God

[advocatexxx 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am just stating the TRUTH <span id='postcolor'>

You don't get it do you ? What makes you RIGHT and us WRONG ? Why is what you say the TRUTH and what we say FALSE ?

Who divided this world into such a clear understanding of BLACK and WHITE ? Einstein proved that nothing is what it seems. Everything looks different to everyone else. It's called Relativity. What you understand as TRUE I understand as FALSE.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 0]

To Duke_of_Ray and all the rest of you dicks like him:

You continue to tell others what God will say, or do to them.  You tell us Jesus loves us and died for us.

Well who the fuck are you?  Why do you think you can talk for god?  You are nothing.  If there is a God then you have no right to talk for him.  You're not god.  You don't talk to god.  Ergo, you do not get to talk for him.

If Jesus loves me or God wants me to act a certain way, he should tell me himself.

Also, on another note. You continue to say what you say is the TRUTH and you KNOW it. You obviously don't understand the meaning of the word "know". What makes you so sure it's the truth? Because you're parents told you? Or a priest? And how do the KNOW it? They've seen God? No. They act on faith. Blind faith. And so do you but you're to ignorant to realize it. You do not KNOW God exists. You believe.

Ands what's with the argument "I know he exists because I see everything around me, trees, birds, etc all created by God." That argument is laughable. You asume that something (your God in this case) MUST have made us and so therefor everything in existance is proof of that. Don't you see anything wrong in that? Thats kinda like the argument that Elephants hide in trees and the proof of that is that we never see them ... because they are such good hiders.

I wish all you people would spend your lives praying to God in your houses and not talk to the rest of us.

[timmy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ June 13 2002,10:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well who the fuck are you?  Why do you think you can talk for god?  You are nothing.  If there is a God then you have no right to talk for him.  You're not god.  You don't talk to god.  Ergo, you do not get to talk for him.<span id='postcolor'>

hes a person that believes in his religion, thats who the fuck he is, and you have no right to get mad at him for it. and he does get to talk for god, becuase that is one of the duties of a christian, to spread the faith. You are being a huge hypocrite when you say that he shouldnt be so certian by saying what he says is truth, then you go off and say "You are nothing. If there is a God then you have no right to talk for him. You're not god. You don't talk to god." He may very well talk to god. You act like you know the truth

[advocatexxx 0]

I'm inclined to agree with Timmy there, Residuum. That was a little over-the-board.

For some people religion is the only thing that gets them through life. Believe it or not (there's that word again), most of the world's population lives in poverty, sickness and hunger. For many of the world's people the main objective in life is still that primitive goal - to survive. We here in these developed countries worry about how nice our g/f's nails look, what toothpaste is best, but far more people worry about the fundamentals. For them it's either farming, hoping that good weather this year will make the crops grow, etc, etc. Many get so down sometimes they turn to God and religion as their faith. They pray and believe in those pre-established biblical rules and somehow manage to let this faith save them.

It's only natural that when such people get Internet access and run into a discussion like this one, they will feel their world has been put upside down.

[timmy 0]

advocate, in that post you say that people who are farming and sturggling to survive in 3rd world countries often turn to religon. and you describe more civilized people to have other priorities, and not particularly care about god. You also said "Many get so down sometimes they turn to God and religion as their faith" you make it sound bad to believe in god. i personally believe in god, and dont think that people always turn to god becuase they are feeling down. i agree sometimes people turn to religion as sort of a last resort, but i dont think of it as my last resort, but as my regular life. Im not the best christian, i only get around to going to church about once a month. But i dont just turn to god when down.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 13 2002,16:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So whats the explanation for the universe? Was there just a "big bang" and it was created? Well maybe so, but the Big Bang happedn becuase God had it happen that way. How can you not realize there is a higher being? Look all around you and you can see al that God has created. Hell is a horrible place and if you do not accept Jesus Christ into your life you will go to hell and burn for eternity, but by asking Jesus into your life you will be granted the gift of GOD which is eternal life.<span id='postcolor'>

You know, it doesn't matter whether big bang or whatever it was was initiated by some divine being or just happened. What proof there is that it was the god you believe in who did it? What if it was the moslem god or some of the bazillion hindu gods? Or maybe it was Odin or Ukko or Zeus or Ammon Ra or whatever? What if it was some divine being who then went the hell away and nobody knows about?

Another thing: I don't want an eternal life and I don't want any hell either. When I die, I just want to cease to exist. The beautiful thing about such death is that there are no regrets, because how can you regret something when you are no more? Death is the only thing in life you can do and have no regrets.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nordin dk @ June 13 2002,16:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ach, you are wrong!

Even if God is omnipotent, it does not mean that he interferes everywhere and all the time.

In theory, he could have created man with a free will, and then left us to see what would happen.

But that he would then punish us for sinning, is like letting your parakeet of the cage and then punishing it for shitting on the armchair

But generally speaking, free will is a difficult thing to imagine, if you have a view of the world that's is based on traditional linear thinking.

Where does an idea come from?

Does every idea and decision arise from a physical need. or is there such a thing as independent inspiration -  a sudden leap of faith in your brain synapses connecting beforehand unrelated items.

Can you train you brain to think original ideas?

I think that free will is an illusion wether you believe in a god or not.

Anyone who has discovered they're adults, but still have little control of the circles they run in, will know what I'm saying.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm glad you brought all of this up. This is really a question between the "clockwork universe" and the "chaotic universe". You know that earlier people thought that the universe is a clockwork, which always goes the certain way once started with certain initial parameters. But nowadays all this proof has come to suggest that there is an inherent degree of randomness in the universe and that everything doesn't go exactly the same way once started with certain initial parameters.

Now if asked, I'd say that the human mind operates partly in this realm of chaos. Of course the mechanism of human thinking is not yet understood to the fullest, but there is a some kind of understanding of the basic structure. Ideas and solutions to problems seem to come from a certain area in the brain which just throws out a wild bunch of different stuff, electronic noise really. The rest of the brain filters out the moronic bulk of the content and leaves the "intelligent" ideas. Or so they say, I'm sorry I don't remember any references, so I might remember incorrectly, ok?

Anyway, what I'm saying is that if you give the same brain the same initial parameters, it probably will come up with different stuff during different "runs". So free will is indeed an illusion, because your thinking is slaved to randomness.

How do we fit god into this? A god which is not omnipotent fits nicely, because this god would be unable to predict the unpredictable. But we were talking about omnipotent gods. Thus, a hypothetical omnipotent god would be able to predict even the chaotic universe to the fullest. He would be able to set the initial parameters of a brain and know beforehand what will happen during the following "run" (does the person accept Jesus or not). Therefore free will cannot exist with an omnipotent god.

Oh yes, if god chose not to know what will happen (a kind of stupid he'd be to do that), it would be like you said: "Letting your parakeet of the cage and then punishing it for shitting on the armchair."

[FallenPaladin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ June 14 2002,07:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Another thing: I don't want an eternal life and I don't want any hell either. When I die, I just want to cease to exist. The beautiful thing about such death is that there are no regrets, because how can you regret something when you are no more? Death is the only thing in life you can do and have no regrets.<span id='postcolor'>

I like that statement! It`s pretty equal to my thoughts regarding death.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (advocatexxx @ June 14 2002,06:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm inclined to agree with Timmy there, Residuum.  That was a little over-the-board.

For some people religion is the only thing that gets them through life.  Believe it or not (there's that word again), most of the world's population lives in poverty, sickness and hunger.  For many of the world's people the main objective in life is still that primitive goal - to survive.  We here in these developed countries worry about how nice our g/f's nails look, what toothpaste is best, but far more people worry about the fundamentals.  For them it's either farming, hoping that good weather this year will make the crops grow, etc, etc.  Many get so down sometimes they turn to God and religion as their faith.  They pray and believe in those pre-established biblical rules and somehow manage to let this faith save them.

It's only natural that when such people get Internet access and run into a discussion like this one, they will feel their world has been put upside down.<span id='postcolor'>

Well ,how do you think we feel when someone comes to us and patronize and says that our belief (the belief of not believing, or whatever) is wrong because he KNOW he is right?

That's incredibly arrogant and disrespectful.

What if a Muslim/Hindu/whatever came to you as a christian and said you would burn in eternal damnation because Jesus is false and Allah is the only true form of god? Would you not feel that this person was stepping on your beliefs?

I'm an atheist and usually I don't mind religious people at all. I have friends among Jews, Christians and Muslims and I respect them as good friends. But they don't tell me what I should think. They respect me too and usually we don't talk about religion at all. You see, they can be content in believing whatever they like, without forcing it upon others.

The whole thing snaps when someone comes to me and say I'm wrong and he's right, because he "know" it. This is what we call MISSIONARIES and I %¤#&& hate them for their arrogance and lack of respect. They ususally make me very nasty company and I will do what I can to step on them. Not because I dislike their religion, but because I hate their attitude.

[Guest]

I couldn't agree more. I respect that people can be religious and that is fine by me. But when they are trying to persuade me in an agressive manner, I hit back.

The obvious problem is that in most religions (christianity especially) convincing others to believe is a large practical goal of the religion.

Luckily the main thing that religions mess up is trying to explain and interfere with earthly matters. So their arguments are very easily shot down.

I played a couple of pranks on some Jehovas Whitnesses that used to ring my door. After I pretended to be a radical muslim and called them 'unfaithful dogs' they left me alone

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ June 14 2002,11:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I played a couple of pranks on some Jehovas Whitnesses that used to ring my door. After I pretended to be a radical muslim and called them 'unfaithful dogs' they left me alone <span id='postcolor'>

I used to pretend I was a radical christian. I fetched a bible and showed to them a passage: "Thou shalt not let infidels into thy house." That got them to leave me alone.

[nordin dk 0]

Another idea is to have some really disgusting cakes lying around for that occasion, invite them in, make some tea or coffee and serve the Shrimp-flavored Scones

And then point with sincerity to the cake, look at the witness with a stern face and say "I can feel God inside this cake"

Overdoing the religious-zealot bit is also effective.

Witness: "Hello, I'd like to tell you about God"

Me (screaming): "OOOOOOOOH Praise the Lord! For he has sent thee to me on this most glorious of days! Haleluja brother. Come in and share my abode , oh messenger of peace. Halleluja! Testify! Blessed art thou and we shall cast aways the demons of the shrimp scone together! Come, in the name of the Lord almighty. Aaaaaaamen!"

Witness: "Uhm...gotta go"

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Well if you want God to tell you himself what to do read the bible. Your right I am not God, and I never said I was. I have the right to talk to God just like you do. And yes I know God, I would put my life on the fact that God is 100% exsistent.

[advocatexxx 0]

3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ June 14 2002,053)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (advocatexxx @ June 14 2002,06:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm inclined to agree with Timmy there, Residuum.  That was a little over-the-board.

For some people religion is the only thing that gets them through life.  Believe it or not (there's that word again), most of the world's population lives in poverty, sickness and hunger.  For many of the world's people the main objective in life is still that primitive goal - to survive.  We here in these developed countries worry about how nice our g/f's nails look, what toothpaste is best, but far more people worry about the fundamentals.  For them it's either farming, hoping that good weather this year will make the crops grow, etc, etc.  Many get so down sometimes they turn to God and religion as their faith.  They pray and believe in those pre-established biblical rules and somehow manage to let this faith save them.

It's only natural that when such people get Internet access and run into a discussion like this one, they will feel their world has been put upside down.<span id='postcolor'>

Well ,how do you think we feel when someone comes to us and patronize and says that our belief (the belief of not believing, or whatever) is wrong because he KNOW he is right?

That's incredibly arrogant and disrespectful.

What if a Muslim/Hindu/whatever came to you as a christian and said you would burn in eternal damnation because Jesus is false and Allah is the only true form of god? Would you not feel that this person was stepping on your beliefs?

I'm an atheist and usually I don't mind religious people at all. I have friends among Jews, Christians and Muslims and I respect them as good friends. But they don't tell me what I should think. They respect me too and usually we don't talk about religion at all. You see, they can be content in believing whatever they like, without forcing it upon others.

The whole thing snaps when someone comes to me and say I'm wrong and he's right, because he "know" it. This is what we call MISSIONARIES and I %¤#&& hate them for their arrogance and lack of respect. They ususally make me very nasty company and I will do what I can to step on them. Not because I dislike their religion, but because I hate their attitude.<span id='postcolor'>

Posing a defensive stance after someone presses on with their beliefs, stating that you're wrong and they're right is a natural response.  A primitive one at that.

If you go all bonkers because an ignorant person insists their beliefs are right and yours are wrong then maybe you should do what I've been doing for the past couple of years.

Anger has rarely solved a problem.  It is an old instinct from the days when we were wild animals to serve in self preservation.  Today, anger will most likely get you into trouble, long pointless arguments and so on.

If you meet such a person as you described, then why get mad and argue or try to "step" on them as you so bluntly said.  If they are so arrogant, then simply agree with them, for their own sake, so that they'll be happy and walk away with a smile.  I'd like to think of that as an intelligent resnpose instead of "you fucking punk you, how are you gonna tell me i'm wrong and you're right if you ain't gotta proof !  I'm gonna fucking kill you now, you bastard"

As you saw, I myself tried presenting some arguments to duke_of_ray, but after realizing there is little I can do to convince him otherwise, then I just accept him as an ignorant, brain-washed, weak-minded person. From his point of view he may think the same of me, and that's okay, because if there's one thing I've learned from Einstein's relativity, it's that no two people see things the same exact way.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (advocatexxx @ June 14 2002,17:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ June 14 2002,05<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (advocatexxx @ June 14 2002,06:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm inclined to agree with Timmy there, Residuum.  That was a little over-the-board.

For some people religion is the only thing that gets them through life.  Believe it or not (there's that word again), most of the world's population lives in poverty, sickness and hunger.  For many of the world's people the main objective in life is still that primitive goal - to survive.  We here in these developed countries worry about how nice our g/f's nails look, what toothpaste is best, but far more people worry about the fundamentals.  For them it's either farming, hoping that good weather this year will make the crops grow, etc, etc.  Many get so down sometimes they turn to God and religion as their faith.  They pray and believe in those pre-established biblical rules and somehow manage to let this faith save them.

It's only natural that when such people get Internet access and run into a discussion like this one, they will feel their world has been put upside down.<span id='postcolor'>

Well ,how do you think we feel when someone comes to us and patronize and says that our belief (the belief of not believing, or whatever) is wrong because he KNOW he is right?

That's incredibly arrogant and disrespectful.

What if a Muslim/Hindu/whatever came to you as a christian and said you would burn in eternal damnation because Jesus is false and Allah is the only true form of god? Would you not feel that this person was stepping on your beliefs?

I'm an atheist and usually I don't mind religious people at all. I have friends among Jews, Christians and Muslims and I respect them as good friends. But they don't tell me what I should think. They respect me too and usually we don't talk about religion at all. You see, they can be content in believing whatever they like, without forcing it upon others.

The whole thing snaps when someone comes to me and say I'm wrong and he's right, because he "know" it. This is what we call MISSIONARIES and I %¤#&& hate them for their arrogance and lack of respect. They ususally make me very nasty company and I will do what I can to step on them. Not because I dislike their religion, but because I hate their attitude.<span id='postcolor'>

Posing a defensive stance after someone presses on with their beliefs, stating that you're wrong and they're right is a natural response.  A primitive one at that.

If you go all bonkers because an ignorant person insists their beliefs are right and yours are wrong then maybe you should do what I've been doing for the past couple of years.

Anger has rarely solved a problem.  It is an old instinct from the days when we were wild animals to serve in self preservation.  Today, anger will most likely get you into trouble, long pointless arguments and so on.

If you meet such a person as you described, then why get mad and argue or try to "step" on them as you so bluntly said.  If they are so arrogant, then simply agree with them, for their own sake, so that they'll be happy and walk away with a smile.  I'd like to think of that as an intelligent resnpose instead of "you fucking punk you, how are you gonna tell me i'm wrong and you're right if you ain't gotta proof !  I'm gonna fucking kill you now, you bastard"

As you saw, I myself tried presenting some arguments to duke_of_ray, but after realizing there is little I can do to convince him otherwise, then I just accept him as an ignorant, brain-washed, weak-minded person.  From his point of view he may think the same of me, and that's okay, because if there's one thing I've learned from Einstein's relativity, it's that no two people see things the same exact way.<span id='postcolor'>

Not my philosophy. If someone talks down to me I don't just eat it. I don't get violent or anything, I just don't swallow anything people force down my throat. I call that being a man of principles. It's not healthy for them either, to just be agreed to, whatever they might say. No progress comes from that. Heated discussions on the other hand...

edit: I once was like you describe, but have changed as I got older and more sure of myself. I see that as a progress. I say what I mean and mean what I say. If people can't handle it, they can go somewhere else.

[advocatexxx 0]

you cuntrag ! (i just love the sound of that)

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

I don' think you are weak minded or brainwashed, I know I am not. As I have stated before I am just telling the truth. So Gimbal I see that you have christian friend, but you say they do not tell you what to do. Well I am not telling you what to do either, I am just giving some very good advice to you all.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 14 2002,19:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As I have stated before I am just telling the truth. .<span id='postcolor'>

Ok then. Proove it!

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 14 2002,19:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don' think you are weak minded or brainwashed, I know I am not. As I have stated before I am just telling the truth. So Gimbal I see that you have christian friend, but you say they do not tell you what to do. Well I am not telling you what to do either, I am just giving some very good advice to you all.<span id='postcolor'>

Main Entry: hu·bris

Pronunciation: 'hyü-br&s

Function: noun

Etymology: Greek hybris

Date: 1884

: exaggerated pride or self-confidence

It seems that belief in god, at least the christian god, imparts a certain degree of hubris. At least, that is all that I can fathom the smug sanctimonious certainty in your statements as being.

I understand that your faith requires you to deny any other diety. But please allow people to believe what they like without being a condescending little bastard. mkay?

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Well to look all around you, how can you not believe in God? How could the universe fit perfectaly into place? There is no way the planets could have benn in the right order without God placing them like that. Also look at all the people who have died for Christ! Why would they die for seomthing that is not real, and I dont mean killing themselves. As it said in the Bible that some a certain group of people would be a thorn in the Jews side, well look at the people who keep blowing themselves up over in Isreal. Why would I sit here and tell you all this if i did not give a rip about what you believe? I wan't yall to believe what is real and true, I do not want anybody to go to hell, not even Osama,although I doubt he reads this message board.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 14 2002,21:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well to look all around you, how can you not believe in God? How could the universe fit perfectaly into place? There is no way the planets could have benn in the right order without God placing them like that. Also look at all the people who have died for Christ! Why would they die for seomthing that is not real, and I dont mean killing themselves. As it said in the Bible that some a certain group of people would be a thorn in the Jews side, well look at the people who keep blowing themselves up over in Isreal. Why would I sit here and tell you all this if i did not give a rip about what you believe? I wan't yall to believe what is real and true, I do not want anybody to go to hell, not even Osama,although I doubt he reads this message board.<span id='postcolor'>

OK, I give up on you son. You are way beyond understanding anything we say. Please, READ THE PAGE AT THIS LINK:

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html

It will be very healthy for you to read through it all.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Why would I read a site about not believing in God,when I know you have to believe in God to get to heaven?

[scout 0]

ok, ok!

we DONT want to reach heaven ok? we want to sit around and in the bon-fire singing away some Sattan-Sailor songs ok? hot magama for breakfast and some trident massage for supper. now lay off!

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Why would you not want to go to heaven? Its really not a joking matter, but a very seruois one. Ill leave yall all alone if thats what yall want but please understand I say this becuase I wan't everybody to go to Heaven!

[scout 0]

you know, in israel we have this problem of orthodox-jews who try to "bring us back to the faith". and you know? this pisses me off. how dare you to say that your beliefs are supirior to mine? how dare you meddling in my life? how would you feel if i would come to you and say "hey, what you believe is horseshit"?

you stated your beliefs, ok. dont go and push us around ok?