this "feature". The problem seems to be that the input from joystick collective drops as soon as you press the side/group/etc. chat button, would be nice to see this fixed in A3!

/KC

[LeeManatee 4]

voice chat