God

[Sadico 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">God gives u the right to defend ur country.<span id='postcolor'>

And didn't he tell Moises "you shall not kill"? The new testament enters in contradiction with the old testament constantly. Are you christian? then you should act as Jesus said (well, as he supposedly said) and hence pay more attention to the new testament (that constantly says that violence is wrong).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">u can bring up as many point of view u may believe, but they r all false.<span id='postcolor'>

U can read as many passages of the bible as you want. I'm an atheist and i couldn't care less about what the bible says. Killing is wrong, and i don't care if a book says otherwise.

Religious people should think more about things by themselves instead of just looking for an answer in the bible. As a philosoph said: "Suicide is not abominable because god forbids it, god forbids suicide because it's abominable."

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

When you are gettun attacked and your people are getting killed you must defend yourself, and no it is not murder. Osama wasn't defending his Faith, he was killing inocent civilians.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 18 2002,19:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do not commit murder like the guys did on 9/11 or like a killer woul do to his victims.<span id='postcolor'>

As a side note, I'd so much like somebody to explain to me why the 9/11 thing was a "cowardly act of murder". More specifically:

1. Why was is cowardly? Is it cowardly to perform a suicide strike? Doesn't it actually take a lot of guts to do it?

2. Was the Pentagon strike murder, after all, it was a military target? Do you have to do shit like this in the name of a nation for it to be war, not murder? Who defines what is a nation? Does your nation have to be recognized by X number of other nations or what?

3. Wasn't the WTC strike "strategic bombing" to break the will of the enemy to resist (albeit an unsuccesful one)? Or if it was murder, why wasn't Dresden firebombing murder or nuking Japan?

So please, somebody explain the legal/moral aspects of this to me. Or do those politicos use these "cowardly act of murder" words just arbitrarily?

[Gollum1 0]

Yes, yes! Ooooh, Americans are such hypocrites!

What was Hiroshima if not murder? There were next no none military targets there, and the death toll FAR succeeds that of puny little WTC. (and it poisoned the land, an extra bonus!

If the Nazis would have invented the A-bomb before the U.S had (it almost happened) and they would have bombed London and STILL have been defeated, the world would nowadays have used it as ABSOLUTE EVIDENCE that the Nazis were EEEVIL (and they must be destroyed in the fires of mount doom)

Hmmm...but, of course, if the U.S did it, it was "necessary".

History is written by the winner.

Oh, and if there are A-bombs, there is no God.

[Guest]

An old truth is that the winner writes the history. This is not a specifically American thing but applies to anybody in a position of power.

To connect it to the debate, I find it amusing how often both sides in an armed conflict say that they have God on their side. (Osama: God has helped us to beat the Americans, Bush: God bless Ameria! )

That is why i think that the universal "thou shalt not kill" is a good rule to stick to.

[Hilandor 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ June 18 2002,11:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To connect it to the debate, I find it amusing how often both sides in an armed conflict say that they have God on their side. (Osama: God has helped us to beat the Americans, Bush: God bless Ameria! )<span id='postcolor'>

this is because the muslim god is different to the christian god (im pressuming bush is of that religious group -]) and therefore both would be justified to claim to fight for god etc

also within the karan (excuse the spelling) there is sections that state that, poeple can kill other combatants as long as there not farmers, kids children etc and the combatants can vary from soldiers to somoene that tries to destroy the religion. ( it doesnt read as such but along those lines so dont flame me, it was a while ago i read these statements that were extractss from the koran karan muslim bible)

[Guest]

No, It's the same God. Both Christians and Muslims agree on that. Muslims even accept Jesus as a prophet. So it's the same god that they are talking about, just different interpretations of how things are.

Islam forbids all forms of war except for 'holy war', which is not supposed to be expansive and agressive but purely defensive. That is why all muslim countries call all their wars for 'holy'.

[Oligo 1]

Dang. Nobody gave answers to my carefully articulated questions....

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ June 19 2002,10:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dang. Nobody gave answers to my carefully articulated questions....  <span id='postcolor'>

If you want I can try to answer for Duke_of_Ray:

[DUKE OF RAY MODE]

When you are gettun attacked and your people are getting killed you must defend yourself, and no it is not murder. Osama wasn't defending his Faith, he was killing inocent civilians.

God means do not commit murder like the guys did on 9/11 or like a killer woul do to his victims.

Killing during war is not murder but self-defence, or the defence of others. Like if a police officer shoots somebody in self defence it is not killing, or if he shoots them in defense of others it is not killing.

There really is only one truth and that is that Jesus Christ is Lord and that he was raised from the dead. The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ.

There really is only one truth and that is that Jesus Christ is Lord and that he was raised from the dead. The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ.

There really is only one truth and that is that Jesus Christ is Lord and that he was raised from the dead. The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ.

[/DUKE OF RAY MODE]

[Oligo 1]

Haha! Thanks for filling in for Duke, Denoir. Man, I miss Wobble. Sheesh, I'd never thought I'd say that.

[ale2999 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ June 19 2002,10:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ June 19 2002,10:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dang. Nobody gave answers to my carefully articulated questions....  <span id='postcolor'>

If you want I can try to answer for Duke_of_Ray:

[DUKE OF RAY MODE]

When you are gettun attacked and your people are getting killed you must defend yourself, and no it is not murder. Osama wasn't defending his Faith, he was killing inocent civilians.

God means do not commit murder like the guys did on 9/11 or like a killer woul do to his victims.

Killing during war is not murder but self-defence, or the defence of others. Like if a police officer shoots somebody in self defence it is not killing, or if he shoots them in defense of others it is not killing.

There really is only one truth and that is that Jesus Christ is Lord and that he was raised from the dead. The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ.

There really is only one truth and that is that Jesus Christ is Lord and that he was raised from the dead. The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ.

There really is only one truth and that is that Jesus Christ is Lord and that he was raised from the dead. The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ.

[/DUKE OF RAY MODE]

<span id='postcolor'>

I wish u talked like this from heart....

[Hardliner 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ June 19 2002,08:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1. Why was is cowardly? Is it cowardly to perform a suicide strike? Doesn't it actually take a lot of guts to do it?<span id='postcolor'>

I think it takes courage so I don't think it is cowardly, those who drop bombs from a safe high alltitude on people that can't shoot back, that is cowardly, especially when you claim to be a powerful nation with all its little technologies.

Performing a suicide strike is all some people can do because they have nothing else in the way of an army, tanks and planes. How else are they suppost to defend themselves? Very true.

Just my thought on it.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

First off the musilim god is not the same as the Christian God, I heard a Christian priest say that My Alaha,spelling, is your Allah, but he was wrong. God is the Christian God and not the muslim god, I don't care what anybody says. Yes dropping the atom bomb on japan was a bad deal, but any other nation would have done the same. Suicide bombing is cowradly and is completely stupid. America,like it or not, is the most powerful nation on earth and it is not cowradly to fight from the air, but extremly smart.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 19 2002,19:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't care what anybody says.<span id='postcolor'>

That would be the sum of your contributions in this thread, yes.

[Hardliner 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 19 2002,19:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Suicide bombing is cowradly and is completely stupid. America,like it or not, is the most powerful nation on earth and it is not cowradly to fight from the air, but extremly smart.<span id='postcolor'>

If you believe in something strong enough and you have nothing to fight with then suicide is not cowardly. Its more honourable than nuking 2 entire cities killing supposed "innocent" civilians. I read a page on the effects it had on those people and i was deeply angered by it. Japan started lossing the war in the pacific and started its "Kamikazi" runs becuase they were defending against increasing odds. They used human torpedos (human guided) because they had greater chances of taking American warships down. Are they cowardly for defending their country? You said yourself that its ok to fight for your country. Killing yourself to take some of the enemy with you would require great courage in my opinion.

It is also cowardly to strike down an unarmed opponant. Thus making it cowardly to strike someone when they can't fight back. It is basically smashing the shit out of someone while their hands are tied behind their back. They can't defend themselves. This might give you victory but its still cowardly. But even I know war is not fough on even terms and it never will be.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you believe in something strong enough and you have nothing to fight with then suicide is not cowardly. Its more honourable than nuking 2 entire cities killing supposed "innocent" civilians.<span id='postcolor'>

So what those guys did on 9/11 was honorable? What country are you from,if you don't mind me aksing?

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 19 2002,21:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So what those guys did on 9/11 was honorable? What country are you from,if you don't mind me aksing?<span id='postcolor'>

Honor is a subjective term. For a yank, it is honorable to serve in the army, kill terrorists and so forth. For an Al-Qaeda terrorist it is honorable to do the 9/11 thing. Honor is defined only by you yourself and your peers. Thus Duke-of-Ray, you cannot make any statements of the honor of the Al-Waeda terrorists.

Now cowardice is a different thing. I'd say that slamming a plane into a building is not something a coward would do.

The moral rightness of 9/11 actions, however, is a matter of faith.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

Yes, cowards are those who never dare to oppose anything. Losing your life in an attempt to strike the enemy of your people is quite opposing, IMHO.

[Shabadu 0]

It simply amazes me that in this day and age, where people are(reasonably) educated and have a greater understanding of the world and yet the majority are unable to look at things objectively. To the Al-Qaeda geezers and the palestinians it is honourable to kill yourself and take others with you simply because that is their religion. Many people simply don't understand this very simple concept.

God, I hate religion.

[Hardliner 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Shabadu @ June 20 2002,14:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To the Al-Qaeda geezers and the palestinians it is honourable to kill yourself and take others with you simply because that is their religion. Many people simply don't understand this very simple concept.<span id='postcolor'>

You are so wrong I believe if the palestinians where allowed to have their own state and the Israelis left them alone they would have no need for it. But seeing as how they hate each other it probably is too late to stop it. Rather sad I think. But of course you are not affected by this so of course you would say that.

[Shabadu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hardliner @ June 20 2002,16:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Shabadu @ June 20 2002,14:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To the Al-Qaeda geezers and the palestinians it is honourable to kill yourself and take others with you simply because that is their religion. Many people simply don't understand this very simple concept.<span id='postcolor'>

You are so wrong I believe if the palestinians where allowed to have their own state and the Israelis left them alone they would have no need for it. But seeing as how they hate each other it probably is too late to stop it. Rather sad I think. But of course you are not affected by this so of course you would say that.<span id='postcolor'>

Eh? How am I wrong. This is facts. Islam say's you go to heaven if you martyr yourself and many people are too narrow minded to appreciate that for Muslims this is ok.

[Hardliner 0]

I'm sure not every Muslim would think like that. And yeah I don't know much at all about Islam. What source did you get this information from?

[Shabadu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hardliner @ June 20 2002,17:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm sure not every Muslim would think like that. And yeah I don't know much at all about Islam. What source did you get this information from?<span id='postcolor'>

Don't you whatch the news?( and don't say how naive that sounds) Obviously not all muslims are going to think this way. But you have to expect such things from people under the circumstances such as in the Islrael/Palestine conflict.

[Guest]

Calm down, boys and girls! If you want to do your flaming, go to the Mid East thread

[Shabadu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ June 20 2002,17:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Calm down, boys and girls! If you want to do your flaming, go to the Mid East thread <span id='postcolor'>

But no one is flaming.

??????

We're having a conversation.(I think)