Do ArmA Firefights Exsist?

[JetlinerX 1]

Hey everyone-

For 8 years, I have played OFP, ArmA, and ArmA 2, and I've never been disappointed once. However, I have never in my whole time playing been in a firefight that was truly considered a firefight. Tons of my engagements feel like short skirmishes. I have tried countless AI improvements, and still, one faction is able to finish off the other in less than 10 to 20mins. Maybe it's my shitty mission building, but I have recently really craved something new where I am fighting for a while. Not where I have pockets of time to advance on the enemy, and kill them. Time where both sides are considered pinned and in combat. You hear all these real stories about 1 - 12 hour firefights, and while I understand this is a game and we cant obviously make it 100% real, is there anyway to at least make my firefights more scary, and longer?

I feel it really is just my crappy mission making, so what do you guys who have experienced do to make these firefights so amazing?

Hopefully someone can answer me.

~Jet.

[ringoray 1]

Use the DAC script with camps set up to resupply the 2 factions with fresh troops and vehicles. My friends and I usually can play like this non stop for 3 hours sometimes.

[Cards525 10]

@Ringo, true, very true.

If you're looking for something "easier" check out the Flashpoint Mission series, set it up on Utes, I swear I was playing for 2 hours drenched in sweat.

[froggyluv 2136]

I think he means where two squads actually take a long time to kill each other in an engaging manner rather then continuous spawning of new enemies. Though I could be wrong :)

[JetlinerX 1]

Froggy - You are 100% right.

@card - I play (and help dev) the Flashpoint missions ALL THE TIME, so I know all about those. :)

@Ring - I'll have to look into that, never heard of it. I assume it's like Flashpoint, but those are still fun! :)

[soldia 1]

I think the "problem" is that ArmA is still a game. In real life you keep your head down and shoot more inaccurate, having no information where exactly the enemy is etc. In a game, we are more risky as it's not our real life we may loose. The enemy is clearly visible and your aiming is very well most of the time (even with ace).

[JetlinerX 1]

I think that is the problem too.

[2nd ranger 282]

The AI just isn't up to it. They can't take cover like human beings. They've become better at it - leaning out from behind corners and trees and so forth - but their behaviour is still a little erratic in combat, particularly in groups. They don't react to suppressing fire as well as they should. Too often they'll stand up and run into the open, or move to the wrong side of cover. And like Soldia said, everyone can shoot amazingly well compared to real life and you can always see the enemy.

There are some things you can do for the AI in missions, though. Try using enableAttack for groups. It means the group leader won't send guys out on suicidal flanking missions.

If AI squads are wiping each other out too easily, play with their skill levels. I like to use setUnitAbility and/or setSkill array to make them a little less accurate. Some of those commands can also slow their rate of fire.

[JetlinerX 1]

Ill look into those as well. Thanks!

[max power 21]

Well, from the player perspective even, you would do things in the game that you would never do in real life. There are several situations every time I play where I do some really high risk thing and end up killing a handful or a score of AI guys and maybe end up dying at the end, maybe not... but if I was using common sense and self preservation, I would have killed 0 and still been alive. In order to counter that kind of reckless aggression, the AI needs to perform similarly aggressively, to the point where in every engagement the AI sends out a couple of guys on a suicidal death mission to flank your group.

[maturin 12]

A furious firefight, no. But engagements can unfold over long periods time in the Zargabad greenzone, with dispersed groups of enemies working their way through different positions to fire on a compound. Happens a lot in insurgency.

[froggyluv 2136]

Sometimes that type of firefight just pans out though it's almost like luck of the draw.

I remember a squad on squad firefight in Arma 1 using SLX mod in which literally had my squad fighting against an AI squad over a small ridge in the terrain outside Cayo that seemed to last for 30 minutes -all at under 200m. I have no idea how this happened as both of our teams stayed prone pretty much the whole time and when guys stood up to run they were injured but generally not killed. The longer the fight raged on, the more intense and utterly captivating it became with my team eventually winning but with heavy losses.

Funny how an experience like that burns into your memory in a way that most PC firefights never will as this must have been 6 years ago.

[rye1 21]

Typical TVTs can go on for HOURS. For the same amount of space it would take 10 minutes to take from the AI. They have no brain, you can't expect true competition.

[THEBLITZ6794 10]

Is anyone else having trouble seeing the enemy? I often find myself in a squad (ai) where everyone is engaging the enemy and calling out targets and Im laying there wondering where the enemy even is, as bullets fly over my head

Im having the same problem too, otherwise. I think the engagements take place too close. Lack of cover usage certainly plays a role though.

[froggyluv 2136]

Is anyone else having trouble seeing the enemy? I often find myself in a squad (ai) where everyone is engaging the enemy and calling out targets and Im laying there wondering where the enemy even is, as bullets fly over my head

Im having the same problem too, otherwise. I think the engagements take place too close. Lack of cover usage certainly plays a role though.

You know for the longest time I refused to play with those enemy target markers because I thought they were cheap. But now I always use them as they better reflect the ability for a nearby squaddie to keep giving me the general gist of his location rather then trying to figure out that damn clock position. Also the target markers is not fullproof by any means as it follows an assumed trajectory which often is misleading.

For Arma 3 Im hoping for an STHUD+. That being the same visual graph but with added ability to highlight the guy who's talking to better help your situational awareness.

[soldia 1]

AI/AI firefights can be interesting if you are using ACE, ASR_AI and TPWCAS. You have a high skilled AI without the sniper-precision they normally got and a quite good suppression system which affects their skills and accuracy as well. And they keep their heads down. Trying it out in open terrain (airfield on Utes for example), there are some firefights lasting 20-30 min. I have to do this in more difficult terrain as well.

[Tonci87 163]

I´ll try to answer this as good as possible.

1.Lack of Micro terrain

IRL soldiers are able to take cover in a ditch, in a foxhole or something similiar. They pop up to shoot at the enemy and get their head down if they have incoming fire.

Arma lacks such cover positions and such AI behaviour, even if the AI is crouched behind a wall, you will still be able to shoot them in the head. The only way for them to get into full cover is to go prone. Going prone and vice versa takes some time and is not really fluid (I hope this will be different with Arma 3s new animations, especially the ability to raise/lower your head will be very usefull)

2. AI doesn´t care about life

AI is notorious for going out into the open even if the area is covered by MGs and they receive incoming fire.

3. It is quite easy to pinpoint the location of the enemy.

In Arma it is quite easy to tell where the fire is coming from. This is because of the sounds and distant AI units are very visible if they are not prone.

4. If the oposing forces are more or less equal, IRL Firefights usually will end if one side retreats/flees

This will rarely happen in Arma

[max power 21]

I´ll try to answer this as good as possible.

1.2. AI doesn´t care about life

AI is notorious for going out into the open even if the area is covered by MGs and they receive incoming fire.

Neither do players, for that matter.

[THEBLITZ6794 10]

Neither do players, for that matter.

Depends tbh. With no respawn, no leaderboards, serious mindset they will, at least somewhat

Lack of micro terrain is the biggest imo

[delta99 34]

You might be interested in Urban Conquest.

[Zorg_DK 10]

AI/AI firefights can be interesting if you are using ACE, ASR_AI and TPWCAS. You have a high skilled AI without the sniper-precision they normally got and a quite good suppression system which affects their skills and accuracy as well. And they keep their heads down. Trying it out in open terrain (airfield on Utes for example), there are some firefights lasting 20-30 min. I have to do this in more difficult terrain as well.

Yep, excellent ai mods that makes firefights last longer for me, and is more interesting.

[metalcraze 290]

You hear all these real stories about 1 - 12 hour firefights

It doesn't mean it's a non-stop shooting for 1 - 12 hours. Soldiers would've run out of bullets in the 1st hour otherwise.

This is not to say ArmA's firefights cannot be improved to be made longer. Currently ArmA series lack 2 important things that affect that - wind bullet deflection and breathing simulation a la its big brother VBS2. Lack of both of these things makes it way too easy to hit an enemy once you spotted him even at large distances.

Saying that ACE mod improves on this by adding wind which extends firefights noticeably.

Edited January 12, 2013 by metalcraze

[ollem 4]

You're richt Metalcraze: during development testing of tpwcas I several times thought I had found an error, to find out the AI had ran out of bullets. ASR schould help to let the AI search for ammo.

Anyway, tpwcas schould for sure help to increase your firefights duration. Check some of youtube vids which can be found in my signature link or here http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?136304-TPWC-AI-suppression-system

[THEBLITZ6794 10]

ai needs to conserve ammo better. us army recommends m16 operators fire 3-10 shots a minute for suppressing fire

[NoRailgunner 0]

Just search for the bullet shot/hit ratio during the Vietnam and Iraq war. It's the feeling that makes soldiers confident firing their guns to suppress someone with pure firepower and get the enemy into somekind of shock and/or unable to respond/act. ;) BIS AI somehow do have troubles with perception, recognition and reasonable/effective use of tactics/vehicles/weapons. The default AI doesn't have a good type of self-preservation - just fire up some grenades/mortars and watch them standing out in the open or watch AI crew getting out of a tank and instantly trying to kill someone instead of running for cover before the tank explodes....