How to improve the Close Quarter Combat experience in Arma 3?

[iceman77 18]

It would be nice if navigating the indoors wasn't so rigid. But, that obviously stems from the 12 year old game engine.It's not so bad to deal with in the open world, but indoors it really sucks! There's little to do about it unfortunately. While A3 will surely see more fluid movement, I'm not so sure it will "fix" the problem. The overall movement was improved in transition between games so far, but only to a degree. It would be nice if movement were more fluid like BF3. No I don't play or "like" BF3 as a whole, and no I don't want a jump function, but I think there are some nice things about the game. Such as how fluid the movement is...

Edited December 28, 2012 by Iceman77

[-Coulum- 35]

What exactly makes up this fluidity that we all want to see? Is it just the fact that guns are always getting caught on objects? The head bob? The lack of large inteririors in arma? Poor FPS? The jerky weapon sights while moving? Movement speeds?

I agree that arma lacks something in this department, but I haven't had the pleasure of playing BF3. What exactly would fix arma so it is more fluid?

I Personally think that elimination of mouse acceleration and the improved steadiness of walking while aiming down the sights will improve fluidity, but what do other shooters have that arma doesn't?

[metalcraze 290]

BF3 has floating camera without simulating the body movement. The soldier thus doesn't need to finish a step. Of course it will seem smoother but it will turn ArmA into BF3 in an instant.

I agree with what you want to see, Coulum plus weapons getting caught in objects can easily be solved by autolowering/autoraising (as was discussed) - after all soldiers do that IRL when they pass through tight spaces.

[Tonci87 163]

Well ways to improve:

autolowering/autoraising weapons (has to be done carefully, or players will start to complain because their weapon autolowered as they are eaning around a corner and moving a little bit)

more space inside buildings

weapon should be that jerky while walking with the sights up (of course it shouldn´t be on rails either)

I think those steps will make moving inside of houses better

[Smurf 12]

Didn't play BF3 for more then 10 minutes but I would say that RO2 has the most fluid controls without bein irrealistic like COD and wannabes.

You have 3 stances, lean, low run, jump, vault over, climb into and inertia to start\stop moving. Combined with the auto lowering stuff (that happens only when you are touching the walls\objects, until then the weapon get pushed back. Size does matters in this case), small incrase in height while aiming and the rest system (also, bipods), you get an awesome possibility of movements without being something surreal..

And I didn't even mentioned the cover system (which is, for once, good!) because it doesn't matter for this series.

Granted, it doesn't have the free look nor the whole body like ARMA but everything else is spot on.

But let's see how A3 turns out, the tactical pace alone might be a huge improvment over what we have now for indoors. Smookie and company know what they're doing and BIS is aware that ARMA sucks indoors.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Smurf

[metalcraze 290]

BTW guys not sure if this has been posted here but

Now animations are wonky but that's not the point. Note how they improve the CQB aspect with stuff like pushing a pistol to your chest while moving which would be a life savior in tight indoors of takistani-like buildings

Note how the soldier also keeps weapon at the ready even when reloading which again is a cool stuff for CQB. Weapon shake is also smoother when moving compared to how it is in VBS2/ArmA2 atm and yet without turning it into a floating camera gunplay. And even when moving with the lowered weapon it's ready to be raised and fired almost immediately compared to the relaxed stance of ArmA2.

The soldier also takes out the pistol really fast without the need to put a rifle on his back.

Here's hoping ArmA3 will get these CQB improvements from its big brother.

Edited December 29, 2012 by metalcraze

[xeno 234]

Here's hoping ArmA3 will get these CQB improvements from its big brother.

Looks like VBS2 got the A3 animations. Especially visible when the lower part of the body (legs) moves in another direction than the upper part of the body (check A3 videos).

All that was already playable @gamescom.

Edit: And playing the A3 gamescom alpha was like playing A2/OA, sadly.

Xeno

[Tonci87 163]

BTW guys not sure if this has been posted here but

Now animations are wonky but that's not the point. Note how they improve the CQB aspect with stuff like pushing a pistol to your chest while moving which would be a life savior in tight indoors of takistani-like buildings

Note how the soldier also keeps weapon at the ready even when reloading which again is a cool stuff for CQB. Weapon shake is also smoother when moving compared to how it is in VBS2/ArmA2 atm and yet without turning it into a floating camera gunplay. And even when moving with the lowered weapon it's ready to be raised and fired almost immediately compared to the relaxed stance of ArmA2.

The soldier also takes out the pistol really fast without the need to put a rifle on his back.

Here's hoping ArmA3 will get these CQB improvements from its big brother.

I like it

[Liondrome 1]

Better way to throw grenades.

In Arma 2 its not very easy to guess the distance/throwing power so usually it ends up bouncing off the target it was aimed for.

Being able to throw a grenade or a flash bang if they are in Arma 3 would be quite useful. That and perhaps sensitivity of the throw could be determined by a up movement with a mouse.

[dragon01 902]

Grenade throwing system is very clumsy in AII. You press LMB to throw, then your character pulls a 'nade from his vest, pulls the pin and throws. It takes a lot of time from the player's action to actual throw. IMHO, this should be done completely differently, sort of like in AA3. First of all, grenades should be a separate "weapon" in the selection (you need two hands for throwing them). So, by selecting grenades, you'd ready one you want to throw. Then, press "R" to pull the pin. By pressing LMB you'd throw a minimum distance as quickly as possible. Holding LMB would allow you to set the throw length. Weaker throws should be quicker than stronger ones. Pressing RMB would allow you to "cook" the 'nade (I can't find a better function for the "aim" button in this case).

You might think pulling the pin as a separate action would be an overkill, but remember that it'd allow you to do the actual throw very quickly. This would be really useful in CQC, allowing you to throw a flashbang into the next room before the door opening animation finishes. MMB to open doors (holding the spoon down on a flashbang), then LMB to throw it inside, all in about a second. From what I've seen, that's how it's really done.

Also, it should be possible to have various throw modes (cycled with "f"). Overhand, underhand, roll, drop, direct, etc.

[kot1k 13]

I've already posted this into suggestions topic

We need proper animations for covering behind wide variety of obstacles and objects; animations for peeking/firing around the corner and through the windows on different altitudes, both from inside and outside of a building, ability to slightly lower/rise your head/barrel while still staying in prone or sitting position, to look out of cover/into the window, and shoot over some obstacles which you couldn't shoot over from the standart prone/sitting position; animations and features for breaking into the room through windows. Yes, exactly what Smookie had been trying to accomplish with his SMK mod (here is preview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vklOq6KFQy4). (Well, even better, what if the game could feature an animation editor, where player could construct his custom set of different stances and transitions between them, of course, limitied by anatomy of human body, then just import them into the game and assign hotkeys). We need easy ways (even if it means scriptable and static, like "press the Ctrl+Shift+F to throw grenade into this window") to toss grenades into the different size's apertures, into the doorways (without stepping into them or staying in front of them) - and all this have to be available while running/walking too (here is a concept which is currently on "to do" list of ACE mod:

). We need ability to breach different obstacles with demolition charges, to blow holes in the walls with c4. We need grenade you've thrown up the staircase to the 2nd flor wouldn't kill you through the concrete ceiling, the same goes for fences; fast and easy weapon management when dealing with narrow doorways and passages (hotkey for lower your weapon and rise it again, or just auto-raising/lowering). We need more buildings that can be entered, in the end.

[Tonci87 163]

I've already posted this into suggestions topic

We need proper animations for covering behind wide variety of obstacles and objects; animations for peeking/firing around the corner and through the windows on different altitudes, both from inside and outside of a building, ability to slightly lower/rise your head/barrel while still staying in prone or sitting position, to look out of cover/into the window, and shoot over some obstacles which you couldn't shoot over from the standart prone/sitting position; animations and features for breaking into the room through windows. Yes, exactly what Smookie had been trying to accomplish with his SMK mod (here is preview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vklOq6KFQy4). (Well, even better, what if the game could feature an animation editor, where player could construct his custom set of different stances and transitions between them, of course, limitied by anatomy of human body, then just import them into the game and assign hotkeys). We need easy ways (even if it means scriptable and static, like "press the Ctrl+Shift+F to throw grenade into this window") to toss grenades into the different size's apertures, into the doorways (without stepping into them or staying in front of them) - and all this have to be available while running/walking too (here is a concept which is currently on "to do" list of ACE mod:

). We need ability to breach different obstacles with demolition charges, to blow holes in the walls with c4. We need grenade you've thrown up the staircase to the 2nd flor wouldn't kill you through the concrete ceiling, the same goes for fences; fast and easy weapon management when dealing with narrow doorways and passages (hotkey for lower your weapon and rise it again, or just auto-raising/lowering). We need more buildings that can be entered, in the end.

This will be in Arma 3 :)

[kot1k 13]

Tonci87, with all due respect, I highly doubt that ALL of this will be implemented. Where is this confidence stems from?

[froggyluv 2136]

This will be in Arma 3 :)

Really?!? I didn't know we're going to have the ability to slightly look up and over obstacle nor enter thru windows? Link?

[maturin 12]

Tonci87, with all due respect, I highly doubt that ALL of this will be implemented. Where is this confidence stems from?

He bolded the feature that will be implemented.

[froggyluv 2136]

Ahh ok. Still I didn't know about the ability to slightly elevate -thats good news.

[Tonci87 163]

Ahh ok. Still I didn't know about the ability to slightly elevate -thats good news.

It was in one of the Infantry showcases. This will be extremely usefull.

[chortles 263]

If I recall, it's simply that the stance adjustment system will include that raise/lower in the form of Ctrl+W or Ctrl+S from standing or crouch... no idea how Ctrl+S would work when prone, but apparently Ctrl+W from prone = "Last Stand". :D The idea was that in place of sticky cover, this is (manually) 'fitting the soldier to the cover' while still retaining freedom of movement.

[Jaimy 1]

Close quarter movement can't be worse than Arma 2 :P!

[chortles 263]

Like InstaGoat said in the other thread before it got locked... not sure if Arma 3 infantry movement/weapons handling for CQB is better enough for your standards, but it's noticeably better to me.

[vampire613 1]

The main problem isn't just close quater combat the flaw lies in the sluggish movement system that is similar to a robot disabled grandmother with a rifle. Make it smooth and CQC will no longer be an issue.

Take crouch as an example it takes a huge ammount of time just to do this simple feat. In real life you can crouch in less than half a second (less if someones shooting at you) . Movement is the biggest issue with all arma games and even flashpoint before it.

This is inexcusable in a military simulator* Im sure some minor tweaks and improvements will be made in arma 3 but nothing ground breaking. The smoothness of battlefield with arma sized maps and arma everything else would have game/simulator of the year all over it.

Edited January 3, 2013 by vampire613

[Psychomorph 1]

I have to agree with vampire613. I can't believe this flaw remained a constantly reappearing part of the series still after 2001 (OPF) untill today (ArmA2) and has been the reason why I was not really able to get into these games. I have to say though, that I am less interested in a full scale warfare, but rather small unit CQB, so I've been rather playing the Rainbow Six and SWAT games.

Making the movement and gun handling smoother and simpler to handle does not mean it needs to be turned into Call of Duty. R6: Raven Shield has an excellent movement and shooting system (although with many flaws, still works well). When you play with people who do not abuse the flaws, such as constant crouched running (making AI always shoot the upright standing player first), hiding behind smoke grenades (makes AI blind) and using the sound suppressors (AI ignores the gun sound completely) and also not running all the time (tear down the stack) or being too slow (boring). I've been playing with people where we did not run at all, always walking, but that wasn't boring, because we were constantly on the move, the formation/stack adapting to the architecture, flowing into rooms like water, because of the simple, smooth, yet realistically paced movement system. The slow, but dynamic pace allows for excellent muzzle control. I am having all my guns on semi auto and double tapping constantly. Raven Shield is one shot kill mostly, but not always, so when I double tap I keep the target in sight until I am sure that it really goes down. Very enjoyable. I've been realizing the good things that Raven Shield does lately more than ever and have been enjoying it more than ever, despite the horrendous flaws of that game (every games has its own).

Sure, Raven Shield is a CQB game, but give it sight aiming instead of the reticule, add a carry position and a sprint button and you have a good movement system which works good for CQB and outdoor and is not dumbed down and unrealistic. Everything is possible, it just needs to be made.

[rye1 21]

RVS is pretty outdated and the community are soft on aspects of CQB -- though it does just about out show every other game out there. Too man times I see people abuse the engine in that way, on almost every server - even the regulated ones. But fixating that around ARMA is a hard task, a good goal and reference, maybe even a motivator but a very hard task. I expect improved but not a competitor; far from perfect. Movement, enterability and associated minor character controls are big, obvious and long running issues of ARMA. Cases have been repeated, requests been duplicated, it's not something BIS doesn't know of, I hope it's something BIS are looking to invest more time into. Heck, I hope a lot of time and effort; not just polishing some aspects but really digging deep into the character-environment transaction.

[vampire613 1]

RVS is pretty outdated and the community are soft on aspects of CQB -- though it does just about out show every other game out there. Too man times I see people abuse the engine in that way, on almost every server - even the regulated ones. But fixating that around ARMA is a hard task, a good goal and reference, maybe even a motivator but a very hard task. I expect improved but not a competitor; far from perfect. Movement, enterability and associated minor character controls are big, obvious and long running issues of ARMA. Cases have been repeated, requests been duplicated, it's not something BIS doesn't know of, I hope it's something BIS are looking to invest more time into. Heck, I hope a lot of time and effort; not just polishing some aspects but really digging deep into the character-environment transaction.

Yet they keep making the same mistake over and over again... even the gameplay vids of arma 3 you can see barely anything has changed movement wise.

[metalcraze 290]

R6RS is not a good example. It's a floating camera where you can adjust height from a top position to prone and still be on the move. Like you are not playing a human soldier but a flying turret.

Want it or not but save for some things (which ArmA3 does take from RS - like dynamic BUT realistic stances) R6RS is not far from being an advanced version of Counter-Strike.

Having floating camera and realistic ballistics at the same time will utterly break any game. You will be able to move and snipe people 100m away at the same time. There's a reason why floating camera shooters (which is everything but ArmA series p. much - that includes BF3 and R6RS) have the annoying cone of fire instead of doing it right.

The smoothness of battlefield with arma sized maps and arma everything else would have game/simulator of the year all over it.

So you want Battlefield with big maps. Why won't you suggest it to DICE then?

Why is it always ArmA forums that get these requests? Just curious.

Edited January 3, 2013 by metalcraze