Syria - What should we do if anything?

[PELHAM 10]

Hmm interesting to note that Syria has not signed the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC):

The Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) is an arms control agreement which outlaws the production, stockpiling, and use of chemical weapons.

Syria is one of the small group of nations not to have done so (including North Korea).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_Weapons_Convention

Also the full text of the Downing St. press release - always best for clarity as certain quotes can be taken out of context :rolleyes::

Prime Minister David Cameron spoke with President Hollande and President Obama yesterday evening about Syria and the Eurozone.

http://www.number10.gov.uk/news/prime-ministers-phone-calls-with-presidents-hollande-and-obama/

Edited August 23, 2012 by PELHAM

[Madeon 6]

You have to see it to believe it, the infantry literally swarm all over this T-72

0YsXs-B86QA

[PELHAM 10]

It's an old lesson learned from WW2 - tank in town without infantry support = dead tank. You can see it proved in Arma2 nearly every day, it's so easy to sneak up on them.

[Tonci87 163]

Did he kill the tank with his RPG or did the tank shoot the parked car? BTW that guy is an idiot!

[NoRailgunner 0]

Just watch again and you will see where the RPG is flying (0:29). From the video you can't see who is behind the tank and what's really happen - other that the car is exploding, burning, smokin....

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah the car got shot either by that RPG guy or by the tank. I think it was an Tank HE Round, an RPG wouldn´t have such an effect

[PELHAM 10]

They have a good record of destroying tanks in Douma, search for it there are many videos. The date fits as there was heavy fighting there earlier this week, you could hear the sound all over Damascus and it was witnessed by Sky reporters. Can't be 100% sure but it look like the tank explodes after being hit by the RPG (0:31) and that sets the car on fire - you can hear the small calibre rounds cooking off. If the car was hit by HE it wouldn't still be in the street.

Tank is a T-72M "monkey model" with thin armour, downgraded weapons systems and they can be easily destroyed by RPG's as seen in many other videos. Shortly after being hit they just explode, spare rounds are stored in the crew compartments and the main autoloader cassette is easily breached when these explode. There is no effective separation of the crew from ammunition and no ammo explosion venting as in later tank designs.

Edited August 26, 2012 by PELHAM

[slatts 1978]

I don't think they are round cooking off, sounds more like gun fire from either the crew getting out and being shot or shooting at the guys behind the tank

[batto 17]

Look closely. The tank cannon aimed at the car just a second or less before explosion. It's in smoke from the RPG fire but it's visible. Also it seems the FSA insect fired the RPG above the tank (and to the right) because there's no explosion.

Edited August 25, 2012 by batto

[Tonci87 163]

Look closely. The tank cannon aimed at the car just a second or less before explosion. It's in smoke from the RPG fire but it's visible. Also it seems the FSA insect fired the RPG above the tank (and to the right) because there's no explosion.

This. The tank quick aimed at the car and blew it up.

[ProfTournesol 956]

This. The tank quick aimed at the car and blew it up.

Besides, the troops behind the tank seemed to accompany it.

[PELHAM 10]

Besides, the troops behind the tank seemed to accompany it.

Not doing much good back there - they are supposed to be in front clearing the way lol.

The Syrian Army has pulled back to Aleppo and Damascus leaving much of north eastern Syria under FSA control. The Syrian Government is simply bombing towns without striking any specific targets, there are many such videos apearing online at the moment. It's interesting to note that all the casualties are taken to Turkey, the Syrian state is not providing any medical services to civilians it injures in shelling and bombing:

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No doubt some will doubt the authenticity of the above - if you search "Azaz bombing" you will see the dead and wounded children exactly as described.

Edited August 26, 2012 by PELHAM

[Madeon 6]

Like a BOSS!

[ProfTournesol 956]

Not doing much good back there - they are supposed to be in front clearing the way lol.

Or simply taking cover behind it as usual.

BTW, something useful to understand what's happening there :

Edited August 27, 2012 by ProfTournesol

[oxmox 73]

This is another interesting map...

I wished press would/could accompany the Syrian Army and report aswell from their outlook. Our media reports are just too one sided which is quiete uncomfortable for us, as outsiders watching this conflict in the news.

The UN observer team left Syria and suddenly we have a new allegedly massacre in Daraya, at once the media jumps on it and blame the regime without any investigations...this is not quality journalism and it will probably leaves open questions like in Houla.

When it comes to the map, it is intersting that the clashes are mainly on the route Damascus-Homs/Hama-Aleppo. The populous areas besides on the mediterranean sea, the main route for the gas pipeline which stops currently in Homs and the close boarder support for the rebel groups. What about the eastern areas ? Didnt hear anything about it...

Like a BOSS!

He cant shoot with both hands because he holds a cigarette...:pet1:

Edited August 27, 2012 by oxmox

[slatts 1978]

Some of our media is less biased, saying it is unclear who really committed the massacre as both sides blame each other and theres no U.N observers.

Also about the eastern parts, maybe they don't care about picking up arms and support Asad?

[PELHAM 10]

it will probably leaves open questions like in Houla.

Thought that was all cleared up? pg-39. keep up with developments folks....

Syrian troops and militia were behind the Houla massacre of 108 people in May, UN investigators have concluded. Report issued on 15 August 2012.

Many in this thread said the Houla massacre was blamed on the Syrian Army and Shabiha erroniously by the western media. It was confirmed recently in a report by the UN Human Rights Council that the Syrian Government was responsible and the violations were the result of "state policy". UN observers say at least 108 people died, including 49 children and 34 women. No more than 20 appeared to have been killed by shellfire. Many of the rather dubious news sites linked to as evidence by others (Medialens?, are they on their summer hols or a book tour?) have so far not commented on this latest development lol.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syrian-troops-committed-war-crimes-says-un-report-8050282.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houla_massacre

Edited August 27, 2012 by PELHAM

[oxmox 73]

I didnt want to go back to the Houla toppic but since you mention it I have of course to tell why I did choose such a sentence in the thread before, articles in the german prime newspaper, FAZ-Frankfurter Allgmeine Zeitung, show a more sceptical point of view when it comes to Houla. Neverless, doesnt mean this is the only view and investigation. I posted the Spiegel report a while ago with interviews from FAS controlled areas, which shows a different view on the incident.

Could not find any article or translation from the main media about this FAZ reports, so I have to take the webpages I could find (wsws/moonof..)..no guarantee about the correct translation or additional content.

Original articles:

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/neue-erkenntnisse-zu-getoeteten-von-hula-abermals-massaker-in-syrien-11776496.html

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/arabische-welt/syrien-eine-ausloeschung-11784434.html

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/arabische-welt/massaker-in-syrien-un-bericht-bringt-keine-gewissheit-11862087.html

Parts of it translated:

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2012/06/prime-german-paper-syrian-rebels-committed-houla-massacre.html

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2012/06/new-faz-piece-on-houla-massacre-the-extermination.html

FAZ: Investigations about Houla:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jun2012/houl-j16.shtml

FAZ: UN-Report - contradictory statements

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jun2012/syri-j13.shtml

Thats why I did write there are still questions open....

Edited August 27, 2012 by oxmox

[PELHAM 10]

Yeahhh all those were written before the UN investigation was concluded and there was still some doubt over what occured - The UN concluded their full investigation on August 15th - all your links are from June. Do keep up Oxmox - there are no longer any questions open you are working off old, incorrect info, the UN has concluded that the regimes version of events has no credibility......it's now historical fact that the Houla Massacre was conducted by Assad's Army and the Shabiha.

hence: Syrian troops and militia were behind the Houla massacre of 108 people in May, UN investigators have concluded. Report issued on 15 August 2012.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houla_massacre

15th August -The UN has issued a damning 102-page report saying that Syrian government forces and Shabiha fighters have carried out numerous war crimes in the country including murder, torture and the massacre of 100 civilians, almost half of them children, near the town of Houla in May.

The UN's independent international commission of inquiry said the violations were the result of "state policy". It claimed president Bashar al-Assad's "security forces and government" at the highest levels were involved in "gross violation of international human rights".

The violations included "unlawful killing, indiscriminate attacks against civilian populations and acts of sexual violence," it said. The report painted a bleak picture of events on the ground in Syria, noting the situation inside the country has "deteriorated significantly" since February.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/15/houla-killings-un-blames-syria-troops

Today in a Sky interview with captured Shabiha they confessed to killings and rape which they conducted in return for drugs and money. They said the regime paid £240 for every protestor killed and one described participating in the punishment rape of 5 female students.

Edited August 28, 2012 by PELHAM

[oxmox 73]

The last article from the FAZ is from the 20th August and it doesnt matter, since investigations were done by the free press and by the UN organisation before the date you mentioned. There are still questions open since contradictionary statements and outcomes collide. Even wikipedia says that there is a lack of credible informations and the authors from the UN report talk about " there is a reasonable basis to believe". It would be interesting to know what the UN report says about the religious affiliation/background of these two chosen families since it was not a random massacre, mentioned in the news articles. Iam just saying this since you have even from the most reputable information sources different outcomes and some points to think about without tick something off too fast, but well some things will probably never be resolved.

Edited August 27, 2012 by oxmox

[PELHAM 10]

I downloaded the UN report on the Al-Houla massacre and the evidence that the government carried out the killings is very compelling. They don't think much of Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ)'s or Russia Today's journalism or investigative skills:

Office of the high Comissioner for Human Rights

Report of the independent international commission of inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic

pg64

The commission examined the version of events reported in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ), 7 June 2012, by Rainer Hermann, and by journalist Marat Musin, on Anna news and Russia Today, 2 June 2012, (Available at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyi-tJ_0PPg) both of which blamed the killings on anti-Government armed groups. The commission found these reports relied primarily on the same two witnesses as the Government’s report and not on additional investigation or witnesses in Al-Houla. Moreover, these reports asserted that the Abdulrazzak family had converted to Shiism. The commission confirmed that all members of both families were Sunni and that no one in either family had converted.

Rainer Hermann has based his story on anonymous interviews with activists in Damascus, he has not visited the Houla area or interviewed any witnesses.

pg10

44. Forty-seven interviews from various sources were considered by the commission. Interviews were consistent in their depiction of events and their description of the perpetrators as Government forces and Shabbiha. Apart from the two witnesses in the Government report, no other account supported the Government’s version of events. The commission carefully reviewed the two witnesses’ testimony as set out in that report, and judged their accounts as unreliable owing to a number of inconsistencies (see also annex IV). Accounts of other witnesses interviewed by different investigators remained consistent, including those collected from children, despite the fact that they were conducted over an extended period of time.

pg11

The national hospital is around 100m from one of the crime scenes and less tha 300m from the other 2 locations. In addition this took place in Syrian Government held territory and the roads were blocked by Government checkpoints.

47. The National Hospital had been occupied by the army for several months when the incidents took place. Although it was accessible by foot from both crime scenes, no one — whether injured or fleeing the crime scenes — sought refuge there for treatment or protection. As far as the commission could determine, all the injured and their relatives, as well as people from nearby houses, fled to opposition-controlled areas. None of the injured sought medical attention in the National Hospital. The Government report depicted the loyalties of the Al-Sayed family as pro-Government, but surviving family members fled to opposition-controlled areas of Taldou, choosing not to seek assistance from nearby Government forces.

49. On the basis of available evidence, the commission concluded that the elements of the war crime of murder have been met. The killing of multiple civilians, including women and children, was deliberate and connected to the ongoing armed conflict. There are reasonable grounds to believe that the perpetrators of the crime, at both the Abdulrazzak and Al-Sayed family locations, were Government forces and Shabbiha members.

50. There are also reasonable grounds to believe that these acts were part of a series of attacks directed against civilians, and as such, formed part of the conclusion (see section C below) that crimes against humanity were perpetrated by the Government and Shabbiha.

Direct link to report:

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies/HRCouncil/RegularSession/Session21/A-HRC-21-50.doc

Map of area showing surrounding Government positions:

http://blog.amnestyusa.org/middle-east/un-reveals-further-evidence-of-atrocities-in-syria/

Larger map showing local Artillery and Shabiha positions:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18274542

Edited August 29, 2012 by PELHAM

[mrcash2009 0]

NOTE: Before folk get there panties in a bunch, this would obviously need verifying elsewhere, I post for reference only, anyone knows more then please check further I dont post this as 100 percent fact.

The British Army has dispatched nearly 200 elite troops from the Special Air Service (SAS) and the Special Boat Service (SBS) in and around Syria to collect information about the country’s alleged chemical weapons.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/08/29/258864/chemical-weapons/

I imagine it will be difficult to confirm this, although anything comes please post in reference to it.

[slatts 1978]

Sounds like a load of bollocks tbh.

[mrcash2009 0]

Sounds like a load of bollocks tbh.

:) .. it could indeed be complete shite, I wouldn't grant it as completely accurate. Mainly posting to see if anything of its nature comes around in any reports later, more of a "date stamp it and see" kind of post.

[PELHAM 10]

Probably is bollocks to cover todays bad news and a recent faux pas by an IRGC general - PressTV is owned by the Iranian Government and has been involved in numerous tall tales and complicity in the torture of Iranian prisoners, it's another dubious news source beloved by conspiracy theorists along with Russia Today (see post #421). It's likely they are trying to counter the diplomatic problem that arose when an Iranian General admitted in a speech earlier this week that Iranian Special forces were fighting in Syria.

"Today we are involved in fighting every aspect of a war, a military one in Syria and a cultural one as well," Gen. Salar Abnoush, commander of Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps Saheb al-Amr unit, told volunteer trainees in a speech Monday.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444230504577615393756632230.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

By continuing to support Assad, Tehran's popular support in the region is slowly evaporating. They also suffered a black eye at the NAM conference in Tehran today when Egypt strongly supported the FSA, causing a walkout by the Syrian regime. Iran had openly floated a plan to support Assad using diplomatic assistance from Egypt.

In May this appeared:

"Before our presence in Syria, too many people were killed by the opposition but with the physical and non-physical presence of the Islamic republic, big massacres in Syria were prevented,"

This was a quote from the deputy head of Iran's elite Quds force, Ismail Gha'ani in an interview with the quasi-official Isna news agency. The item was removed from its website within a few days. Iran was widely reported to be aiding Syria to monitor the comminucations and mail of Syrian dissidents, it has also been involved in training the Shabiha which were involved in War Crimes such as the Al-Houla Massacre.

Edited August 30, 2012 by PELHAM