CQB??

[metalcraze 290]

Indeed, melee would be much better. Also good for stealthy sneaking up on people and not making too much noise killing them. A quick lethal stab to silence a guard, and your team moves in to capture Lopotev/Aziz/Osama bin Laden.

How about an option to hit someone with the butt of your gun to knock them unconcious and then capture them.

Hold on there guys... This isn't a hollywood movie

Knocking unconscious and then capturing him - lol dude you should seriously stop watching hollywood movies. Knocking someone unconscious means a head trauma and a month in a hospital. And I'm not sure your command will be happy with HVT not being able to tell them anything useful for a long time.

As for knives - this has been discussed so many times - they are anything but silent and insta-lethal. They are there to give you 0.001% chance of survival once you are out of ammo for your rifle and a handgun or can't otherwise engage with them.

Edited July 27, 2012 by metalcraze

[Ekko 1]

Hold on there guys... This isn't a hollywood movie

Knocking unconscious and then capturing him - lol dude you should seriously stop watching hollywood movies. Knocking someone unconscious means a head trauma and a month in a hospital. And I'm not sure your command will be happy with HVT not being able to tell them anything useful for a long time.

As for knives - this has been discussed so many times - they are anything but silent and lethal. They are there to give you 0.001% chance of survival once you are out of ammo for your rifle and a handgun or can't otherwise engage with them.

Metalcraze, you surely can't be serious!

Knocking someone unconscious is possible without causing them serious head trauma, and the they would be able to answer questions for that one week they are in a hospital without any problems(maybe not the first day though!). People do this is war, when they are out of ammo, can't reach or find ther knife, or when they don't want to kill someone. So this would be a great feature for arma 3! lets move on!

Now this is very I get cranky!

As with firearms, targeting the central nervous system—the brain and spinal cord—with a knife is an effective and virtually instantaneous method of incapacitating an attacker or target. The problem is that hitting such targets in the midst of a stand-up fight is very difficult. This means that this would be a perfect way to disable someone, and not only is it dangerous but also very silent! Do you think there is this loud sound effect when you stab someone? Well there isn't, and do you think the target would be able to make much sound when you stab them in the spinal cord, well someone guessed it, NO! This feature would be great for arma 3 since it is in fact used in war, it's silent and its lethal. End of story.

[PuFu 4599]

1. regarding knocking someone out, i sort of agree with you. You can know someone's lights out without provoking serious head injury, and gives you enough time to tie him up and gag him. Silent, yes, if you compare it to a gunshot. Safe and precise? Hardly. Not everyone go to sleep in the same manner.

2. regarding stabbing: it all depends on where you stab someone. It is kind of hard to stab someone in the spinal cord when the said someone has his armor on. What you fail to understand is that, not matter how you put it, the chances you actually get close enough to the lad and then perfectly and silently kill the poor sod is close to nil. No one in his right mind would actually risk an operation (be it SF or not) with such a stunt.

case of point:

a) the igame use would be fairly limited

b) the devs already LOL-ed on a previous topic on this very subject.

i do agree there should be some hidden config in allowing modders to get this in though.

Edited July 27, 2012 by PuFu

[froggyluv 2135]

Wasn't rifle butt stroke (lol) in OFP? In any case, it's hard to get that type of melee right in a game built for mid-range firefights. Knocking someone out certainly doesn't always involve hospitlization or major head trauma -theres one every night in MMA and chokes (rear naked and guillotine) are known by just about every serviceman taking basic HTH these days - will incapacitate anyone not trained to defend in mere seconds.

That said, lets get more realistic CQB firefights before attempting melee.

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

inflicting a mortal wound on a person is hard enough when they are not fighting back.. add armor and their actions to avoid getting stabbed, and getting an insta-kill is near impossible. no knife wound is insta-kill with the exception being the spine at the back of the neck. knocking someone out with your rifle stock is possible, but thats if they don't block the strike with their arms/weapon. being able to knock someone to the ground is more common, and would give you a window of opportunity to finish them off or disarm them(which opens the way to possibly capturing them). save the knifes for opening your MREs and scraping caked mud off your boots.

[instagoat 133]

Dynamo;2196278']...no knife wound is insta-kill with the exception being the spine at the back of the neck...

Even a stab into the spine will likely just paralyse them, unless it´s dead on the first time. People are -tough-. And usually, they fight back, so getting that perfect hit is difficult, especially with clothes in the way.

I don´t see how a melee option would be useful. I´ve never managed to sneak up on somebody so close that I could´ve knifed them. Try doing that in real life, tell somebody to stand there and say when they first notice you. Try it with them being allowed to look around, and with them only allowed to stare ahead. Even at night, it is -supremely- difficult to get close enough to somebody, with all that gear on, to knife them. And if you do get close, it probably was because the other guy was really distracted (thinking the blackhawk down movie here, where the delta force guys strangle the SPG gunner.).

I´m with the motion to focus on proper CQB firefights and AI behaviour, before attempting to put stuff into the game that´s not even going to be used 99% of the time anyway.

[igneous01 19]

need to make sure theres alot of nodes included inside houses and buildings, currently the only places ai move to inside buildings are the predetermined building positions, and they cant fight from these places either, when they move from one position to another, they are sometimes forced to walk standing up and unable to shoot until they get to the next node. More nodes and better algorithm for nodes at different heights (remember the pathfinding problem over bridges in A1 and in Chernarus?) would resolve alot of issues in CQB, and probably wouldn't need to use building positions anymore (they are not really useful anyway)

[metalcraze 290]

2. regarding stabbing: it all depends on where you stab someone. It is kind of hard to stab someone in the spinal cord when the said someone has his armor on. What you fail to understand is that, not matter how you put it, the chances you actually get close enough to the lad and then perfectly and silently kill the poor sod is close to nil. No one in his right mind would actually risk an operation (be it SF or not) with such a stunt.

Dude I've been saying "there's a reason why specops carry guns in their hands and not knives when they storm compounds" like all the time :D

b) the devs already LOL-ed on a previous topic on this very subject.

I think Jay Crowe even made a snarky comment about this in one of the presentations.

Also yes you can hit someone hard without causing the head trauma but that will disorient him and buy you not much time if anything. Unconsciousness usually means a pain shock and to cause it you need to hit someone in the head really hard - so yeah a head trauma is a real possibility under such conditions. I find it funny how in Hollywood movies when it's the hammer that is used to hit someone in the head - it's always death, but when it's a stock of the weapon - it's equal to being really drunk and waking up a few hours later with a headache :D

[rye1 21]

Dude I've been saying "there's a reason why specops carry guns in their hands and not knives when they storm compounds" like all the time :D

So fighting back with your own logic, what is the reason to carry a knife? No more sarcastic statements. There's plenty of picture images of SF with knives and knife sheaths when clearing compounds, when entering rooms; to be logical means you're not going to walk in with one in your hand but to be tactically conscious for CQC you are going to have a back-up ready in a selected gear position.

USAF EST School's teach the use of melee, so does every other Infantry school out there and ones more focused as a unit on CQC will gradually teach greater principles and tactics around it. "We where taught when entering a doorway if someone is directly in front of you is to punch that person or riflebutt that person in the face so they go down and don't impede the team." - Quote from a dude who went to USAF EST School and FLETC. You have to learn some amount of pain-compliance techniques, take-downs and ways of resolving a problem without the use of your firearm when the situation won't allow. At the end of the day situation dictates, not your opinion on if it is used or not.

@Igneous01 Fully agreed.

EDIT:

To silence the topic.

In Arma - NO! Too much crap to fiddle with. Years of work for little.

In reality - YES! Quit moaning, it happens.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Rye

[Tonci87 163]

http://www.sparkcaster.com/demotivational/images/tactical%20facepalm.jpg

So fighting back with your own logic, what is the reason to carry a knife? No more sarcastic statements. There's plenty of picture images of SF with knives and knife sheaths when clearing compounds, when entering rooms; to be logical means you're not going to walk in with one in your hand but to be tactically conscious for CQC you are going to have a back-up ready in a selected gear position.

USAF EST School's teach the use of melee, so does every other Infantry school out there and ones more focused as a unit on CQC will gradually teach greater principles and tactics around it. "We where taught when entering a doorway if someone is directly in front of you is to punch that person or riflebutt that person in the face so they go down and don't impede the team." - Quote from a dude who went to USAF EST School and FLETC. You have to learn some amount of pain-compliance techniques, take-downs and ways of resolving a problem without the use of your firearm when the situation won't allow. At the end of the day situation dictates, not your opinion on if it is used or not.

@Igneous01 Fully agreed.

EDIT:

To silence the topic.

In Arma - NO! Too much crap to fiddle with. Years of work for little.

In reality - YES! Quit moaning, it happens.

I LoLed on that quote. F you go into a room and there is a dude in front of you, then you simply pull the trigger. Much more reliable and faster than hitting him with your rifle...

And yes People are really really tough, especially when pumped with adrenalin.

I've been hit by a car while driving to work with my bike and wasn't unconcious. In fact if I didn't knew that it is best to stay on the ground because of possible injuries to your neck I would have beaten the living crap out of the car driver, regardless of several broken bones.

[rye1 21]

Right but that's with a facepunch to reality:- Unit SOP, ROE, stealth vs dynamic entry. You may jam; I was fighting off comments of "Not used in weality cos' in weality peoples grow trees and hug each other" and so on. People keep dragging these topics down with this crap.

AA3 simulates using the buttstock to good advantage, it takes some good swipes to take someone down.

It's not going to happen in A3 so meh.

P.S. Have a read: http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=10229 ...

[ProfTournesol 956]

i do agree there should be some hidden config in allowing modders to get this in though.

^This

[chortles 263]

In Arma - NO! Too much crap to fiddle with. Years of work for little.

In reality - YES! Quit moaning, it happens.

This makes sense to me... for ARMA purposes, if I'm concerned about running out of ammo during a room entry, I'll try to make a reload before entering... once I'm in the room though, if I can't suddenly brandish a knife then I'm pulling the trigger, and I'm not okay with clunky/"floaty" controls meant for long-range shooting outdoors... and if that means that the gunplay indoors ends up more like a conventional shooter, then in all seriousness I say bring on the twitch shooter! ;)

(That is to say, I want ARMA 3 gunplay to be based off of what we saw at E3 2012 and not regress to ARMA 2 because "oh no, lack of resources"... that's right, I referred to ARMA 2 small arms controlling as regressive.)

[metalcraze 290]

So fighting back with your own logic, what is the reason to carry a knife?

Previously on CQB:

They are there to give you 0.001% chance of survival once you are out of ammo for your rifle and a handgun or can't otherwise engage with them.

Ever heard of the term "last resort"?

There's plenty of picture images of SF with knives and knife sheaths when clearing compounds, when entering rooms; to be logical means you're not going to walk in with one in your hand but to be tactically conscious for CQC you are going to have a back-up ready in a selected gear position.

Oh man I want to see those pictures of SF running with knives at enemies armed with AKs. That will be a sight to behold :D

USAF EST School's teach the use of melee, so does every other Infantry school out there and ones more focused as a unit on CQC will gradually teach greater principles and tactics around it.

Anything that gives you 0.001% more chances of survival man. But knife is not a primary stealth weapon. You seriously need to stop watching hollywood movies, they cloud your view of reality with fiction.

Do you really think that trying to approach an enemy (which is already a fatal decision, a lone blind and deaf guard in the bushes at night casually waiting for someone to come from behind is a hollywood fairytale), reaching for your knife then trying to hit an enemy with a knife so he will insta-die (which will not happen) without pulling a trigger on his very loud AK or otherwise making noise and without his buddies not spotting you do that is much more effective than an MP5 headshot from a safe distance?

I really want to know.

Edited July 28, 2012 by metalcraze

[dmarkwick 261]

Stealth attack with knives :) cute :D Soldiers will carry a knife simply because it's a great tool. Not to kill someone with. If they end up using a knife to kill someone - something is terribly terribly wrong and FUBAR. OK so stealth knife killing was fun and tense in Armed & Dangerous, but it's pretty much useless in a dynamic environment.

But, you know. If it makes it into the game, no biggie to me :)

[becubed 24]

P.S. Have a read: http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=10229 ...

I don't know whether WW2 Russia is a good comparison to current day, especially considering the number of shovel attacks.:D

[rye1 21]

@Chortles: That's a tactical reload, I understand the principles but you need to pick up the slack when it goes wrong is what I'm saying. Pull the trigger all you want when it's jammed. Then you weigh up the situation; some of the possibilities are to go to melee. You have options during that event, if you don't open your mind to them then you stumble when you encounter them. Thanks for the comment.

@becubed: Right because reports from WW2 haven't affected the way we train or conduct ourselves? Tricks of the trade are still passed down and it's a good comparison for possible future world wars in the might and might not, the should and should not and the 'never happens' to more common occurrence. They still teach shovel attacks, it's quite a cultural link for them and they still use reports as references to back-up their theories to silent sentry removal and so on; it just needs the right setting.

If you want closer to the times, modern use of the bayonet, knife or another melee weapon then research it. Navy SEAL kills Pirate with knife, US soldier kills insurgent in Fallujah with knife, Gurkha kills Taliban with khukri and on and on. It's a rare event but one trained upon and in reality used, to say the average engagement distance in Afghanistan is 500 meters then of course, it's a rarer event but again look it up and maybe research some combatives manuals.

For instance we have the "melee knockdown" in ACE but it is useless because it is not conducted with mobility, it is slow and it is static -- other games have better examples. Thanks for the comment.

@Metalcraze: You get the longest reply for least understanding. Someone mentions a knife, you mention realism in a sarcastic way with no real back-up to your quotes as "fact". You either don't read full sentences or there is a language or mental block because you seem to ignore simple facts of this world. A knife can be used as a back-up weapon and it is a choice for Close Quarters work: FACT.

No one said using a primary as a melee weapon, your reply proves your ignorance and the fact you jump the gun to what you think is right.

Straight away you're pushing it to a stealth situation. Well yes, it can be used in a stealth situation but of course there are many triggers for compromise and it is a risk that may outweigh the benefits. You weigh these facts up on the ground and the operator makes that decision. In a dynamic situation in CQ you may come across happenings where a knife will perform better, be more effective, than a ballistic weapon if the ballistic weapon is rendered inappropriate to the situation OR inoperable; for instance a jam, unholster pistol is <21 foot rule or less -- too close, in grappling range to the contact, limited space to move, so on.

"The three basic options upon encountering a resistant opponent taught are:

Option One, disengage to regain projectile weapon range

Option Two, gain a controlling position and utilize a secondary weapon

Option Three, close the distance and gain control to finish the fight.

...

There are several reasons that the combatives course is taught:

To educate soldiers on how to protect themselves against threats without using their firearms

To provide possibilities for a non-lethal response to situations on the battlefield

To instill the 'warrior instinct' to provide the necessary aggression to meet the enemy unflinchingly"

Line Combatives: http://www.linecombatives.com/TheSystem.html

tcPYGfMAujo

Now imagine: A room, an alley or a boat; somewhere condensed. A jam, a reload, a fumble; your primary does not work or is inappropriate. Limited movement space, a threat close to you. Now what? :j: What would you do metalcraze? Haven't you gone to any martial arts lessons?

@DMarkwick: Yes, a multi-tool; as said with the shovel too. There are such things as combat-utility weaponry... Well then it's FUBAR because they, as in the military, already have. If you read a few articles or research into you find out why; somethings are an impulsive response when you're on the back-end. It's also a great psychic disincentive.

I'm not trying to put anyone's opinion down here I just think metalcraze is far from wrong and likes to stir up topics; he mentions realism this then you wouldn't do that with no real referencing or what leads me to believe he hasn't a clue about the subject. I'm here to put him down, no one else. I also wanted this conversation ended about this crap and brought back to ARMA because we won't see melee in Arma and CQC has a long way to go within Arma. Thanks for your time.

[metalcraze 290]

n a dynamic situation in CQ you may come across happenings where a knife will perform better, be more effective, than a ballistic weapon if the ballistic weapon is rendered inappropriate to the situation OR inoperable; for instance a jam, unholster pistol is <21 foot rule or less -- too close, in grappling range to the contact, limited space to move, so on.

Why do you repeat to me what I wrote you in my previous reply?

Am I really the one who doesn't read?

[rye1 21]

As stated based on your reply it occurred to me that you either did not read the sentences properly, did not fully understand them or chose to ignore them even though they were key points to your statements, hence repeating. I've given you the rope, it's your funeral in this debate.

[becubed 24]

@Chortles:

@becubed: Right because reports from WW2 haven't affected the way we train or conduct ourselves? Tricks of the trade are still passed down and it's a good comparison for possible future world wars in the might and might not, the should and should not and the 'never happens' to more common occurrence. They still teach shovel attacks, it's quite a cultural link for them and they still use reports as references to back-up their theories to silent sentry removal and so on; it just needs the right setting.

If you want closer to the times, modern use of the bayonet, knife or another melee weapon then research it. Navy SEAL kills Pirate with knife, US soldier kills insurgent in Fallujah with knife, Gurkha kills Taliban with khukri and on and on. It's a rare event but one trained upon and in reality used, to say the average engagement distance in Afghanistan is 500 meters then of course, it's a rarer event but again look it up and maybe research some combatives manuals.

For instance we have the "melee knockdown" in ACE but it is useless because it is not conducted with mobility, it is slow and it is static -- other games have better examples. Thanks for the comment.

Not saying it doesn't happen just that it definately falls into the less than one percenter case. With the Russian info I just feel that it would weigh more heavily toward close engagement than modern times given their doctrine of move forward or be shot by your own side. :)

Now "knockdown" is something I could get behind, the number of times I get stuck by a civilian in a doorway who wont move. Being able to shove them out of the way would be a godsend.

[dmarkwick 261]

@DMarkwick: Yes, a multi-tool; as said with the shovel too. There are such things as combat-utility weaponry... Well then it's FUBAR because they, as in the military, already have. If you read a few articles or research into you find out why; somethings are an impulsive response when you're on the back-end. It's also a great psychic disincentive.

Well I did rather dismiss the idea unfairly :) but I think we can all agree that the close-in, visceral processing of ArmA really needs to improve a lot for any kind of non-firearm toolwork to be viable. ArmA is great at mid-range battlefield simulation, not so great at other ends of that scale i.e. the flight-sim range or the CQB range. Of the two I would prefer the CQB range to be improved I guess :)

Now "knockdown" is something I could get behind, the number of times I get stuck by a civilian in a doorway who wont move. Being able to shove them out of the way would be a godsend.

Assassin's Creed has a great little feature of pushing aside entities. Would be nice to see something like that implemented however as mentioned a lot of work needs to be done first to make it necessary/possible.

[froggyluv 2135]

I don't know whether WW2 Russia is a good comparison to current day, especially considering the number of shovel attacks.:D

Lol, this reminds me of the time I was playing Evolution SP for Arma1 using SLX mod. I had finally gotten enough kills to recruit an AI buddy and as we were trying to stealthfully clean Parasio I lost track of him until I found 2 Opfor beating him to death with shovels as he was screaming -was both hilarious and shockingly brutal to witness but I'll never forget it :)

[pd3 25]

Stealth attack with knives :) cute :D Soldiers will carry a knife simply because it's a great tool. Not to kill someone with. If they end up using a knife to kill someone - something is terribly terribly wrong and FUBAR. OK so stealth knife killing was fun and tense in Armed & Dangerous, but it's pretty much useless in a dynamic environment.

But, you know. If it makes it into the game, no biggie to me :)

Incidentally I did get into a situation where I was playing SP flashpoint on Lingor and I ended up on an island that I had to swim off of.

I lost my rifle, and I had only a pistol with three magazines after all was said and done, and no sooner had I made it ashore a platoon of insurgents spotted me and started shooting.

I barely made it to the bushes, I was able to return fire, although they were out of my effective range and had to rely on some good fortune allowing me to either escape or avoid getting shot long enough to kill one of them and get their weapon.

I killed a few of them before I had run out of ammunition, and lo and behold there was one left, who crested the hill by the shore and was moving in my direction, yet they didn't seem to be aware of my position.

I was lucky to have had a grenade that made short work of him, otherwise it would have been very likely that if he hadn't have killed me, another platoon I met up with later on would have, what with no bullets and all.

In that particular circumstance, it would have been interesting to have some kind of close quarters disarming system, or something like that. However I could just as easily chalk my misfortune up to the fortunes of war, and started over.

I still generally think it won't be implemented, but I could see its application on rare occasions being helpful.

[chortles 263]

Well I did rather dismiss the idea unfairly :) but I think we can all agree that the close-in, visceral processing of ArmA really needs to improve a lot for any kind of non-firearm toolwork to be viable. ArmA is great at mid-range battlefield simulation, not so great at other ends of that scale i.e. the flight-sim range or the CQB range. Of the two I would prefer the CQB range to be improved I guess :)

Same here... after all, infantry sim first. ;) But personally, I'd say that the "close-in, visceral processing" needs to improve for close quarters, period. As Rye said, the ACE melee knockdown "is not conducted with mobility, it is slow and it is static"... that feels/sounds like ARMA 2 infantry! SMK Animations was a step in the right direction in ARMA 2 (although amusingly, its sprint has the player stumble to a realistic halt unlike the ARMA 2 sprint), and so far both the tightness of the shooting at E3 2012 and the tactical pace look like steps in the right direction for ARMA 3... so at least I have reason to be optimistic on this front. :)

Assassin's Creed has a great little feature of pushing aside entities. Would be nice to see something like that implemented however as mentioned a lot of work needs to be done first to make it necessary/possible.

Like "AAA" collision detection? :p Note though that the way that feature works, the Assassin (or Templar in multiplayer) in question is using it to pass by while walking, instead of otherwise bumping/colliding which could cause a more heightened reaction (i.e. the collided-with character dropping an object audibly, causing a commotion noticed by other AI).

@Chortles: That's a tactical reload, I understand the principles but you need to pick up the slack when it goes wrong is what I'm saying. Pull the trigger all you want when it's jammed. Then you weigh up the situation; some of the possibilities are to go to melee. You have options during that event, if you don't open your mind to them then you stumble when you encounter them. Thanks for the comment.

Here's my issue with this line of discussion: last I checked, ARMA 3 will NOT have weapon jamming... therefore, if I pull the trigger and there is still ammo left in the magazine, it WILL go bang (and not in a kaBOOM way)! The tactical reload assumes that I would not have melee in ARMA 3, and my character may not have a pistol*, THEREFORE I am mainly concerned with how well I can my character can perform in extremely close quarters with a long gun -- even if this means "shooting on the jog" (tactical pace) -- when neither melee nor pistol are available options.

What's the CQB principle? Speed, surprise, violence of action? The surprise bit helps the rest, but speed and violence of action are what I'm most interested in for "does ARMA 3 (finally) do CQB"... therefore, it's what I want to see the most out of anything else in the ARMA 3 "Post-E3 2012" Infantry Showcase!" :D (Hey, the Supports showcase took place in a previous unseen area!)

* Here's hoping that ARMA 3 allows on-the-move pistol transitions... I mean, reloading on the move is in but not swapping to pistol on the move? That could be even more fatal than running dry on the long gun!

Edited July 30, 2012 by Chortles

[rye1 21]

Good points. In reference I was just fending off the 'realism' comments in regards to H2H/melee so you are spot on, agreed.

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/25357

Vote it up!