Steam discussion

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Scary situation with Steam, actually: one day, it may come crashing down in some capacity and the millions of disillusioned c0nsumers will cry out and then be silenced like the ADD victims that they are.

[Tankbuster 1746]

Scary situation with Steam, actually: one day, it may come crashing down in some capacity and the millions of disillusioned c0nsumers will cry out and then be silenced like the ADD victims that they are.

You're right. Steam appeals to the instant gratification generation because of it's delivery method. At the risk of sounding like an old fart, the waiting for the latest game to arrive in the post or the journey to WH Smiths added to the anticipation. That build-up, ultimately led to the wonder and awe of the new game when you finally got to play it.

With Steam, there isn't that enforced anticipation period and that's great if you can't wait, but as the rest of us know, you don't own the product or the media or, in fact, the right to use it at your will. If Steam goes, that's it. No game. Nothing. I was in a thread recently where a user complained bitterly he had had to wait 3 hours for his download. He just didn't have the patience to wait for it.

That's why I almost never use Steam. This 'fragility' of ownership is too much of a risk for me. Sprocket is a viable alternative for at least, one series of games. The download is nearly as quick as Steam, yet you get a bunch of files that you burn off to DVD and you have a hard copy of the game.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

And there's nothing like a physical (copy) manifestation of an object, which can be used anytime, anywhere, provided the "copy-protection" is reasonable and doesn't prevent the person from utilising it in the capacity as advertised without third parties involved. BIS "copy-protection" is spot on: you can't really play the game and enjoy it, if you sail the Seven Seas of Piratebay.

I have Operation Arrowhead installation folder with 7 files in it somewhere on my hard drive - "digital download", though nothing apart from the CD-KEY is required.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

...millions of disillusioned c0nsumers will cry out and then be silenced like the ADD victims that they are.

You're right. Steam appeals to the instant gratification generation because of it's delivery method.

Seriously? You're going to put every Steam customer into disillusioned, disorder ridden or impatient brat basket?

Physical stores are slowly heading toward extinction due to the internet speeds and it's availability and giving way to digital distribution, be it Steam, Origin, whatever. Unless we as a society manage to screw something up royally, it's the future.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Sniperwolf572

[Tankbuster 1746]

Seriously? You're going to put every Steam customer into disillusioned, disorder ridden or impatient brat basket?

That's not what I said. I said it appeals to the instant gratification generation.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

That's not what I said. I said it appeals to the instant gratification generation.

Came across that way to me considering you agreed with the post above you who does say that. Apologies.

There's always the perception that the customers are the small subset of those who are most vocal/visible and their traits are assigned to everyone indiscriminately. I'm sure you can see it even on these forums. For what it's worth, you can also see it in this thread. Majority of posts are by people who consider Steam to be the ultimate evil.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Physical stores are slowly heading toward extinction due to the internet speeds and it's availability and giving way to digital distribution, be it Steam, Origin, whatever. Unless we as a society manage to screw something up royally, it's the future.

That's great! But if I can't have access to whatever property I purchase without having to resort to third parties, then I won't be doing business with them, or anyone else who indulges in this practice.

If, on the other hand, the customers of Steam define their payment as a subscription - a renting fee, then I don't see a problem.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

...

If, on the other hand, the customers of Steam define their payment as a subscription - a renting fee, then I don't see a problem.

As said previously, Steam defines the products you have access to through it's service as a subscription/license, even before the updated EULA was in effect.

[Tankbuster 1746]

Came across that way to me considering you agreed with the post above you who does say that. Apologies.

There's always the perception that the customers are the small subset of those who are most vocal/visible and their traits are assigned to everyone indiscriminately. I'm sure you can see it even on these forums. For what it's worth, you can also see it in this thread. Majority of posts are by people who consider Steam to be the ultimate evil.

Absolutely. That's why I was careful with my words. Apology accepted. :)

It's a property of the internet that the loudest are assumed to be the most numerous. This is rarely the case.

For the record, I don't consider Steam to be evil, but I do think that it is designed to appeal to a group of users, some of which might be less likely to look at the small print and consider the implications of obtaining software in this way. Evil? No. Good business? Definitely. Best option for me? Absolutely not.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

For the record, I don't consider Steam to be evil, but I do think that it is designed to appeal to a group of users, some of which might be less likely to look at the small print and consider the implications of obtaining software in this way. Evil? No. Good business? Definitely. Best option for me? Absolutely not.

You don't believe that Steam is the thing for you, I respect that.

Although I can't agree with you on your assessment of the design bit. How many license agreements do you read for every bit of software you buy/install? They're not the true small print saying "*yeah, we're lying about our product" so they don't get in trouble of false advertising.

There are much worse and effective ways of swindling people for their money than establishing a proper worldwide distribution service.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

As said previously, Steam defines the products you have access to through it's service as a subscription/license, even before the updated EULA was in effect.

And as I said, the disillusioned customers don't regard it as such. They think they "own" that library of games, to which they won't have access to if Steam ceases to exist tomorrow.

[dmarkwick 261]

There is a definite control element though. I have Steam installed for exactly one reason - Skyrim. However, as Skyrim worked out-of-the-box without Steam needed aside from the initial installation, I have not fired up Steam since. I run Skyrim from it's exe.

But, the very first fix Steam did was to remove this independence, so if I ever update Skyrim, then I need to run Steam every time. Given that Steam had already done it's job - made sure I am a real paying customer - why insist that it needs to be run? Continued control.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

There is a definite control element though. I have Steam installed for exactly one reason - Skyrim. However, as Skyrim worked out-of-the-box without Steam needed aside from the initial installation, I have not fired up Steam since. I run Skyrim from it's exe.

But, the very first fix Steam did was to remove this independence, so if I ever update Skyrim, then I need to run Steam every time. Given that Steam had already done it's job - made sure I am a real paying customer - why insist that it needs to be run? Continued control.

Steam is, amongst other things, a potential DRM solution for developers/publishers. Your thing with Skyrim happened because developers "fixed" it, not Valve. If I remember correctly, with the first patch, they integrated it into SteamWorks and the Steam Workshop.

This isn't a global thing, for example, BI doesn't have this kind of protection on ArmA (All of them, probably other BI titles aswell) and off the top of my head, neither does Relic's Company of Heroes and I'm sure there are other publishers that do the same.

[Baff1 0]

Seriously? You're going to put every Steam customer into disillusioned, disorder ridden or impatient brat basket?

Physical stores are slowly heading toward extinction due to the internet speeds and it's availability and giving way to digital distribution, be it Steam, Origin, whatever. Unless we as a society manage to screw something up royally, it's the future.

It's a future that is welcome to leave me behind.

There are certian games that lend themselves well to online distribution.

Those games that offer a service that cannot be provided by the player domestically.

A Planetside or a World of Warcraft server for example.

But if all your game is, is a copy of a console game, which needs a disc to run.... then a disc is the best format for it.

Or if all the hardware resources it requires are resources I already own for myself...

Mail order discs are fine with me. I have no desire to physically visit a shopping centre. (Although if I am in a shopping centre I do sometimes look out for an impulse buy).

If I have to adopt Steam or buy a console to play that kind of game, if those are my only choices, then I am going to either buy a console or stop playing those types of game.

As I get older the heady desire to "must have" the very latest PC title everytime is not what it was.

Most games out there are not must buy titles for me but instead mediocre ums and arrs buys.

They always have been in truth, but these days it seems even more so.

If any of these games are Steam dependant, I typically don't buy it.

Why would I? Experience already tells me that I don't use any of my existing Steam games because of Steam.

So for my money Steam and Origin are the death of PC gaming.

The point where it stopped being fun and started to become a hassle.

Ultimately, the games just aren't that good and operating them that way makes them a worse experience than they could be.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Baff1

[Sniperwolf572 758]

@Baff1:

Of course, that's your choice. I'm not going to be shoving digital distribution down your throat. I haven't used a CD/DVD/Blu-ray/whatever in quite a while, because these days I consider them a hassle. To each his own I guess.

And I agree, disc distribution of anything tied to Steam or any other digital distributor/DRM is a hassle and probably unnecessary. They might as well just sell CD-keys for you to redeem or you could just buy it online in the first place. Maybe there's a place for it for those with harsh bandwidth caps or whatever.

On the other hand, I doubt discs are going to be mainstay of the consoles either. Makers of the next-gen consoles are already considering omitting the hardware (which could lower the prices of the console, make them more compact) needed to read it. Plus you already have established digital distribution methods on consoles. I give disc drives in consoles maybe a possibility of appearing in the next gen if the developers take the conservative route, but the one after I can't see them present.

[h - 169]

Steam is, amongst other things, a potential DRM solution for developers/publishers.

And just like any other DRM it's completely useless and pointless, steam games get cracked just as fast as any other DRM this far.

At least games that require Steam in some way, not sure how it is with the SteamWorks etc stuff that has never interested me one bit. I use steam for the play-once and forget games..

Had a quite funny moment with Steam just now, trying to launch a game (demo) I got a error message saying their servers are too busy to handle my request :p

[Sniperwolf572 758]

And just like any other DRM it's completely useless and pointless, steam games get cracked just as fast as any other DRM this far.

Aye, don't get me wrong, down with any kind of DRM. But that's a discussion for another place.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Sniperwolf572

[Baff1 0]

And just like any other DRM it's completely useless and pointless, steam games get cracked just as fast as any other DRM this far.

At least games that require Steam in some way, not sure how it is with the SteamWorks etc stuff that has never interested me one bit. I use steam for the play-once and forget games..

Had a quite funny moment with Steam just now, trying to launch a game (demo) I got a error message saying their servers are too busy to handle my request :p

It's not useless and pointless.

it's greedy and money grabbing.

There are many games that I would pay for to play on my LAN.

But I would not pay for them twice to play on my LAN.

In the old days a company that was worried about piracy, say Red Storm/Ubisoft or Blizzard would restrict their games with a DRM so that you still needed a disc on the network/server to play.

One disc between as many computers you own was all you needed.

In this way they could DRM their games against Piracy whilst still allowing legitemate purchasers to use their games (uncracked) for their own purposes.

But modern greedy games companies want a disc in every drive to play.

And modern DRMs provide greedy companies with the means to do this.

So a cheap game that plays co-op on my LAN would be worth my buying, but a cheap game that requires me to buy another 1-5 copies to play on co-op on my LAN is not a cheap game at all.

It's prohibitively expensive.

The death of LAN gaming.

So pretty much any game that requires Steam is a rip off game.

Not because Steam forces them to operate in this way, but because that is the rip off model Steam considers to be fair and normal for it's DRM.

Because even if I crack a Steam game, I still can't play a LAN game with it, even if it is advertised as such I can't.

And with LAN gaming as my primary intrest.... there is no more intrest.

I simply have no reason to buy or even pirate such games.

The harsh reality of life is this. My business isn't wanted any longer.

I used to be the type of gamer companies wished to sell products too, and now I am not.

Now I'm the spreadsheet error. The kind of gamer who if ignored, more sales can be made elsewhere. Either to those who will pay for multiple copies of the same game, or to would be pirates for whom a sucessful DRM is the reason they bought the game.

So the more and more successful online gaming DRM's/distributors have become, the less and less intresting video gaming has become.

To the point now where it is barely intresting to me at all. Where I am more likely to surf the net or watch a movie than I am to launch a game.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Baff1

[MrBump 10]

What nonsense, you're posting on the forum of one of those "modern greedy games companies", try running two copies of a non-Steam single license Arma 2 game on a LAN and see what happens. This has nothing to do with Steam, but modern game licenses.

[dmarkwick 261]

It's not useless and pointless.

it's greedy and money grabbing.

There are many games that I would pay for to play on my LAN.

But I would not pay for them twice to play on my LAN.

In the old days a company that was worried about piracy, say Red Storm/Ubisoft or Blizzard would restrict their games with a DRM so that you still needed a disc on the network/server to play.

One disc between as many computers you own was all you needed.

In this way they could DRM their games against Piracy whilst still allowing legitemate purchasers to use their games (uncracked) for their own purposes.

But modern greedy games companies want a disc in every drive to play.

And modern DRMs provide greedy companies with the means to do this.

So a cheap game that plays co-op on my LAN would be worth my buying, but a cheap game that requires me to buy another 1-5 copies to play on co-op on my LAN is not a cheap game at all.

It's prohibitively expensive.

The death of LAN gaming.

I don't think one license per player is at all unusual, in fact I think it's pretty much standard. And also, I agree with the principle. I may not like Steam for other reasons, but as far as this particular issue goes I think they have a reasonable solution. You can install your Steam game on as many computers as you like yes? But only one instance is permitted at a time yes? I don't know how you would solve the issue of running more than one license of a game from the same Steam account though (so you could invite a friend over & both play on a LAN) I'd guess you might need two Steam accounts. But, that gets away from the point of your post, which I don't believe is Steam-specific and is in fact standard practice.

[Tankbuster 1746]

So a cheap game that plays co-op on my LAN would be worth my buying, but a cheap game that requires me to buy another 1-5 copies to play on co-op on my LAN is not a cheap game at all.

It's prohibitively expensive.

Eh? You object to all of your mates having to buy a copy of a game when you get together for a LAN? You want to pay just once between you?

You're the reason we have DRM in the first place.

[jblackrupert 14]

Well, once upon a time it was allowed to have 1 copy of a game and play together on several computers over LAN.

The appearance of broadband connections and services like Himachi forced companies to stop allowing that.

Back in the "Old days" of gaming everyone and their dog didn't have a computer, let alone several computers available to them

to take advantage of the situtation.

Piracy was not the reason behind it. Cheap computers and broadband connections were.

Edited September 2, 2012 by jblackrupert

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Eh? You object to all of your mates having to buy a copy of a game when you get together for a LAN? You want to pay just once between you?

You're the reason we have DRM in the first place.

Yep, that point is totally not on topic. One copy for LAN? Baff, is that some form of communism: do you guys wire yourself into a Borg-machine and feel the same things, think the same thoughts to justify one copy per group? :D :D :D

---------- Post added at 15:28 ---------- Previous post was at 15:26 ----------

Well, once upon a time it was allowed to have 1 copy of a game and play together on several computers over LAN.

I don't remember whether Quake II had a cd key, but it's called a KEY for a reason. Like if one buys a car, there's a personalised key to operate it (lawfully). Private property and all.

[krycek 349]

I have about 15 games on my Steam acc,hate the thing,but it's one of the few DRM services that has an offline mode(when it works).It is actually the only compromise I did regarding this always-on trend that seems to grow everywhere(need some more storage use cloud,save a few files use dropbox etc).Like always when something it's not on your pc you don't have any control over it,when you go "cloud" you put your work,media and other stuff into other hands.It's frankly worrying that so many people accept it like some kind of cool feature.

Now regarding Steam,I'll use it,I realize I enforce the rows of the "cloud" generation a bit,don't like it and I'm aware I don't actually own the games there.Still like I said it's the only compromise,for example I noticed every game company now wants to have it's own DRM service like Ubi Uplay and EA Origin.

Perhaps some people will embrace using multiple cloud-like services,I for one couldn't give a crap about their products if they imagine I'm gonna install gazillion DRM services on my pc.That's why I don't have or plan to have ME3,BF3,Anno 2070,Crysis 3 and so on.

[jblackrupert 14]

I don't remember whether Quake II had a cd key, but it's called a KEY for a reason. Like if one buys a car, there's a personalised key to operate it (lawfully). Private property and all.

CD key checks were not always required for LAN play for all games.

Like I said, back then LAN gaming was not something that was widespread and multiple computers in the home were very very rare

so gaming companies allowed LAN play on several systems with 1 copy of a game because only a extremely small minority of people could take advantage of it

the only time it was required to have multiple copies was when you were charging for play at something like a Web Cafe.

Even then it was still a trust system if you were running a business with games then you were expected to buy multiple copies or even pay for a special licence

there wasn't always something preventing you from doing it anyways with them.

On the subject of Digital distribution like Steam..... sooner or later the days of paper manuals is going to be numbered

a few years from now people will be telling newer gamers, ya back in the OLD DAYS we had a manual that came in a booklet

and we had fancy thingamajigs called DVD cases with covers!!!..