Cover Systems, Lean & Realism

[smookie 11]

i am gonna feed some troll today :)

Which is completely unrealistic. I mean it has back-to-wall stance and blindfire... with a steady aim of all things. And when soldiers crouch it's like they are taking a dump. And you can shoot while lying on your side. It's not serious.

Yes, of course. Its totally unrealistic to go back-to-wall. No man has ever done that in history of mankind. All soldiers crouch like ballerines and they always position themselves in perfect shooting stances. In the end you can't fire when lying on your side because the recoil will make you spin like a top.

As for leaning, some options are taken into considerations and you have my word there will be some changes for the better and more control in ArmA3 :)

[saltatormortis 12]

Blindfire is not unrealistic. but its not trained in the military like in the SMK.

you use the wall to stabilize the weapon and go around that point.

but back to blindfire possibilitys:

(and yes he use corner optics)

the prone shooting is trained in the military! i approve this i was in the german army

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w61pkMMAv8g

(random youtube proof)

you called the accuracy problem, its not possible to use 2 or more accuracy settings in the currend arma 2 engine!

because that the SMK drains stamina in these stances.(and if you dont use 3rd you shoot blind) you have to look at the engine and then on the reality

there are always limits

but hey its only a game!!

PS

have you tryed to stop on a single spot like in a game with 20kg?

Edited March 26, 2012 by SaltatorMortis

[hoak 0]

i am gonna feed some troll today :)

Yes, of course. Its totally unrealistic to go back-to-wall. No man has ever done that in history of mankind. All soldiers crouch like ballerines and they always position themselves in perfect shooting stances. In the end you can't fire when lying on your side because the recoil will make you spin like a top.

As for leaning, some options are taken into considerations and you have my word there will be some changes for the better and more control in ArmA3 :)

:D

Well, sarcasm aside -- in most 'realism' games and all games OFP and ArmA to date we've only had one set of cover system animations and a goofy radial camera when 'leaning' -- so it's not unreasonable to assume we won't have hundreds of lean and cover postures or even a dozen in ArmA 3, and one that looks, works and feels convincing would make me a happy FanBoy.

Another consideration that doesn't get much play but is equally if not more important is lean/peek movement speed considerations with respect to hit-reconciliation time constants In many games the movement speed in these animations can over-speed hit-reconciliation even rather low ping scenarios where 'what you see is not what you get'...

:)

[antoineflemming 14]

To sprint somewhere in ArmA2: press W facing the needed direction.

Also try going outside and sliding. Preferably with 20 KGs of gear. Then report back about your injuries and torn clothes.

Which is completely unrealistic. I mean it has back-to-wall stance and blindfire... with a steady aim of all things. And when soldiers crouch it's like they are taking a dump. And you can shoot while lying on your side. It's not serious.

1) Tell that to the Navy Seal in Act of Valor who did just that, with gear on. And no, you won't tear your clothes if you slide.

2) What? I can understand the blindfire thing (as most soldiers are told to conserve ammo, as in shooting on semi-auto, not auto or burst, then blindfire doesn't really work too well), but back-to-wall not realistic? What soldier DOESN'T take cover in combat? Have you even seen real combat?

So glad you aren't a BIS employee working on animations...

[metalcraze 290]

Yes, of course. Its totally unrealistic to go back-to-wall. No man has ever done that in history of mankind.

More like no man has lived to tell the tale because his back was full with bullets - with all that turning it to enemy and all.

All soldiers crouch like ballerines and they always position themselves in perfect shooting stances.

Isn't that what's happening in your mod? Even if soldier is lying on his side he can make perfect headshots like a pro.

For some reason you and other people here believe that human body is ultra flexible and even wearing 20 KGs of gear doesn't stop it from being able to take it any position lightningly fast and with a surgical precision.

Well human body is not like that - especially when a 1m long weapon and a backpack aren't helping that.

It's right there with complaining about the "lack of cover" from bushes and walls and "silencers" that can be heard from 50+ m being an issue.

As for leaning, some options are taken into considerations and you have my word there will be some changes for the better and more control in ArmA3 :)

The only option that should be considered is giving a kb+mouse users the same advantage TrackIR users currently have - the gradual leaning.

Please keep the hollywoodish stuff present in SMK as far away from vanilla as possible.

Blindfire is not unrealistic. but its not trained in the military like in the SMK.

you use the wall to stabilize the weapon and go around that point.

I didn't say it wasn't possible. Just like nothing stops a soldier from puting his weapon to his head and pulling a trigger. If you read the whole sentence main complaint was that SMK mod allows you to do precise shooting without proper recoil while blindfiring.

(random youtube proof)

Proof of what? I see bullets hitting the ground. Incredibly effective instead of just being prone. In SMK you can do headshots with a surgical precision while lying on your side.

That and he exposes his whole body to the enemy. Very effective and not for showing off.

1) Tell that to the Navy Seal in Act of Valor who did just that, with gear on. And no, you won't tear your clothes if you slide.

I've seen this one movie where Will Smith defeated an alien invasion by uploading a human computer virus.

And in No Country For Old Men the baddie silently kills dudes with a shotgun with a suppressor.

Go ahead and slide on a surface that isn't made specifically for a cool hollywood shot to an action movie. Like rocks or asphalt. Or some forest surface with all those branches and roots.

2) What? I can understand the blindfire thing (as most soldiers are told to conserve ammo, as in shooting on semi-auto, not auto or burst, then blindfire doesn't really work too well), but back-to-wall not realistic? What soldier DOESN'T take cover in combat? Have you even seen real combat?

Yes. In fact you yourself can do that without even going to war. Open some military video at YouTube and look how many soldiers stand back-to-wall in combat. Especially CQB.

BTW where did I say that soldiers don't take cover in combat? They just don't do it in a retarded way like in Future Soldier, Gears of War, Mass Effect etc.

What is this? Why don't they do hollywood moves into cover? Why do they lean and move instead? Why do they face direction of enemy at all times instead of standing back to wall? Are they stupid?

Edited March 26, 2012 by metalcraze

[rye1 21]

That video you posted is from the documentary Conquest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAUoyrran_I&feature=player_embedded.

That's mainly pointed at an LE/LEO audience, not military. Though it does conduct some simply military TTP's like buttonhook, hallway saturation, etc.

That means that is pointing out their SOP's and IOP's for the role they will play. I believe they were actors, getting trained by that stuntman, for an upcoming role.

But in other military videos you see, they do not do any back-to-wall because point man has to be ready for a threat.

He was probably taught to do that due to some dodgey IOP that needs development i.e. one for an open door threat with no target, or simply did it for the camera.

That was random....

On topic: Back-to-wall and blind-firing has probably been done somewhere... some Libyan rebel with aviators and a pink polo T-shirt. It's an insurgent and very unconventional "tactic" (at least a tactic in their eyes).

Edited March 26, 2012 by Rye

[metalcraze 290]

Well we are talking CQB, no?

If dudes trained in CQB don't do all that cool action movie crap - then why would some grunts who are not as well trained?

The point of that show is that both it and the host shows how it's done by the real SWAT.

On topic: Back-to-wall and blind-firing has probably been done somewhere... some Libyan rebel with aviators and a pink polo T-shirt. It's an insurgent and very unconventional "tactic" (at least a tactic in their eyes).

As I've said - nobody stops them from putting a gun to their head and pulling a trigger too :>

For a game about military however it can be hazardous especially considering suggestions to limit movement in order to pull off scripted cover sequences.

I guess the reason for this is that in contrast to console shooters where cover provides nearly 100% invulnerability - ArmA is very harsh with this. But it still will be - even with a scripted cover.

The problem thus is that there still will be complaints from people who think that GoW does it right but a game will have a butchered movement and realism.

You can see it from a "too low stonewalls in ArmA2!!1" comments. The fact is that everything but the ground itself isn't cover at all doesn't matter to them.

The bullet would still hit whatever part of a body is exposed anyway. Including through the stonewall. This isn't a console shooter with a binary "vulnerable/invulnerable" hitscan after all.

Edited March 26, 2012 by metalcraze

[Smurf 12]

So, a well trained and armed SWAT-style entry team about to storm a room summarize everything that ARMA can offer, both in and outdoors, is that what you are saying? :j:

This type of closed mind doesn´t help at all to improve the game in any aspect.

PS: Not talking about those systems implemented in GoW, BiA, GRAW, KZ, R6V and all... those are crap.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Smurf

[rye1 21]

Well we are talking CQB, no?

If dudes trained in CQB don't do all that cool action movie crap - then why would some grunts who are not as well trained?

The point of that show is that both it and the host shows how it's done by the real SWAT.

Not true. The point of that show is for entertainment. You're talking about SWAT... that is many agencies put under a common name if you will. Depending on team they do things differently - as I said, IOP's... Internal Operating Procedures. And you're talking about a Stuntman teaching them, with some real SWAT boys who aren't going to feed them their SOP's, but probably feed them some media-uncensored-unrestricted-bullsh*t mixed with some reality to satisfy their audience. It's called limited exposure. Those tactics are unclassified. As this shows... anything you share with people can be misused.

So why would some people do it? The way they've been taught. One can argue who taught them, taught them wrong. You could research why someone would put their back-to-the-wall and find the pro's and con's, but in all honesty it will not happen for a Military unit (individual mentioned below). You could try sway the readers with more proof.

Now.. if you're talking OPFOR or individual tactics then I could understand blind firing and back-to-the-wall (in conjunction?), but not in aggressive and active CQB TTP's. There is no time for that kind of passive response to a threat in a team environment. I'd certainly use it individually at somepoint but let's face it, such a global change in animations needs a lot of thought before BIS implement. It might totally mess up any kind of PVP, and a lot of people would be doing it randomly (Gears of War derp). I'm sure Smookie has a lot up his sleeve anyway, not for us to worry about. Especially such small matters that can be modded. :p

For real references, for a military game, look at some military videos:

The way the snap to target and move their body, the way the chest and upper body moves to snap that muzzle on target.

Side-stepping and shiznit. The problem with it is... it may be crap in game. Would need testing etc, CO-OP, PVP.

Arma can only offer us what works in Arma, not what works in reality.

Upon saying that, if it wanted to improve certain aspects of the game i.e. CQB then it should work Arma around that -- this is especially linked with the animations.

[Whirly 1]

As for leaning, some options are taken into considerations and you have my word there will be some changes for the better and more control in ArmA3 :)

Thanks. Hope you don't mind me posting footage of your animations in action for those who haven't seen them yet, I hope some of these animations find their way to Arma3.

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More like no man has lived to tell the tale because his back was full with bullets - with all that turning it to enemy and all.

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I didn't say it wasn't possible. Just like nothing stops a soldier from puting his weapon to his head and pulling a trigger.

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[NoRailgunner 0]

Well can AI do the same animations/movements or will they have troubles to do them in a reasonable way? Imagine a team of AIs doing a power slide (in perfect sync!) just close to a wall/object and shortly after wasting their ammo with blind fire into the wrong direction or on a target that is armored....

Seems that there will be some more hilarious/funny moments for us waiting in A3! Guess BIS devs do have their laughs in discovering them first and deciding to "let it slip through" or to fix it.

Hope there will be a new but classic dance animation "Sirtaki"... a game on a Greek island without this dance (+Ouzo) won't sell well!! :D

x6cW779sBF8

[rye1 21]

@Whirly Yeah there's plenty cases of it being used - to what degree of success is unknown. But the importance more than 'realism' is how it will be used in game. Ruin it, or add to it? And that first picture is fail lol. :p

[Whirly 1]

But the importance more than 'realism' is how it will be used in game.

Same way it's used in the real world, kill or suppress the enemy without exposing oneself to direct fire.

And that first picture is fail lol. :p

Care to elaborate.

[rye1 21]

Because he's using it so ineffectively, unstable platform, recoil knocking the weapon about, his buddy not even ready to back him up... hence the fail. Still depicts the point.

I could adjust myself to it being used if it was in A3. Aslong as it's fluid, and the transitions between the animations are quick.

[Whirly 1]

Because he's using it so ineffectively, unstable platform, recoil knocking the weapon about, his buddy not even ready to back him up... hence the fail.

It was a very intense firefight Rye, a wounded Marine was trapped beneath a stairwell by an insurgent armed with a AK-47, the Marine firing through the doorway - using the 'fail' technique - killed the insurgent. I have photographs of the dead insurgent.

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[rye1 21]

No one said it was a fail technique but a bad tactical representation within the picture - as it would be different within Arma to my understanding. I have already researched this stuff, I argued for blind firing a few months ago in a random thread. I said it was an individual technique, and a tactic only if done correctly - most of the time we seen it done, namely by insurgents, it is done ineffectively and personally I prefer it as a last resort. In Arma with this you'll have a stable platform, I personally don't think BIS would allow you to move around in the blind fire position and therefore you need smooth transitions of animations to back-off or push into the room without waiting 3 seconds for the animation to finish (continued animation/effect; you naturally adjust body position in a firefight but with Arma the body position will be one animation long, no micro-adjustments). The only thing people can agree with in this picture is: 1) It is used by both sides, some more effectively than others which gets the 'realism' arguements to zero, and 2) recoil will really effect it. It still leaves questions to be answered: 1) Does this mean you have to have your back to the wall? As in the picture he is on an oblique angle and still firing in, 2) Can you move or do you have to stay stable? And finally 3) How does this effect global gameplay, 'cheats' and the average player/game? (Especially when it comes to PVP).

If you have video or pictures, send via PM (the firefight, not the dead insurgent).

[Whirly 1]

No one said it was a fail technique but a bad tactical representation within the picture - as it would be different within Arma to my understanding.

Sorry mate, I misinterpreted what you meant.

I have already researched this stuff, I argued for blind firing a few months ago in a random thread. I said it was an individual technique, and a tactic only if done correctly - most of the time we seen it done, namely by insurgents, it is done ineffectively and personally I prefer it as a last resort.

It's a common tactic used by all troops when the shit hits the fan, I'll post some footage of U.S troops employing the blindfire technique durig a firefight in Afghanistan.

If you have video or pictures, send via PM (the firefight, not the dead insurgent).

No problem.

[rye1 21]

Well it could be classed as an individual survivability drill i.e. when pinned, blocked; to regain iniative, to suppress, halt, kill, intimidate or impede the enemy.

It minimises silhouette, may create the illusion of a bigger force or a better positioned force, may be used as a distraction technique. But of course, it has cons - it reduces accuracy, situational awareness as it creates target fixation and possibly hesitation from no visual assurance that the target is down, or even hit.

These pro's and con's translated to Arma mean it can be used, if used correctly. But in my opinion it can also has the chance to be a 'mini-cheat' in close quarters. Shouldn't matter anyway with all the campers, huh. ;)

[Whirly 1]

But in my opinion it can also has the chance to be a 'mini-cheat' in close quarters.

I personally wouldn't consider it cheating, I mean it is a realistic tactic afterall, but let me stress - I only play Arma in the first person view.

Here are some real life examples of 'blindfire'. I can post more videos if people are interested in using the footage as reference material for creating blindfire animations.

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[Mr. Charles 22]

Well can AI do the same animations/movements or will they have troubles to do them in a reasonable way? Imagine a team of AIs doing a power slide (in perfect sync!) just close to a wall/object and shortly after wasting their ammo with blind fire into the wrong direction or on a target that is armored....

Seems that there will be some more hilarious/funny moments for us waiting in A3! Guess BIS devs do have their laughs in discovering them first and deciding to "let it slip through" or to fix it.

Hope there will be a new but classic dance animation "Sirtaki"... a game on a Greek island without this dance (+Ouzo) won't sell well!! :D

QFT

And for blind firing: I don't use it in any shooter that has it.

[antoineflemming 14]

Well can AI do the same animations/movements or will they have troubles to do them in a reasonable way? Imagine a team of AIs doing a power slide (in perfect sync!) just close to a wall/object and shortly after wasting their ammo with blind fire into the wrong direction or on a target that is armored....

Seems that there will be some more hilarious/funny moments for us waiting in A3! Guess BIS devs do have their laughs in discovering them first and deciding to "let it slip through" or to fix it.

Hope there will be a new but classic dance animation "Sirtaki"... a game on a Greek island without this dance (+Ouzo) won't sell well!! :D

As far as SMK's animation pack, no, AI can't do it, as the pack is for PvP. So in ArmA 2, no, they can't blindfire or slide to cover, or stack up on a wall (upon using the pack again, it's actually shoulder to wall). But, if the devs were to add something like this in ArmA3, then they could probably make AI do it, the same way that AI currently peek and lean around walls.

[metalcraze 290]

Just because somebody did it once in 100000 battles with some effect doesn't mean it's an effective tactic. Also notice how in blindfire videos they face the wall, don't stand back to wall like idiots.

Especially considering that it will be spammed in a game.

This will quickly turn ArmA into a hollywood monkey circus.

And personally for me at least - utterly ruin the game.

Imagine you join an MP game - and everyone slides under walls even on asphalt or rocky surfaces like on ice, then whole squad gets back to wall and starts blindfiring. So realistic and authentic.

So, a well trained and armed SWAT-style entry team about to storm a room summarize everything that ARMA can offer, both in and outdoors, is that what you are saying? :j:

This type of closed mind doesn´t help at all to improve the game in any aspect.

PS: Not talking about those systems implemented in GoW, BiA, GRAW, KZ, R6V and all... those are crap.

We were talking about "CQB". And yes CQB doesn't involve people sliding from wall to wall, blindfiring the f out of enemies unlike some people here believe.

I actually said that ArmA can get some ideas from R6RS with a freedom of adjusting the stance and leaning and picking over walls/into windows - with some limitations of course since R6RS takes it a bit too far.

I am against any forms of scripted cover, especially wrong ones, is all.

Edited March 27, 2012 by metalcraze

[Panda_pl 0]

I am playing R6:3 RS currently.

I did not find the system useful at all. Same goes for incremental door opening which just causes AI to blind fire trough the door or shoot you dead as soon as the door reveals your elbow.

On hardest difficulty all you use is lean keys. Half the time you just need to strafe, rapid fire and do not stop for nothing.

The thing is the enemy is shooting better and faster if you are stationary so using the incremental lean is a guaranteed shot in the face...

It's same story in multiplayer.

[rye1 21]

Panda you must be really bad at playing then! What the hell. The incremental door opening as you said is awesome! Can just pop it a little bit; peek in or throw a flash with out over-exposure. Agreed about the lean to a point, it's useful dependent on the player who uses it, where and how.

The blindfire imo, if introduced, would be a static animation. You can blind fire facing the wall too, so that wouldn't stop people facing away from the wall and doing it either - nothing you can do about that.

@Metalcraze - That's some Gears of War crap, no one believes that. We believe it could be useful, to be able to blindfire from an object. Not slide around... -_-. The arguements of "but you can slide" - cool story, think of Arma's universal use in MP - it would create havoc. It's similar to that weird jump you pull in I44 with run and V. For some reason though your whole post reminded me of that Indian 'Hero Cop' kind of movie where the cop is chasing a car... by horse... and slides under a truck... with the horse... perfectly on a 90 degree angle.

[Whirly 1]

Just because somebody did it once in 100000 battles with some effect doesn't mean it's an effective tactic.

Your illuminating your lack of knowledge of military tactics. Blindfire is especially beneficial when pinned by accurate fire or when in very close proximity to the enemy. Blindfire has been used by since the invention of the firearm and always will be used.

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