Depiction of war in video games

[Rak 0]

A PMC and his views on depiction of war in video games. I thought this was an interesting read, I wonder what does the ArmA community think about it?

http://www.mediumdifficulty.com/2012/03/01/call-of-apathy-violent-young-men-and-our-place-in-war/

[Tonci87 163]

Really good read!

[kylania 568]

Interesting article. I think most players know the "war hero" isn't real, but it's a hell of a lot more fun to play than a guy that doesn't remember taking out a kid because he didn't get a kill. :)

[PELHAM 10]

Nothing fresh there? People have been writing that stuff since Vietnam. It's all true.

RE the gaming side people who play other FPS games complain about the restrictive movement in Arma2. They never 'get it' no matter how hard you try to explain it. I think the only way would be to dress them in full battle kit and see how far they get sprinting around and jumping off roofs. Passed out with broken ankles after 20mins!

RE collateral damage we have everything apart from kids simulated. It would not disturb me to see them in game and might deter those mortar and A10 junkies who like to flatten whole towns rather than being a man and killing up close. 2 problems though:

1. Kids come in a variety of sizes which takes up a large chunk of models and modelling time as you have to make 2 of each type.

2. As soon as you did it, some hack would scream 'PC game glorifies shooting children' so no one will do it.

He also doesn't mention people who shoot dogs, fully grown men who shoot defenceless dogs are just as shitty as those who shoot women and children.

[Clarkey1 10]

Good read, just saw this on Kotaku, came here to post it and what do you know!

I would absolutely, without question, 100% play a game where the soldiers are depicted as guys like this. The 80% of Infantrymen as he puts it.

...Other missions involve you being under fire for the entire patrol. You never see the enemy, just fire at the long grass in front of you as you crawl slowly to some cover. If you get up, you will be cut down within seconds...

Video games not depicting war? Pfff play some ArmA son. :p

EDIT:

RE the gaming side people who play other FPS games complain about the restrictive movement in Arma2. They never 'get it' no matter how hard you try to explain it. I think the only way would be to dress them in full battle kit and see how far they get sprinting around and jumping off roofs. Passed out with broken ankles after 20mins!

^^^ 100 times this ^^^. It may or may not be an engine limitation but you don't have to have ever been in the military to realise it must be HARD to move wearing 60ish kilos of gear. Just watch a video of soldiers on patrol (it's not like their in short supply). If you're not blind you'll notice the way they move looks awkward and restricted. Just some of the words I've heard to describe ArmA's movement.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Clarkey1

[dmarkwick 261]

He may be correct in what he writes, but really, how is it relevant to anything? A game is a game, he might as well complain about Hollywood depictions of war heroes and he'd be just as correct, and also just as irrelevant. War is being used as an entertainment topic, and it has always been used as an entertainment topic, right back to when the first child ever picked up a stick to emulate a sword.

[purepassion 22]

I guess he wants to express the general deception and heroism of war and soldiers and uses videogames as a medium to transport this message in the form of something familiar.

Nice read and a good article!

Thanks for sharing :)

[mr burns 132]

RE the gaming side people who play other FPS games complain about the restrictive movement in Arma2. They never 'get it' no matter how hard you try to explain it. I think the only way would be to dress them in full battle kit and see how far they get sprinting around and jumping off roofs. Passed out with broken ankles after 20mins!

mmh, not d'accord.

One evening we played Reezo´s excellent roadblock duty mission, and the guy who actually did this stuff in his life just utters "this is like real work, haven´t i had enough of this?"

As many ways there are to make something in a videogame more realistic by adding this & that on top of the players shoulders, always bear in mind that it´s a game we play.

Looking at my most recent gaming history, there´s that checklist thing in MS Flight, and god no i don´t want to learn this shit. It makes the whole thing more realistic, but then again some people are happy to have the motor running by a simple button press instead of "oh fuk what have i done wrong this time again".

As for the real topic at hand, which should be named "only a troubled mind copes well with daily basis death & killing" there´s this quote from OFP (B.Bush): War is not nice.

I guess some people who fight wars aren´t nice either :p

[Serclaes 0]

RE the gaming side people who play other FPS games complain about the restrictive movement in Arma2. They never 'get it' no matter how hard you try to explain it. I think the only way would be to dress them in full battle kit and see how far they get sprinting around and jumping off roofs. Passed out with broken ankles after 20mins!

Or just have them hold a rifle and body armor in shooting stance. Switch a little between high ready/low ready. :D

Good read on that article. I think I'd like a closer to reality depiction of war.

[vilas 477]

eh

game is for fun, keeping training reflect and such like, gaming is fun, also technic is nice, but real life is dirty crap

i don't like wars, i don't like politicians, i don't like generals , i don't like PMC ideas , they serve pocket, not "white eagle, history, tradition, religion",

also when there is high-tech against poor people, it is also for me not fair and not good, there are no equality in chances, no warrior ideas, which people fighting martial arts believe,

noone who train Karate would attack man on wheelchair (it would be not honor to attack poor and weak, right?), but some high-tech FLIR with 1 meter of chobban attack old guy with Mosin :/

i believe in army which defend country against attack, but PMCs are for me usual killers and criminals cause they do it for money, not for patriotism and "white eagle"

shame that there are wars abroad countries borders,

from my point of view war should be only against country attacking another country to take their resources (against greed of leaders and elites) or against leaders who oppress nations and put them in poverty (just wonder in dream world special troops killing banksters, presidents of banks, it would be just war, against greed bank managers :) )

unfortunately we will never see US socom attacking big banks and some money-barons :/ cause real opressors of humankind are those monsters in most expensive suits, they made most of suffering, poverty, because of their greed,

but just wars are sometimes called terrorism :/

wars are always caused by small group of most rich and most greed, not by nations , nations only suffer, soldiers die and generals get medals , it should be opposite, those leaders should die and those sons should live with wives, kids, cats, dogs etc. eventually playing war only in games

the less wars the better, cause human suffering and human life is most precious (i don't talk about criminals, burglars, rapists, etc.)

Edited March 2, 2012 by vilas

[onlyrazor 11]

i don't like wars, i don't like politicians, i don't like generals , i don't like PMC ideas , they serve pocket, not "white eagle, history, tradition, religion",

also when there is high-tech against poor people, it is also for me not fair and not good, there are no equality in chances, no warrior ideas, which people fighting martial arts believe,

noone who train Karate would attack man on wheelchair (it would be not honor to attack poor and weak, right?), but some high-tech FLIR with 1 meter of chobban attack old guy with Mosin :/

i believe in army which defend country against attack, but PMCs are for me usual killers and criminals cause they do it for money, not for patriotism and "white eagle"

shame that there are wars abroad countries borders,

I get the gist of what you're saying, but we're back to PMCs being violent criminal scum again. Sure, they might be violent as this W persona said, but criminal scum? Ever heard of Haditha? Any controversy-inspiring war crime perpetrated by the Allies and Axis during the World Wars? PMCs are from far the worst type of people out there, and as a matter of fact, perfectly exemplify human nature. "I'm first." Again, as the article said, those patriot types that return from the wars a couple of appendages light are usually overly-idealistic newcomers. Of course, I'm going along with a stereotype that's probably mostly wrong. Anyway, back on my point, just because they do war for money doesn't mean they are not worthy of some respect from the general public.

/rant

[instagoat 133]

Very clear thoughts. And it makes sense too: War is the most extreme situation a human being can find themselves in, and unless you´re "made" for it (ie, sociopathic, violent and cold), it -will- break you.

I am not sure on the statistics of the guy (with the 20% of people getting PTSD), but I would still love to see characters like -this- be portrayed in a game like Arma. Instead of the hero types. War for wars sake, and all that.

As for PMCs being criminal scum, I think that´s not really correct. They may in many cases be sociopaths, but actual soldiers are no different. A guy that was part of a collaborative writing community I was part of once joined the USMC solely for the reason to get to inflict some real violence on people. Not for country or flag, he simply wanted to go and shoot at people, be a Marine.

War is an unfortunate part of the human condition, and as long as there are people who believe that they need to impose their world view upon others, there will be violence.

As far as games go:

I would love to see a more gritty, realistic, non-propagandistic and -honest- take on what combat is like. No heroes, no princesses in castles, no politics or world-moving stories, just soldiers on the task of the day, trying to get each other trough, and do some damage while being at it.

I hope Arma 3 will come closer to that than any other game before, with the main character not being a knight in shining armour, but a darker, more brutal personality. Along with his buddies.

[vilas 477]

A guy that was part of a collaborative writing community I was part of once joined the USMC solely for the reason to get to inflict some real violence on people. Not for country or flag, he simply wanted to go and shoot at people, be a Marine.

why he was not put to mad-house then ? such cycos should be imprisoned in mad-houses for whole life ,

to be policeman and get pistol there are psychological tests and psychological researches on individual cadet before giving him a pistol

are there no psychological tests in your countries ? guy who wanna murder people cannot have acces to gun

Edited March 2, 2012 by vilas

[seba1976 98]

Am I the only one who's not buying this? Not that I don't agree with what it describes, but I find hilarious that some guy like this one "have an issue with the depiction of war in videogames"... I mean, it seems more like an editorial's interest to write those things. I don't see why the real character would really give a damn.

War is an unfortunate part of the human condition, and as long as there are people who believe that they need to impose their world view upon others, there will be violence.

I think "the real need to impose someone's decision upon limited resources" would be more like it.

I hope Arma 3 will come closer to that than any other game before, with the main character not being a knight in shining armour, but a darker, more brutal personality. Along with his buddies.

Yeah... becouse that was never used before... :)

---------- Post added at 17:10 ---------- Previous post was at 17:03 ----------

guy who wanna murder people cannot have acces to gun

Well... not everyone can play Arma .

[ArmAriffic 10]

http://au.games.ign.com/articles/121/1218964p1.html

here is another one I saw on IGN the other day, it's similar

[PELHAM 10]

why he was not put to mad-house then ? such cycos should be imprisoned in mad-houses for whole life ,

to be policeman and get pistol there are psychological tests and psychological researches on individual cadet before giving him a pistol

are there no psychological tests in your countries ? guy who wanna murder people cannot have acces to gun

Perfectly logical really (fingers crossed)

You can't fight this:

with this:

You see someone has given the first mob, who want to kill someone, some guns and bombs. We need equivalent people to whom we can give guns and bombs or it will not work.

Edited March 2, 2012 by PELHAM

[vilas 477]

those which you shown are in their own HOMELAND not on your territory and they want their countries to follow it's traditions

[PELHAM 10]

Yeah change the argument as soon as you lose it or whatever, but in answer to your original question............

You can't fight this [image above] with this [image above].......right?

[sudayev 27]

"War is a game that is played with a smile. If you can't smile, grin. If you can't grin, keep out of the way 'til you can." W.Churchill

**

Video Games are far from reality. There is no comfy seats, multiples lives and health regen. Real war hurts, degrades and mind twist.

Exactly the same as karate films being far from the real fights.

[vilas 477]

look at WW2 , WW1

people who fought here - defended their homeland countries against aggression from abroad,

not had will to kill and not loved violence , but defended "nation, brothers, fathers, homes"

policeman has psychological tests , he is not cyco, he wants to fight criminals, makes difference

[Smurf 12]

not had will to kill and not loved violence , but defended "nation, brothers, fathers, homes"

Sure....... things were WAY diferent back then.... :rolleyes:

[blu3sman 11]

@vilas Absolute majority of humans are violent. It was so in all times.

[instagoat 133]

War has changed, though. It´s slowly warping as more and more business sees opportunity in the field. We´ve seen the rise of the military industrial complexes both in east and west, proxy wars troughout the century, and now we´ve arrived at the point where we actually are beginning to privatize armies.

If you look at how basic training, bootcamp looks in the US, it is no surprise to see people like this W person. They are honest, they don´t train soldiers to be nice and help build kindergartens, they train soldiers to most effectively destroy other human beings. It is the same for -every- standing army in the world, just that everybody has different excuses for implementing such training programs. Some are big on propaganda, king and country, others promise adventure, but in the end -all- militaries, freedom fighters and terrorist armies are the same.

Ultimately, the attitude is a means to the end. Clausewitz said that war is the continuation of politics by different means. A soldier is a political tool, ultimately, and this tool is designed to destroy the oppositions means to resist whatever policy is supposed to be implemented.

Every soldier that wants to come out of combat with a "healthy mind" needs a certain attitude to protect themselves from what they´re faced with. War being already sick in itself, results in people building sick attitudes to cope.

And if you believe what basic trainers in most militaries say, then there´s a potential killer in all of us. It only needs training, indoctrination and a little bit of twisted psychology to bring him out.

This is one of the reasons why I sometimes feel bad playing pretend soldier in a video game. I´m never sure wether what we´re doing is without value, is war worship, or a criticism of sorts.

[mr burns 132]

people who fought here - defended their homeland countries against aggression from abroad,

not had will to kill and not loved violence , but defended "nation, brothers, fathers, homes"

The most touching statement i´ve ever heard in these regards (never met me grandpas) was from a former landser i got to know during a brief employment at an elder retirement home (sort of thing..),

a bear of a man with hands twice the size of mine, still perfectly and awe inspiring remembering the fear he endured in stalingrad being pounded with "die stalinorgel".

Although sane in usual matters, you knew that man had been broken at some point in his life.

A 'good soldier' isn´t made of patrioty or goodwill.

Same as being brave and wanting to (have smth./sbdy.) survive ain´t the same.

[GRS 10]

I think he can't speak for everyone like him, but I can certainly see where he is coming from. Very interesting read from a very interesting character.

Now what about people forced into service by their country? Just an army of FNG's I guess?