Aliens and UFOs

[-martin- 10]

Hillman Imp car picture

LoL, exactly the same car is parked in a street next to my house, but its brown. It’s been there for so long that it probably has roots

[PELHAM 10]

I really don't understand what your saying here -that because humans have a periodic element table we or you specifically know whats out there :crazy_o:

Just because we know something about the building blocks of life (on Earth) -and even that can evolve such as the discovery of multi celled organisms that don't require oxygen -doesn't mean we know jack about the almost infinte possiblities of different species. Heck, we don't fully know what Dark Energy and Dark Matter is (of course there are theories) and asking an astrophysicist about the environment around the Big Bang you'll hear theories as wild as the craziest Religious types.

If you read back I was saying the evolution of life is tied to stellar and planetary evolution because only hydrogen was available after the big bang. The heavier elements had to be created using nuclear fusion in stars, then planetary formation, time to allow radioactive decay etc.

Go and look at the periodic table and basic biochemistry - you will note that there are few building blocks available and generally they only fit together a certain way. While you can't predict how many legs or eyes an organism will have, there are not an infinite number of options for basic biochemistry, so you can predict that limited range.

Dark matter/dark energy/environmental condition after the big bang aren't really relevant to what I was discussing..

[froggyluv 2136]

Kw8dcb8iKSM

@PELHAM: The point is, even armed with your periodic table none of us has any clue of how varied lifeforms may be in infinite environments. You spoke of Hobgoblins etc... there may very well be creatures that make our fantasy stuff look tame...imagine a human sized virus that lives outside of its host :) Edited February 4, 2012 by froggyluv

[-Puma- 2]

I kinda agree with PELHAM here though. I once read an article, that modern physics is in a crossroads: Do they keep hunting for those big theory`s (1 big unified theory of everything) and allow the theorys to grow and become so complex that only a handful of scientists will be able to understand them. Thats allready happening now with string theories and theories where multiple dimensions are involved. Allso the measurement tools will become so big and expensive, it will be harder to prove the theories right. Without measurement the theories will just be theories. Other road is to focus what we have now, and help develop new technologies for everyday life, wich would be the best, looking at the world we live in now.

[PELHAM 10]

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

@PELHAM: The point is, even armed with your periodic table none of us has any clue of how varied lifeforms may be in infinite environments. You spoke of Hobgoblins etc... there may very well be creatures that make our fantasy stuff look tame...imagine a human sized virus that lives outside of its host :)

1. I was talking about basic biochemistry.

2. There is no such thing as an infinite number of environments, particularly if we are talking about where life can evolve.

3. I'm not particularly interested in the sci-fi field of imaginary monsters. If you want to talk science and sense I will respond, if not......

[froggyluv 2136]

Again I point to your post

You might say it's not possible to know what's out there, I would disagree. Start with the building blocks the universe gave us, the periodic table, and the choices are fairly limited.....

Ok, then please enlighten us scientifically on the exact nature of whats out there...

If your meaning only the elementary 'we know whats out there as they will be built from the same group of elements as we are aware of' - then fair enough but thats hardly the point I was making. And the fact is we haven't discovered all elements yet http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/04/two-new-elements-join-the-periodic-table/ ..so to state we could determine the absolute nature in a 'very limited field' of alien life reeks of the arrogance Dr. Kaku referenced.

Edited February 4, 2012 by froggyluv

[PELHAM 10]

Again I point to your post

Ok, then please enlighten us scientifically on the exact nature of whats out there...

If your meaning only the elementary 'we know whats out there as they will be built from the same group of elements as we are aware of' - then fair enough but thats hardly the point I was making. And the fact is we haven't discovered all elements yet http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/06/04/two-new-elements-join-the-periodic-table/ ..so to state we could determine the absolute nature in a 'very limited field' of alien life reeks of the arrogance Dr. Kaku referenced.

Until you can comprehend what you read and actually understand some basic science I can't enlighten you further about anything much. Your premise that life could be based on large, highly unstable, radioactive elements that can only exist under specific circumstances for a few seconds or milliseconds, perhaps only in nature near stellar cores, is rather bizarre.

Your video of Dr Kaku is about the field of theoretical physics and interplanitary communication not evolution or alien life, so your references are also irrelevant to the discussion at hand. So I can't even be certain you understand your own argument. Feel free to reply, I have better things to do like play Arma 2 and will not be responding further.

[froggyluv 2136]

LOL -condescending much...:icon_rolleyes:

You some how took it upon yourself that all statements based in a UFO & ALIEN thread must be based off your knowledge of Bio-Chemistry.... My intial statement was never meant to be confined in such a limited manner and it's pretty presumptuous of you to demand that. My premise was to illustrate that you are trying to encapsulate all discussion in a field that is inherently fraught with both scientific and wild conjecture by it's very nature.

Good luck knowing all with your ever changing, dynamic periodic table.

[max power 21]

Correction. The formula E = mc ² in theoretical physics is about the relationship between energy (E) in all its forms in addition to mass, and mass (m) using the speed of light in vacuum ©.

String theory on the other hand is a model of physics that describes matter and it's tiniest building blocks. The fundamental building block within the "string theory" is a one-dimensional vibrating "string" which means that they have a spatial dimension unlike previous physical models that were based on zero-dimensional particles.

I don't know why you keep coming back with explanations of theories. They are theories. Please link me to proof of strings that is not a mathematical model that describes a possibility.

Care to elaborate why this is incorrect? :j:

Sure. One statement does not imply the other.

Clearly you misunderstood. I used a different approach to explain the very same thing. Correct me if I'm wrong but, the topic of this thread "Aliens and UFOs" is to discuss the possibility of extra-terrestrials visiting us and whether interstellar travel is possible or not.

That has nothing to do with what you were talking about in the first place, unless you are attempting to say that the kooky topic of the thread justifies other, unrelated, scientific moonchild dreaming and other pseudometaphysical subject matter. You said that all matter is energy and all energy, matter. What you are talking about when you are invoking the laws of conservation of matter and energy and the energy content of matter, is objective reality. Objective reality does not depend on your ability to perceive.

I think what you're trying to say is that based on string theory, there is a possibility that we are not able to perceive all of the forms that strings can take. Generally, that statement is true. Perhaps we can't interact with our universe on every level that is possible. The problem is that you're basing this stuff on string theory, which is not verifiable, and using other physics theories or maxims to describe a psychological limitation.

---------- Post added at 16:24 ---------- Previous post was at 16:19 ----------

Until you can comprehend what you read and actually understand some basic science I can't enlighten you further about anything much.

PELHAM

I am getting tired of your flamebaiting.

Until you comprehend basic social graces, and read and actually understand the forum rules, there is not much I can do enlighten you about your conduct, except start issuing infractions. Please tone down your rhetoric.

[STALKERGB 6]

BALLS!

Apparently they have an explanation for you Blue Balls walker...

That said, they look a bit like Xploderz ammo to me, basically the same as the explanation above but still:

Your premise that life could be based on large, highly unstable, radioactive elements that can only exist under specific circumstances for a few seconds or milliseconds, perhaps only in nature near stellar cores, is rather bizarre

Bizarre maybe, but that doesn't always mean impossible does it?

Edited February 5, 2012 by STALKERGB

[-Snafu- 78]

As SA says, Ancient Aliens is quite interesting if you sift through the BS that is in there.

Sorry, but I just don't see it, unless you're hinting at something different when you say 'interesting'. The show has numerous flaws in argument and methodology that I don't see how it can be taken seriously.

On the other hand, there are hundreds of books, journal articles and documentaries out there on the ancient world, created by actual trained historians and archaeologists who have spent years at university, sifting through archives, on hundreds of digs and who continuously debate on their topics that will give one a more accurate and interesting analysis of ancient history.

[STALKERGB 6]

Sorry, but I just don't see it, unless you're hinting at something different when you say 'interesting'. The show has numerous flaws in argument and methodology that I don't see how it can be taken seriously.

Lol I find UFO Hunters interesting but I don't take it seriously, same with Ancient Aliens, regardless of things like proper methodology i personally always find it interesting to see the ideas and views people come up with, doesn't mean I believe those viewpoints but also doesn't make them any less interesting.

[walker 0]

Hi all

It is possible that there may be stable trans-uranic elements but such elements would be unlikely to be created naturally and as such, other than an artificially created source, the probability of their existence would be very low. Conversely the probability that a life form could use them as part of their chemistry is quite high though. The reason being that if they exist it would be an advanced civilization that created them and they would only create them in any numbers if there was a significant advantage in their use. Applying a version of the Anthropic principle of course.

On the matter of other chemistry for life. Carbon is the dominant element because it is capable of forming complex macro and long chain molecules of varying geometries; it is that complexity that is needed for the diversity from which life can evolve but silicon might be a possible life form building block as it is capable of a degree of complexity in its molecular arrangement.

Also a self organizing life form based on different temperatures and pressures is a possibility. Theoreticaly self organization and information retention at superconducting temperatures are a possibility. Chemistry at high pressure is significantly different to how we experience chemistry here at one earth atmosphere, so exotic life forms on gas giant are a possibility. A life form based on high temperature and pressure plasma is less likely but one never knows.

I consider life to be anything with the capabilities for self replication, comprehension of self and environment and motivation to adjust both itself or its environment to further its existence, I include forms of existence created by other life forms, so I am using a broad brush.

Of course one then has to also therefor accept the possibility of life forms based not on chemistry but on self organization under aspects of exotic physics and mathematics.

Kind regards walker

Edited February 6, 2012 by walker
clarity and punctuation

[-Snafu- 78]

Lol I find UFO Hunters interesting but I don't take it seriously, same with Ancient Aliens, regardless of things like proper methodology i personally always find it interesting to see the ideas and views people come up with, doesn't mean I believe those viewpoints but also doesn't make them any less interesting.

I enjoy a bit of sci-fi now and then as well, like Stargate SG-1, but not on The History Channel.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Snafu

[mrcash2009 0]

Well we all have no knowledge of anything past a few miles above on personal level, but above that you have a select section that do, most of these have questionable affiliations to groups that aren't in anyone's real interest. So I would say that its all pure speculation, and going by allot of black tech we never see can also be quite a down to earth man made psyop that lasted years and through films (everything is alien this and alien that through hollywood).

So as much as its nice to think about it all or the subject as interesting it can also be looked and as manipulation, which is perfect to rain in a new belief "system" which would mirror the likes of second coming, yet this would be a orchestrated one, and no one can possibly say any of it would be for your benefit what so ever. I always say, watch the E.T groups run at it if the big wigs came on TV in a disclosure announcement, no different that yet another organised religion (and they would shout down the "other lot" in a nice face off) nicely played off one another.

So, I will sit on a big fence and take any move to "disclosure" with a pinch of salt and not run at it as full blown truth no question if that situation occurs.

@ABS:

Actualy this chart should be, green all the way through to now, and the black section changed to "Catholosism" not pure "Christian" (there is a destinction) thats actualy not correct at all.

But, anyway thats a bit off topic from this UFO thing, that said I still look at videos and things, but I dont auto think "aliens" "far away visitors" I now think ... "Unreleased tech" and so on along side.

[gammadust 12]

Strings theory, periodic table, standard model, atoms, quarks and gluons, light, matter, spheres, energies, vibrations, harmonics, music, gravity... where's that "Theory of Everything" Einstein persued so much?

Really, we conjecture "space == time", as in, Universe being 13.7 Billion years old implying simultaneously the biggest distances we are able to conceive. Constricting the magnitudes of comprehension to a maximum of 10^(~120), right there where the base the exponent applies to becomes irrelevant, there where only the precision/error of/in measurement allows furthering conjecture, there where the small is energetic and the big is spacial...

Time, much more then equating to money, equates to "everything", the individual, as a "time" user, is allowed to manage "what to be done?" with it.

We can choose to spend one's "brain time" in a dreamworld, one does this one 3rd of one's life already when sleeping, leaving the remaining two 3rds between additional mythology and concrete science. Where is the useful frontier is usually how "plausible" that time user finds some "thing" to be.

Ie. "Working" is plausible, it is concrete, it is purposeful, in normal conditions, useful as it brings prosperity (not necessarily a happy life). "Praying" (to gods) is plausible, it is concrete, it is purposeful, depending on culture, useful as it earns you peace of mind (not necessarily a place in heaven).

For a true science investigator, String Theory is bollocks, since it is "armored" to the point of disallowing any objective verification/falsification, can't be peer reviewed unless as an hipothesis. Still an hipothesis is an essential part of scientific method. A conceptual scientist can and should dedicate some time exploring the possibility, finding ways to make it useful science, allow for experimental validation. Grow knowledge in the way, serendipity is also to factor in.

String Theory may be plausible, it is NOT concrete, only as a "material abstraction", despite purposeful, conditions are still to be seen to make it useful and profitable (wider sense), who knows if it will make us happy and peaceful.

Aliens... fill in the voids. Would I spend time discussing them? Only in the sense that mythology can also be useful for one to spend some time with. I like to spend more time beyond just hipothesis.

Remember though that knowledge revolutions happen, see "Earth is Flat" of 4 centuries ago. How could one begin to comprehend today's gravity conceiving earth as flat? What does it mean when something is falling? Falling where to? Is a "straight line" a straight line? Can we actually draw a square? How useful are the imperfect squares we are able to build? How much intrumental error is tolerable? Are perfect squares plausible?

Remember also that once we were animists, pantheists, etc, to lately becoming generaly monotheists; rituals, culture and mythology had their own revolutions. Did it change anything? Did we become assured of mind peacefulness by devotion alone? Is there a sure path for earning our place in heaven? Can we be sure there is such a place? What do we become after our atoms are no more then stardust? Does our soul, or spirit, keeps an eternal presence?

The latter is more "armored" mythology, note that I am not saying it is worthless and not useful, and I do enjoy philosophy issues, excuse double redundancy.

tl;dr

Don't spend too much time with stuff with low levels of plausibility.

Time is of universal essence, use it as well as you are able to comprehend it. It will get you to "places". ;)

"There is nothing more pratical then a good theory." This is what I consider true "pragmatism".

[Nicholas 5]

Something related: Mars 'Super-Drought' May Make Red Planet Too Dry for Alien Life. The thing that really bothers me is that everyone thinks that lifeforms must be like what we have on earth.

It's like when everyone thought that the earth was the center of the galaxy and everything revolved around us. The same thing goes for aliens, just because the building blocks of life on earth is carbon does not mean it's the same everywhere else. Yeah sure, it's highly possible that carbon may be the building blocks of life elsewhere, but maybe there are lifeforms made from Boron or something.

[Mark1028 10]

Hot news:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/02/14/eisenhower-and-the-aliens-former-us-president-had-three-secret-meetings-with-extra-terrestrials_n_1275692.html?ref=uk

[-martin- 10]

Hot news:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/02/14/eisenhower-and-the-aliens-former-us-president-had-three-secret-meetings-with-extra-terrestrials_n_1275692.html?ref=uk

He looks like an extra-terrestrial on that photo himself lol.

This isn’t true obviously, just cold war crap. Why would they send the president to meet with aliens, instead of scientist who actually know a bit about anything. It seems to me that the US government consultant just wanted to make a quick buck on the story, if he even existed in the first place.

This gives me a good idea tough, I’m going to write a book that Iran is in contact with aliens and they are enriching uranium because that’s what the aliens use to keep themselves alive, and they are also working with Russia and China, and apparently they developed glowing green Borshch and flying chopsticks, which can fly like arrows and poke enemy soldiers on the battlefield. :butbut:

[abs 2]

...glowing green Borshch...

Sounds delicious!

Abs