Will this version get some polishing, or is it another sputtering Ferrari?

[Libertine 1]

The teamwork part of the Ai i would think is more complex than other games. But its also completely absent in all likelihood from games like HL2 and CoD where they are probably on their own, not to mention so completely scripted. Thus, they don't need group ai. In some other respects maybe yes, like the ability to follow in a formation or change formations, not all game have, or need that based on the type of gameplay. Not all games have states of awareness either, but don't need them either. Ai in a game like CoD is probably almost always in the "engage the player" mode.

Yet in the vision and combat dept, i see no evidence of them being more complicated. What evidence do you have? I have seen that youtube video of the Arma2 Ai vs. Ofp2 Ai, but the Ofp2 Ai were just terrible to begin with. In CoD, Ai will advance and retreat from cover to cover, i don't see Arma doing that, do they ever take cover? Maybe the new patches have made a difference?

What I would like a more complex version of the current Ai system so i can do close-in stealth missions. Based on my experience i will be seen only based on simple range, FoV and A.I. state checks.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Libertine

[Nicholas 5]

In CoD, Ai will advance and retreat from cover to cover, i don't see Arma doing that, do they ever take cover?

You must not be paying enough attention then. Open up Zargabad and place BLUFOR and OPFOR groups. Set a waypoint for each group to just move near each other. Eventually they will engage and start taking cover.

I just did this a few seconds ago, no scripting was involved:

As you can see, this soldier is using the wall for cover. He is behind the wall leaning out. At the same time, he is looking back and forth for other potential dangers.

[NeMeSiS 11]

In CoD, Ai will advance and retreat from cover to cover, i don't see Arma doing that, do they ever take cover? Maybe the new patches have made a difference?

CoD AI moves at predefined times to randomly chosen but predefined cover nodes, which looks pretty cool but of course not comparable to a game like ArmA at all.

[Libertine 1]

@Dice: Thats good to see, i don't believe ive seen that once. But my real issue is detection.

@NeMesis: Of course its comparable. You can compare the planet Mars to a fork if you want. People saying "its not comparable" is a weird fad that needs to stop.

Update: I just uninstalled ACE and the other mod and downloaded a few missions and now the Ai didn't detect me like they had radar, so it was ACE. I've never played without ace. However this was a night mission, i still need to test the day time missions. I had another problem come up though. I download these mission here and played the "shadow killer" mission just now. I played on normal and the Ai couldn't see well at all, which was realistic and great. However, i set some satchels, per my task, then went up a hill to watch the resulting chaos and laid down in thick grass that had bushes between me and the Ai. I was in almost total darkness. A few seconds after i remotely touched off the bombs a bullet wizzed over my head from behind the bushes. Even if there weren't bushed there, they should not have been able to see me. A bmp rushing past me on the road saw me, then killed me. There was no way in hell they should have seen me. Thats my main issue. I really want to be able to sneak around and do covert stuff.

[NeMeSiS 11]

@NeMesis: Of course its comparable. You can compare the planet Mars to a fork if you want. People saying "its not comparable" is a weird fad that needs to stop.

Well you can compare them, but saying that the CoD AI looks really fancy when taking cover and the ArmA AI looks retarded when taking cover, while true, is a pretty useless statement as the CoD AI just has some predefined points so the AI already know where good cover is. Since ArmA has a much more dynamic nature good cover positions have to be found on the fly which is a lot harder to do.

Just as saying 'Forks as much better than Mars' is a pretty useless statement on its own, while saying 'Forks are much better than Mars because they make it easier to eat steak, even though Mars is prettier to look at' resembles a more coherent argument.

Saying 'just make it better!' is a crappy suggestion if you dont take the background of the game into account.

[purepassion 22]

and played the "shadow killer" mission just now. I played on normal and the Ai couldn't see well at all, which was realistic and great. However, i set some satchels, per my task, then went up a hill to watch the resulting chaos and laid down in thick grass that had bushes between me and the Ai. I was in almost total darkness. A few seconds after i remotely touched off the bombs a bullet wizzed over my head from behind the bushes. Even if there weren't bushed there, they should not have been able to see me. A bmp rushing past me on the road saw me, then killed me. There was no way in hell they should have seen me. Thats my main issue.

Well then it's a good thing that this is an recently solved bug :p

[Libertine 1]

I'm playing the steam version which is updated automatically, how can i check that im using the latest patch?

[Dwarden 1125]

You should go read about how A.I. vision usually works, its much simpler than i think you realize. Or don't, it kinda disappointing. Bushes and other things that block vision likely just a very simple collision box around them to trigger a sound made while running through them, trigger leaves coming off when bullets pass through and that same simple box is likely used to determine line-of-sight exists [to part your collision box]. If the player is within a pre-determined visual range which depends on the awareness state of the a.i. {ie. relaxed, active, searching} AND, the player is within the Ai FoV, AND a cast ray from the Ai can hit the player's collision box, then the player is seen. The problem is that the rays can go through a one mm wide gap in collision boxes. The more A.i. that can exist at one time, the simpler they need to be in general.

However, I'm starting to think the particular vision problem i noticed was really a problem of the ACE mod rather than with Arma though. If 6th Sense was still going, i'd probably bring this to their attention as i think it would make getting in and around the enemy more easy and realistic. Not so completely range based.

no comment, aka ...

you talk about ARMA 1 state while A2/OA and A3 are somewhere else ...

Dev blog about ARMA 2 vegetation

[runforrest 10]

the version number is displayed at the bottom right in the main menu (start screen)

A few seconds after i remotely touched off the bombs a bullet wizzed over my head from behind the bushes. Even if there weren't bushed there, they should not have been able to see me.

as PurePassion already mentioned this was bug since ArmA1 :eek: and is fixed now with OA Patch 1.60

I really want to be able to sneak around and do covert stuff.

i wanted that too, had man ideas and tried alot of stuff in the editor... long story short... i gave up :rolleyes:

theres 1 simple test u can do to test AI regarding stealth missions:

choose daytime night

put 1 simple soldier (no specop or sniper etc..) on skill 0 in editor

put urself 50m behind it

start mission

now try to get as close to him as possible in different stances and movespeeds

i dont know which version or beta patch it was(mabye only Arma2 no OA)

it WAS possible to get very close and do a scripted melee attack and take him down

try this with newest patch - its impossible! closest destination that i could achieve is 10m, than he will turn around ! and even if it was possible - as soon as the AI is in danger mode all stealth is gone - at least thats my experience.

In CoD, Ai will advance and retreat from cover to cover, i don't see Arma doing that, do they ever take cover?

as far as i can see it, this was improved ALOT with the last patch

again simple test:

put an enemy squad in the editor

put urself 100m or so away from them behind a building where they cant see u (but in their viewdirection)

start mission

lean around the corner and shoot at them

wait a bit

than observe what the enemy AI is doing: they take cover behind everything, even smallest bushes !!

ive never seen that before! :)

You should go read about how A.I. vision usually works, its much simpler than i think you realize. Or don't, it kinda disappointing. Bushes and other things that block vision likely just a very simple collision box around them to trigger a sound made while running through them, trigger leaves coming off when bullets pass through and that same simple box is likely used to determine line-of-sight exists [to part your collision box]

simple collision box and simple view block model - hmm i think thats not true, look here: http://www.bistudio.com/english/company/developers-blog/87-arma2-vegetation-progress-2 :)

n the first picture you see the results, color parts shows components, how they're located by Linda - ArmA 2 (right), gray picture original geometry LOD fom Armed Assault (left). See how much more precise it is, much more then the original hand made one in Armed Assault. We hope that it will resolve most of the ingame troubles, such as: "I can see but not shoot, or AI can spot me though dense vegetation...".

what i see more as the main problem is what they write a few sentences below:

In our engine the AI try to spot you through the View Geometry, just a small part of your body is enough to be able to recognize and track you. When this view geometry is not masking foliage well, the chance that you will be spotted is high.

so a colour-based-detection approach seems quite logical (although i have no idea how this can be done - must be damn hard- else there would be a solution already from any developer)

edit

lol Dwarden was, again, a bit faster :D

[rainbird 1]

I wonder if the AI spotting of ARMA takes into account human perceptual failings or if it relies only on the outcome of the spotting algorithm?

I mean, it's not uncommon for humans to fail to see what is in front of their eyes when looking for something. This makes them less efficient than AI visual detection algorithms and should really be modelled in AI attempting to simulate human behaviour.

I'm sure BIS model the perceptual failings of humans in some way, but just a though...

blah blah blah...I'm sure all that kicks in to varying degrees when you lower the difficulty which is why don't get shot as often at lower settings. :)

Edited January 17, 2012 by rainbird

[Libertine 1]

no comment, aka ...

you talk about ARMA 1 state while A2/OA and A3 are somewhere else ...

Im talking about 1 and 2, not OA though, i haven't installed that since I don't like desert environments for some reason unless their hugely mountainous like real life Afghanistan, although OAs desert maps are the best i've seen btw and unsurprisingly beautiful, you guys always kick ass in the art dept. A mountainous snow map ever coming btw? ;)

Thanks for the link. I found out the ACE mod was really the main culprit for the "radar vision" the AI had. However its not the only problem. I just redownloaded Arma2 and reinstalled and still have the other issues with AI. I can't do many types of covert/in-close mission. I'm seen too much or other weird stuff happens. It says Arma 2 version 1.11.86734. Going by Steam's news for this game im confused, they mention a 1.11 and a 1.6. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Downloading OA now...

Just now i killed a few soldiers on patrol with a silenced MP5 and BMPs far in the distance came rushing over, even though they didn't fire a shot. Then they saw me in deep grass. Are they using FLIR, like in Apache helicopters? That would make sense, but the player should be notified they have this. Are suppressors not silent, like in real life, thus the other soldiers in town 300 meters away called them? The sound effect doesn't reflect loud supressors, its very quiet. This is the same mission i mentioned before, "Shadow Killer".

---------- Post added at 02:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:02 AM ----------

the version number is displayed at the bottom right in the main menu (start screen) ive never seen that before! :)

It says 1.11.86734. Do i have to have OA installed for 1.6?

EDIT: I guess it does. Downloading OA now...

I just saw this too, i soldier too cover behind a small post. No enough cover, but i certainly would too in real life, it was all he had. Its interesting that there is a danger of course in going to far with AI. Real life fire fights can take days.

simple collision box and simple view block model - hmm i think thats not true, look here: http://www.bistudio.com/english/company/developers-blog/87-arma2-vegetation-progress-2 :)

Yes, but if the Ai still only need a small section of yoru body to detect you, just for a millisecond, its still going to be a problem. Which mean i agree with you, i think.

so a colour-based-detection approach seems quite logical (although i have no idea how this can be done - must be damn hard- else there would be a solution already from any developer)

Heres an idea i had years ago that i hope DirectX (and Bis) developers start using:

An Ai visual detection system based on actual color, possibly using an older secondary video card like PhysX can working in tandem with the game engine. It involves taking a low resolution screenshot of the player and randomly analyzing a sample of pixels around the player and comparing that to a random sample of pixels of the player and comparing the difference. Players with a separate video card could up the amount of sampling and the resolution of the shots and the amount of shots over time. The difference shouldn't be the only factor of course, player movement speed, actions as well and Ai's speed, current actions, Ai current awareness state, etc should factor in too.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Libertine

[metalcraze 290]

FYI BMP crews have NVGs (referring to zomg it was too dark how did bmp saw me in the previous post)

Just now i killed a few soldiers on patrol with a silenced MP5 and BMPs far in the distance came rushing over, even though they didn't fire a shot.

You mean you were killing soldiers and surviving ones called in reinforcements since that's what patrols do? Impossible! IRL soldiers just run around randomly just like in BF

Also why shouldn't they see you in Chernarussian grass? It isn't "deep" by any means and you push it down when lying down.

http://i41.tinypic.com/eq82q.jpg (related to another argument though but it shows that grass is not anything you make it to be.)

Stop the drama, learn to play.

Edited January 17, 2012 by metalcraze

[Tonci87 163]

@Libertine you really shouldn´t complain about bugs if you don´t have the latest version!

Please install OA apply Patch 1.6 and the newest Beta, download the latest Version of ACE and then test again.

[Minoza 11]

Im talking about 1 and 2, not OA though, i haven't installed that since I don't like desert environments for some reason unless their hugely mountainous like real life Afghanistan, although OAs desert maps are the best i've seen btw and unsurprisingly beautiful, you guys always kick ass in the art dept. A mountainous snow map ever coming btw? ;)

...

And you're still wrong, cause 1 and 2 use different system. 1 uses system you mentioned, 2 uses same system as OA.

[Dwarden 1125]

the OA is improved over A2 for AI ... lot of tweaks and bug fixes in OA don't exist in A2

the viewblock volumes are indeed better in A2/OA over A1

(not everything was possible to backport)

[frostwyrm333 1]

talking about vegetation, I'm happy that BI decided to go with some sort of detailed billboarding http://www.arma3.com/full/wp-content/gallery/imagery/arma3_screenshot_1107_048.jpg, A2 vegetation http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/5071/arma2defaut.png is great, but it IMO too much, like an explosion of pixels, without AA it just one big aliasing mess, when you look directly on some large tree, the GPU is choking.

Another thing, if you look at this screenshot http://www.arma3.com/full/wp-content/gallery/imagery/scr01.jpg you can notice that lod distance is sheer insanity, you can basically see 5 villages in the background, impossible performance killer with A2, I would like to know how did they manage that, experimental settings and clever screenshot grab or optimizations.

[BobcatBob 10]

the OA is improved over A2 for AI ... lot of tweaks and bug fixes in OA don't exist in A2

the viewblock volumes are indeed better in A2/OA over A1

(not everything was possible to backport)

Will there be much of a change in vegitation systmes for players/AI in Arma 3 or will it be just like OA?

[Dwarden 1125]

next to grass issue what you want to change or improve on vegetation system ?

add partial transparency for the line of sight?

[Defunkt 431]

Another thing, if you look at this screenshot http://www.arma3.com/full/wp-content/gallery/imagery/scr01.jpg you can notice that lod distance is sheer insanity, you can basically see 5 villages in the background, impossible performance killer with A2, I would like to know how did they manage that, experimental settings and clever screenshot grab or optimizations.

I'd also like to know more about this, visual fidelity (ground textures & clutter) at mid-to-long ranges, view distance and object pop-in is IMHO the biggest factor in the current iteration of the engine showing its age. A2 still looks best-of-breed up to the extent of clutter but looks very 'Flashpoint' at longer distances. A3 screenshots suggest improvements here but there's no way of knowing if the configurations used for these shots will yield playable framerates. Related to this is the terrain resolution (big map = no micro terrain, micro-terrain == small map/poor framerates), A3 is moving to DX10/11, do we know if this means DirectX (I would suppose then; hardware accelerated) Tessellation?

[frostwyrm333 1]

no, we don't know anything except mentioned stuff.

they will have to reveal everything sooner or later. (later)

[BobcatBob 10]

next to grass issue what you want to change or improve on vegetation system ?

add partial transparency for the line of sight?

I know nothing about these things to really complain, I was just wondering if you guys had any plans to let us know about :)

[zilfondel 11]

<Reply to OP>

Really, the AI is why you haven't even tried the free version of Arma2?

When playing Arma2, I generally just treat the enemy like real people: the AI is generally pretty damned realistic. This isnt the old days of Doom2 when you can "trick" the AI to do certain things based on simplistic AI algorithms.

Also, the AI is random enough that you really never know what the AI will do - which is also pretty realistic. Especially when fighting idiot uneducated tribesmen wielding AK-47s.

And yes, you can shoot through grass. So can they. And you both will.

[metalcraze 290]

I don't think there's really a grass issue.

Because I don't understand why people complain that they get shot in a low grass (which 95% of grass on Chernarus is) by AI when they can do exactly the same to AI (and it won't complain) or get shot by other players. A player can see AI lying in the grass, why shouldn't it be vice versa?

I think the real issue is called "why can't I just kill enemies mindlessly and not suffer any consequences like in arcade shooters" as evidenced by "I was killing AIs and enemy BMPs came to investigate - unrealistik!1".

[Nicholas 5]

Here is a post from "Cookieeater" a while ago about the grass when laying down:

People in real life can easily see through grass when hiding because they have 2 eyes. Inside ArmA II they can't because technically everyone is a cyclops. With 2 eyes that are at slightly different distances, one eye can see what the other can't.

This picture is a good example if you have viewed stereo photography before:

The only game that has kind of compensated for it is Battlefield Vietnam where grass near player becomes transparent. It would be much more realistic for people going prone to see through the grass, they'd be more like ambushers instead of sitting ducks.

[froggyluv 2136]

I think the real issue is called "why can't I just kill enemies mindlessly and not suffer any consequences like in arcade shooters" as evidenced by "I was killing AIs and enemy BMPs came to investigate - unrealistik!1".

Hehe, I think your probably right. Still, it's possible to go rambo on the AI -just played Cleansweep from the CWR2 missions and took out the whole force alone (14 kills iirc) after a couple of pretty fun failed attempts in which AI were leaning out from cover and shooting me thru the window to the house I was in.

Trick seemed to be -keep moving. Much like the ending of 28 Days Later you just gotta become the zombie and attack from all angles, reloading on the fly and shoot to kill.

These game will NEVER have perfect AI -they can be damn stupid sometimes but can also provide some slam/bam entertainment.