SOPA - Internet as we know it about to be gone?

[mrcash2009 0]

@Cash No one is that perfect, if they had been conducting industrial espionage there would have been a few incidents here and there.

Did I say they had? No I didn't (read my post that you always suddenly dont understand), what I am saying is posting prove it all the time doesn't = nothing happens, nor does official documents for the public.

What you say is yet more conspiracy theory and most of what you write doesn't make sense.

Bored with your snipes mate, meaningless to the thread as normal, if most of it doesn't make sense, why reply ;)

Edited July 3, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

So what you're suggesting is in the last 50 years the USA has suffered numerous setbacks, arrests, expulsions, outings and leaks but have a 100% perfect track record in industrial espionage? That doesn't stand up to scrutiny at all does it? How can they fail so badly at everything else and yet be so perfect at industrial espionage? Occam's Razor fella, it's more likely that they don't do it, as their official policy states. That is why I say you don't make logical sense.

current US policy, as recommended by Gates, does not include providing private business with government intelligence data for commercial gain

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol37no2/html/v37i2a02p_0001.htm

Edited July 3, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[mrcash2009 0]

So what you're suggesting is in the last 50 years the USA has suffered numerous setbacks, arrests, expulsions, outings and leaks but have a 100% perfect track record in industrial espionage?

So this nice little gold star/clean sheet for the agencies means that you still acknowledging "everything else" and yet we are all paranoid theorists? Thats what im getting at the most and not suggesting, hence the doublethink and straw-man arguments.

How can they fail so badly at everything else and yet be so perfect at industrial espionage? Occam's Razor fella, it's more likely that they don't do it, as their official policy states.

Thats isnt a 100 percent, and as you always ask for proof to everyone else, you dont have that assurance other than official sources (need to know basis) and simplest explanations. Then again, I didn't say they do it either, what it does do is show how you contradict yourself in this thread as "everything else" IS the point of this thread, which you claim we are paranoid about or theorists for highlighting and focusing on as well as anti government suggestions.

Edited July 3, 2013 by mrcash2009

[NoRailgunner 0]

BTW Norailgunner, watch out, becuase next you will be "Anti US" ... I had that thrown at me a few times, which was ludicrous, as this crap is global.

Lol, there are so many proud & blind nationalist/patriots or *placecountryname*-bots online.... They don't want to know, see, hear or think anything else than *placecountryname* strong/1st/l33t/... !! For some people the world is just better black and white only - anything else would make them nervous and uncomfortable. ;)

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

@NoRailgunner - If you have some evidence, lets hear it please. All I see is blind hatred. Do you have any solid reasoning behind it? I am quite prepared to change my mind if shown the relevant evidence, but in all these long debates, it never happens. If you are correct - prove it, that's all I ever ask.

@ Cash - No I didn't say that did I? But since you asked, yes I still think you are paranoid and a conspiracy theorist for suggesting that the USA conducts industrial espionage and mass surveillance of individuals when they obviously don't. What they do is actively spy on governments, military capability, criminals, terrorists and hoard data just like everyone else, that is what they have been caught doing over the last 50 years and is official policy.

Where you catch the USA out is to find them doing something that is contrary to official policy or telling fibs. That would be news and a real story, so far there is nothing. What is news, is the 50 or so Russians and Chinese caught on US soil with data from US businesses, where are the US spies acting in a similar way? That would be your evidence for industrial espionage and it doesn't exist.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[mrcash2009 0]

Where you catch the USA out is to find them doing something that is contrary to official policy or telling fibs.

You clearly live on a planet I do not reside. As I say, whistle-blowers show the "fibs" and contrary acts, but that's then explained away as "what they do any other time like everything else", like I say .. doublethink runs strong. As regards industrial espionage I never said they did at any point, but pointing fingers at how bad others are doesn't make anyone squeaky clean its just deflection and your mixing them all together and they are separate.

you are paranoid and a conspiracy theorist for suggesting that the USA conducts industrial espionage and mass surveillance of individuals when they obviously don't. What they do is actively spy on governments, military capability, criminals, terrorists and hoard data just like everyone else

Just for the record you have me as paranoid becuase "I" suggest it? Its in the news for every individual to see for themselves, I dont have to suggest a thing, im not doing it.

You might want to read this thread and about SOPA and every other piece of legislation in regards to "key words" (I posted this a few pages back that you ignored) on what allows data mining based on as the go ahead ... your missing a massive cavern of detail. The use of terrorist laws and what's under the umbrella of criminal and terror has been blurred for 15 years now with all kinds of law changes. If you think that looking at bad men in the world means other peoples data cannot get caught in the net through its process then you are living in a perfect world, never read this thread and ignoring aspects including PRISM details which should tell you all you need to know.

For example you mentioned in this thread about the PRISM creating only a certain small amount of cases, ignoring the fact that to get the cases the "hoard" of data wasn't simply a list of bad men to focus on only. All this legislation is slowly pre-crime based and isn't solely executed on intel of an individual, its on ongoing live process, and that being the case we all must be potential criminals and terrorists going by that logic.

For example:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23125509

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/national/inner-workings-of-a-top-secret-spy-program/282/

But I guess an official website will say the contrary, one day mate the penny might drop, but I wont hold my breath :)

Some funny examples similar to how you post about this, are general people, mates, work friends etc etc. They all at a drop of a hat would say "paranoid" and "conspiracy theory" in certain discussions and yet if you say "I posted online about questioning the government" you watch how many will say "Really? Watch out if your posting things like that online" ... now, going by the fact its all conspiracy theory and paranoid which one sounds more like it? And ... if there is "nothing to hide or worry about", why in the back of peoples minds would they say that? Surely there is no need ... that would be paranoid. :)

Edited July 3, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

I have no idea, why they would say that? Perhaps paranoid people have paranoid friends?

One of the reasons I don't worry is based on the PRISM leaks themselves:

The evidence that mass surveillance does not occur is on the slide - I'll give you a cookie if you find it.

[mrcash2009 0]

I have no idea, why they would say that? Perhaps paranoid people have paranoid friends?

You missed the point perfectly.

The evidence that mass surveillance does not occur is on the slide - I'll give you a cookie if you find it.

Strawman mania rides again ;)

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

No cookies for you!

[NoRailgunner 0]

Mattar_Tharkari isn't it you who should be interested in whom + why you trust? If you only believe in official sources - you will only get the official version. If you can live with that, its all fine - if not do some work on your own and don't wait until someone else presents another version just how you like/accept it.... ;)

[oxmox 73]

The current spying scandal isnt the first one.

In the year 2000, before the 911 incident, there was a huge spying scandal. The Project was called "Echolon". The EU blamed that the aim of the project was aswell economic espionage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/820758.stm

Edited July 3, 2013 by oxmox

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

That is not stealing technology for economic gain - there is a difference. They simply made it known that they would expose anyone accepting a bribe to unfairly influence a contract and did so in Brazil and Saudi Arabia. Is there really anything wrong with that? What you have shown is that 13 years ago the USA was having a similar argument with the EU over bribes / corruption. The EU has since cleaned up it's act and brought criminal charges against some of the those involved.

it states quite clearly that the United States does not engage in industrial espionage in the sense of collecting or even sorting intelligence that it collects overseas for the benefit of and to be given to American corporations.

http://cryptome.org/echelon-cia.htm

When we have caught you at it, you might be interested, we haven't said a word to the U.S. companies in the competition. Instead we go to the government you're bribing and tell its officials that we don't take kindly to such corruption.

http://cryptome.org/echelon-cia2.htm

That is exactly the point I was making and it is confirmed in the EU report by Campbell. Russia and China steal technology and data and pass it on to private business for profit, the USA doesn't. That is the argument they are having and is the basis for the smear campaigns and the Russian involvement with Assange and Snowden.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[oxmox 73]

I use reputeable press sources and post about it, thats it. :)

The following was said in the BBC article:

"... former CIA director James Woolsey, in an article in March for the Wall Street Journal, acknowledged that the US did conduct economic espionage against its European allies, though he did not specify if Echelon was involved. "

When it comes to the Echolon project, it just says that such scandals are not new except the scale and methodes in the current spying scandal which got exposed. This is the main reason why I did post about it.

By the way, since you are talking about the types of espionage. Wikipedia has a definition of it, just to make sure I understand you correct:

Industrial espionage, economic espionage or corporate espionage is a form of espionage conducted for commercial purposes instead of purely national security purposes. Economic espionage is conducted or orchestrated by governments and is international in scope, while industrial or corporate espionage is more often national and occurs between companies or corporations

Edited July 4, 2013 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

Really USA?

http://cheezburger.com/7628901120

Really?

Oh, the US postal service USPS photographs all the mail that is send via their service....

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

I use reputeable press sources and post about it, thats it. :)

But do you understand them? Do you actually understand the argument between the USA, China and Russia? I have given you transcripts of the actual speech, what the man himself said, word for word. How do you get more accurate than that?

What you posted is more evidence showing the USA doesn't steal technology for economic gain, thanks for backing me up! :)

Oh, the US postal service USPS photographs all the mail that is send via their service....

Yes they do photograph the outside of all mail - why do you think that is?

Ever heard of people sending parcel bombs and poison letters?

Do you remember all the people that died from Anthrax infections after receiving and handling contaminated mail? The program was started after that.

How do you think they were able to trace the person sending ricin letters so quickly? By examining information from the front and back images of 60 pieces of mail scanned immediately before and after the ricin mail. That's what it's used for, it means anyone trying to kill people is discovered more quickly:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/08/nyregion/texas-woman-arrested-in-connection-with-ricin-laced-letters.html

Edited July 4, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[mrcash2009 0]

Yes they do photograph the outside of all mail - why do you think that is?

Ever heard of people sending parcel bombs and poison letters?

Do you remember all the people that died from Anthrax infections after receiving and handling contaminated mail? The program was started after that.

How do you think they were able to trace the person sending ricin letters so quickly? By examining information from the front and back images of 60 pieces of mail scanned immediately before and after the ricin mail. That's what it's used for, it means anyone trying to kill people is discovered more quickly:

Sound like "paranoid thinking" to me, funny that. Every item daily (millions and millions) based on what percentage of ricin packages and bombs flying around the system daily? ... like PRISM, like terror laws, like it all, take the worst case scenarios (compared to what can kill and threaten daily for humans) and install its "measures" for everything and everyone. In the grand scheme of things with postal items in the USA as a whole and the events you describe your talking a dust particle on the moon in comparison.

For officials, government locations and military and so on yes, for everyone ... cant see that one.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/07/us-postal-service-logs-all-snail-mail-for-law-enforcement/

The US Postal Service records the outside of every piece of snail mail processed in the country, allowing employees to retroactively track correspondence at the request of law enforcement and national security agents, according to a published report.

And again like all this legislation and law changes over the past number of years (esp post 9/11) the "request" justifications are getting thinner and lines being blurred with keywords (see SOPA online as example).

What you fail to take on board (or ignore) is all of this isn't fragmented, all of it allows an accepted platform to work from once installed and accepted and centralised via tech, to then change, modify and at any time to be expanded on for now and the future (your kids). So crack on defending it all, as long as your safe (yawn).

Edited July 4, 2013 by mrcash2009

[nodunit 397]

For officials, government locations and military and so on yes, for everyone ... cant see that one.

Their lives are worth more than any of our freedoms, I don't know why they don't just come out and say it.

Used to be political debacles took place behind closed doors, under secrecy. Now they aren't even ashamed of just throwing it out there.

It's a bit depressing to not feel motivated to celebrate your own countries national holiday due to the similarities of modern it and what it once fought to become independent of.

Edited July 4, 2013 by NodUnit

[oxmox 73]

But do you understand them? Do you actually understand the argument between the USA, China and Russia? I have given you transcripts of the actual speech, what the man himself said, word for word. How do you get more accurate than that?

What you posted is more evidence showing the USA doesn't steal technology for economic gain, thanks for backing me up! :)

Well, honestly I didnt write anything about what you are talking about i.e. stealing technology. I did post the Echolon project so people actually acknowledge that a huge spying scandal was aswell not long ago. I didnt dig deeper into this all what are you posting, so I dont want to say something about it. There is economical espionage around the globe/EU, there were industrial trojans and there is the current increase of surveillance and bugged facilities/politicians in the EU. Maybe we did talk at cross purposes.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Sound like "paranoid thinking" to me, funny that. Every item daily (millions and millions) based on what percentage of ricin packages and bombs flying around the system daily? ... like PRISM, like terror laws, like it all, take the worst case scenarios (compared to what can kill and threaten daily for humans) and install its "measures" for everything and everyone. In the grand scheme of things with postal items in the USA as a whole and the events you describe your talking a dust particle on the moon in comparison.

Not at all, try some logical thought, have you seen the statistics regarding the cost in injuries, deaths, disruption, decontamination, screening etc over the years? Apart from human lives the financial cost of the 2001 anthrax incident was around $1billion. $1billion for just 1 incident! So yes, you're talking nonsense again.

Their lives are worth more than any of our freedoms, I don't know why they don't just come out and say it.

Used to be political debacles took place behind closed doors, under secrecy. Now they aren't even ashamed of just throwing it out there.

It's a bit depressing to not feel motivated to celebrate your own countries national holiday due to the similarities of modern it and what it once fought to become independent of.

I assume you don't like paying your taxes? Ditto. ($1billion in tax dollars is worth some prevention?)

Edited July 4, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[mrcash2009 0]

Not at all, try some logical thought, have you seen the statistics regarding the cost in injuries, deaths, disruption, decontamination, screening etc over the years? Apart from human lives the financial cost of the 2001 anthrax incident was around $1billion. $1billion for just 1 incident! So yes, you're talking nonsense again.

Hmm lets balance that with costs to persons with industrial accidents, hospital cockups, road accidents, and well anything that costs more day today than 1 example in 2001 that justifies scanning everyone's post which can on request as a result be passed over to authorities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

Letters containing anthrax spores were mailed to several news media offices and two Democratic U.S. Senators, killing five people and infecting 17 others. According to the FBI, the ensuing investigation became "one of the largest and most complex in the history of law enforcement".^[1]

Yep thats it, 5 dead, a few contaminated (by a source of an item you get clearly get off the shelf by anyone posting it any time except it was from a lab) ... 13 years later its in force for everyone permanent posting letters, throwing around financial cost wasn't everyone who now posts a letter in the U.S's issue. All posted to key selective places, not the entire U.S generic postal addresses that can happen at any time like any other daily threat a human will face. But lets magnify these cases and blot out everything else to justify it to be put in place.

I assume you don't like paying your taxes? Ditto. ($1billion in tax dollars is worth some prevention?)

S.T.R.A.W.M.A.N.

Preventative measures slowly but surely once added together, put in place and added to again later dont end up the place they started. Plenty of examples show legislation being used outside of what it was "originally intended", you just have this thread alone to show it, let alone all information elsewhere. Initial justification, acceptance, installation, the norms... expand.

Edited July 4, 2013 by mrcash2009

[krycek 349]

Not at all, try some logical thought, have you seen the statistics regarding the cost in injuries, deaths, disruption, decontamination, screening etc over the years? Apart from human lives the financial cost of the 2001 anthrax incident was around $1billion. $1billion for just 1 incident! So yes, you're talking nonsense again.

No wonder they can implement PRISM and other gizmoz with people like Mattar here.You seem to really live in fear.You don't really understand the basic human nature which means once you're on the "buttons" you'll start to use those powers to your benefit.

Keep believing everything is for your own safety(I honestly struggle not to laugh).And no I'm not an anarchist(every society needs laws to regulate itself) but to actually believe that spying on everyone somehow benefits all it's mind-boggling to say the least.What you and the facebook generation doesn't get is that privacy is a right and not a privilege.Nothing simpler than that.

I'm sure you'll find justification for everything they do or they'll do,btw what if they decide a curfew because I dunno they'll say a horde of angry invading muslims is gathering on the Moon.

Yeah I know it's for your own safety.:o

I don't like the tin foil hat conspiracy nutters camp that believe even their toaster is trying to assassinate them,but the real irony here is that with enough people like you they could do a false flag op so easily these days.

[mrcash2009 0]

I don't like the tin foil hat conspiracy nutters camp that believe even their toaster is trying to assassinate them

Electric shavers, not toasters! you "sheople" are so ill informed :p;)

[oxmox 73]

Some months ago, I did read and post an article about audio surveillance in US public buses....well, it seems between Europe and the US there is big difference in the basic view about survillance and the right of privacy. It is a right, actually in some countries it is a basic right and not a privileg, thats true. Maybe for some there is a similarity i.e. a US citizen talks about his basic right to defend himself with arms. Of course privacy has aswell its limits.

Edited July 4, 2013 by oxmox

[nodunit 397]

I assume you don't like paying your taxes? Ditto. ($1billion in tax dollars is worth some prevention?)

Taxes don't bother me, the funds are used for roads, schools, public services and so on.

This has more to do with a trade in freedom for protection and how political figures are effectively immune to most things, exempt from certain rules they are pushing on the public, and how things must change because someone threatened their lives. The fact that martial law was "okay" after the boston bombing disgusts me.

And I'm certainly not pleased with all the goings on for the excuse of protection.

Edited July 4, 2013 by NodUnit

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Well lets turn it on it's head and start from the beginning, lets start from the point of view that privacy is more important than an individual right to life and every safeguard that might impinge privacy is removed, no databases, no records, no CCTV, nothing:

Scenario 1:

Someone posts a letter contaminated with anthrax and 3 people working in a post room die.

Now protecting everyone's right to privacy how do you:

A. Find out who did it?

B. Stop it happening again in the future?

Scenario 2:

A bomb explodes in a shopping mall killing 50 people. It was placed in a maintenance cart, no one knows who put the bomb there or when. They use a common explosive and generic toy parts for the construction and it is triggered by mobile phone. There is no link to anyone apart from the person that made the call.

Now protecting everyone's right to privacy how do you:

A. Find out who made the call or where from?

B. Stop it happening again in the future?

3. Associated issues:

C. Do we just let it go as everyone's right to privacy is more important than a few 1000 dead people each year + $billions in disruption, decontamination etc?

D. Without a deterrent the problem is likely to increase, so at what point do you say enough is enough?

@ Krycek, I am particularly interested in your views on the above. It's rather easy to criticise something, lets see if you have the brains to suggest a viable alternative? If you don't respond, I will take it as an admission that you don't. I will laugh at that :)

Taxes don't bother me, the funds are used for roads, schools, public services and so on.

Right you don't do maths/math either? That $1Billion dollars is gone, spent on decontamination. It leaves a deficit in the government finances, so how do you replace it? It means paying more tax. Understand? A few letters cost $1Billion, what if it happened every week (if they couldn't find who did it, it might)? How would you afford to pay for it?

Edited July 4, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari