PiP Use and Discussion - Poll

[OMAC 254]

Picture-in-Picture (PiP) is an important feature of ToH which is new to BIS games, and will be included in ArmA 3. Many, including RiE, have written that they don't use PiP due to the severe (~-10 fps) performance hit. Do you use PiP? Do you have any questions or comments about it? Do you see any problems with its functionality or performance? Do you have any suggestions regarding PiP implementation in the game? Should it be used as a more integral element in gameplay or should it be kept as a cool but more-or-less peripheral element?

Having played ToH with PiP enabled for some missions, it is clear that it greatly enhances the game experience, although it is not essential for gameplay (I have not completed the career campaign, so I don't know if it is required to complete some missions, but I doubt it).

[jedra 11]

Well, I for one have no idea what it does as I have had it turned off since day one (same with the clouds). With PiP (about 10fps) and Clouds (about 20fps) on I lose 30fps (seriously).

I thought I did see that some bilboards had moving adverts on them with PiP - not sure if I imagined that though!

I haven't noticed anything missing with it off though. When you say it greatly enhances the game experience, what did you mean? Convince me that I need to turn it on again!

[OMAC 254]

Hi Jedra,

I'm not here to convince you about it, I just want to hear what you have to say about it.

Having it on for the whale mission (The Cove?) shows nice close-up views of the whales and other boats in a little, on-screen window that appears and disappears automatically. In Shadow of the Blade, a realtime video of you is displayed on a big screen near the port which is mentioned in game dialog. PiP may even help in landing, especially with the heavy chopper - you can see your position in the realtime video on the cockpit screen.

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

Yesterday I was testing the Medium hsim beta 2 from Armored Sheep on this homemade mission crafted from the BIS sample mission template.

In it, I slingload 2 netted crates over a small mountain using the helicopter painted with a shark mouth, on a community made terrain (OFM_Uhao). This helicopter has PiP capability on the dash and also a popup GUI, similar to GPS. I had PiP enabled to observe how it could help me with locating the crates.

70 FPS at the airport standing outside the helicopter.

(:rolleyes: I misrepresented this. standing outside of helicopter, Yes, facing same direction as pilot seat, NO :o)

50 FPS at the airport standing outside the helicopter.

30 FPS after boarding the helicopter with PiP disabled.

20 FPS after boarding the helicopter with PiP enabled.

Regardless of what my other Video options were at the time, I cant suffer that kind of hit to my frame rates and maintain enjoyable gameplay.

However, I do think it's neat, and I wish my computer would allow me the performance to use it.

voted - Never - too much performance hit

Edited December 6, 2011 by [DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

[jedra 11]

PiP may even help in landing, especially with the heavy chopper - you can see your position in the realtime video on the cockpit screen.

Well, this would be very useful. Unfortunately I am already down to 25-30fps in busy areas in Seattle, taking it down to 15-20 would probably make it difficult to keep the chopper smooth.

It does sound like a great idea, I just don't think most people's hardware is up to it.

I will try it in the Heavy later though as the only way I can land it at the moment is in 3rd person - unless I have a lot of clearance!!

[nodunit 397]

I've used and not had any severe impacts during my plays in TKOH outside of an instance of the "HUD PIP", the mission where you are to video some whales, oddly enough the frame rate did not change regarding using both the dash video and HUD video together, but it dropped when I removed the HUD and relied on the dash (light).

PIP itself seems to be a bird wierd in some ways, mentioning the dash screen and mirrors in cars, it looks jerky but when you look at the mirror on the light's skids it is perfectly smooth. Likewise landing the heavy at the airshow was fine and smooth.

[jedra 11]

Did someone say that there is a PiP facility inside a Heavy? If there is I can't find it in any of the missions. Is there a key I am missing to turn it on?

[b101_uk 10]

Did someone say that there is a PiP facility inside a Heavy? If there is I can't find it in any of the missions. Is there a key I am missing to turn it on?

yes, a big screen in the dash, works for sling loading etc.

[royaltyinexile 175]

Did someone say that there is a PiP facility inside a Heavy? If there is I can't find it in any of the missions. Is there a key I am missing to turn it on?

The

shows the way that PiP is automatically set up for you with certain scripted waypoints, like slingloading. It's also in the mission 'The Shadow of the Blade' and, unless I'm mistaken, 'The Hand that Feeds'. It'd also be in the 'Sling your Hook' challenge, if you're ridin' dirty in the heavy. ;)

Of course, if you have it disabled in the video settings, it won't pop up. The heavy is actually my favourite PiP, because 1) you really need it and 2) its conveniently placed in your view without the need for an extra UI layer.

Best,

RiE

Edited December 6, 2011 by RoyaltyinExile

[DnA 5133]

There's been a recent improvement to PiP, allowing more options than just enabled / disabled. I don't think this was in Patch 1 yet, so you'll get it in Patch 2. My fairly low-spec system can now run PiP fine on Low. It basically gives you the effect, but at a lower framerate (for the RenderTarget itself).

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

I look forward to that capability ! thanks :cool:

[maddogx 13]

One more thing to look forward to in the next patch. :)

Hopefully the custom memory allocator functionality from Arma2 will also make it to TakOH, as I felt a definite performance improvement with TBB4.

[Isaac 10]

In my opinion the PiP in medium and heavy helos is quite convenient because it only activates when close to the cargo (may I suggest to also enable the feture in the drop off point so that we can see where we are releasing the cargo?), in light it is stealing FPS during all the flight...

[OMAC 254]

There's been a recent improvement to PiP, allowing more options than just enabled / disabled. I don't think this was in Patch 1 yet, so you'll get it in Patch 2. My fairly low-spec system can now run PiP fine on Low. It basically gives you the effect, but at a lower framerate (for the RenderTarget itself).

Excellent. Poll results so far suggest that such improvements (among others) are needed, with the ultimate objective of having EVERYONE use PiP all the time, and giving mission developers the flexibility to include PiP use in a more integral way. It's way too cool a feature for it not to be used due to performance hits.

What Issac mentioned is key, and I have suggested similar notions in another thread. PiP takes up too much performance during normal flight, especially for light helis, when you are not using the PiP anyway (especially the Time Trials, for which I always disable PiP to get max fps). What about having the PiP automatically display at lower framerates during normal flight (above a certain speed?), and have the better framerates kick in at lower speeds and/or at scripted waypoints? Even cooler, what about having PiP display at lower framerates unless the dashboard video screen is within a certain low angle from the center of your field of view (look direction)?

The HUD PiP only displayed at scripted waypoints is great, but the performance hit associated with dashboard video screens and rear-view mirrors during normal flight should be optimized and enhanced.

What about a key binding to toggle PiP in-game when you need max fps?

---------- Post added at 08:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 AM ----------

One more thing to look forward to in the next patch. :)

Hopefully the custom memory allocator functionality from Arma2 will also make it to TakOH, as I felt a definite performance improvement with TBB4.

Excellent point. ToH needs every way to boost performance it can get, especially with PiP enabled!

Edited December 10, 2011 by OMAC

[OMAC 254]

I used PiP yesterday to sling load the floating crates, and it worked perfectly. More than that, PiP seemed to be the only way to attach the crate on Expert without external view. Even with PiP and autohover, it was quite hard. And fun.

------------------------------------

I nervously slingloaded two crates to the Vrana compound, and was returning for the third. And then..................:eek: :butbut:

Oh, no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited December 10, 2011 by OMAC

[OMAC 254]

Well, this would be very useful. Unfortunately I am already down to 25-30fps in busy areas in Seattle, taking it down to 15-20 would probably make it difficult to keep the chopper smooth.

With that FPS in Seattle, I think your system is up to handling PiP, at least on campaign missions where scripted waypoints make use of it. I would try it. I guarantee you, you will like it! :)

[b101_uk 10]

Something I noticed yesterday which isn’t PIP related (I don’t think) but has a FPS drop, is “free look†(Kpad *) to mouse-look, it seems all the little green icons have their cost in FPS of <10fps.

I then found if you like to mouse-look when flying rather than use Kpad 1 – 9 or use of the joystick POV and the green icons or the FPS drop you don’t need, if you go into options > game options you will see a setting for “free-look interaction†which is defaulted to “disabled†meaning every time you have to turn ON free-look AND you get the green icons and FPS drop, if you set it to “default OFF†then “free-look†is by default ON with green icons OFF when you get into a helicopter and if press the free-look button it toggles the green icons on/off. :)

[Sleepdoc1 1]

Something I noticed yesterday which isn’t PIP related (I don’t think) but has a FPS drop, is “free look†(Kpad *) to mouse-look, it seems all the little green icons have their cost in FPS of <10fps.

I then found if you like to mouse-look when flying rather than use Kpad 1 – 9 or use of the joystick POV and the green icons or the FPS drop you don’t need, if you go into options > game options you will see a setting for “free-look interaction†which is defaulted to “disabled†meaning every time you have to turn ON free-look AND you get the green icons and FPS drop, if you set it to “default OFF†then “free-look†is by default ON with green icons OFF when you get into a helicopter and if press the free-look button it toggles the green icons on/off. :)

Good observation b101

On the PIP issue, I'm running a triple screen on nvidia surround (560Tis) and the pip flickers like crazy on all settings. So I had to disable it.

Do you know if I a person can zoom the PIP?

Love the idea, but so far, I can't use it due to transparency and flicker on my system.

[OMAC 254]

I've had the PiP flicker maddeningly also, especially after loading a saved game.

[ztorm 1]

I voted Always - cool, but needs work (yes, it's till true in v1.05)

I'd love to be able to fully control the PiP camera, turn it on/off whenever I want, maybe orient it, zoom in/out. Flying around spying on cars and stuff... That would be fun.

Actually I found a FOV issue in the PiP that I don't think was reported yet, but as a newcomer I'm not allowed to post pictures, so here I am. :o

[beepee 10]

I voted Always - cool, but needs work (yes, it's till true in v1.05)

I'd love to be able to fully control the PiP camera, turn it on/off whenever I want, maybe orient it, zoom in/out. Flying around spying on cars and stuff... That would be fun.

Have you seen this one? -> http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?130472-Blake-s-Mobile-Parts-Workshop

Also check this one -> http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?129961-Render-to-Texture-Examples

[ztorm 1]

Wow thanks, this looks awesome.

[nephros 23]

Resurrecting a dead topic...

I'm curious HOW other people use the PIP, functionally speaking, particularly with regard to sling-loading and hovering? There is no doubt it is an awesome feature and I've been having a lot of fun using it in conjunction with the 'Blake's Mobile Parts' mod, but I haven't found that it actually helps me with sling-loading or hovering. When I am trying to hover over something in a spot where there are very limited visual cues (I'm thinking of the career sling-loading side mission in which you hover over the space needle) it seems like it should be helpful. What I find though is that if I watch the PIP it is disorienting. It feels like I am moving faster than I actually am so I tend to grossly overcorrect if I'm watching the PIP. More importantly, since the camera re-orients on the point and doesn't have any visual indicator of what is the "top" of the camera, I can't get a sense of if I'm in front, behind, or to the side of the objective. I find the most useful tool for hovering is actually watching my GPS and aligning my helicopter marker over the waypoint marker and making subtle adjustment based on the verbal instructions from the guy on the ground. I'm curious if others find PIP useful, in which case I probably just need to practice more, or if their experiences are similar.

[max power 21]

Hmm, yes. Maybe a static camera looking down would be easier to handle.

[nephros 23]

The Blake's mobile workshop mod allows you to adjust the camera so that it is fixed pointing down. I've tried that too, but when I adjust the cyclic I lose the image of the target really quickly.

I suppose I just need to practice! :p