Improving the Light Engine| What and How

[On_Sabbatical 11]

I don't like graphic improvements in general,it increases realism but especially for this game,the least thing i would think about as a developper is graphics .

In multiplayer games ,it's difficult to handle lag due too calculations done by server let alone adding more client 's lag ...

post processing effects eat a lot of power when they are mixed ...

[metalcraze 290]

Thats the color filter, not the HDR lightning. ArmA2's current HDR implementation is pretty retarded, though i do like the concept.

I've commented on flawed ArmA2 implementation myself.

And it isn't just color filter. Like whenever you are inside a building and there's even one shining light source - everything turns so dark you can see barely anything but that light. It really looks like HDR taken to the very ridiculous extreme.

Save for looking up and down HDR in ArmA2 is quite adequate.

Glow/bloom effects are a different thing (although I wouldn't mind them being applied only to a sun area since it would only add to that "sun blinds" visual)

[antoineflemming 14]

I don't like graphic improvements in general,it increases realism but especially for this game,the least thing i would think about as a developper is graphics .

In multiplayer games ,it's difficult to handle lag due too calculations done by server let alone adding more client 's lag ...

post processing effects eat a lot of power when they are mixed ...

They could always do like COD and fake stuff (2d effects and stuff)....:P But that wouldn't help lighting.

[wipman 1]

Hi, a new game will require a much better graphic engine, one that try to simulate the human eye instead a bad 80s video camera, with Lens Flare, the bloom in it's present form, HDR In-accuracy etc; a bad or wrong made thing can be worst than the absence of it, this is the case of the ArmA2/OA HDR. It's the worst try of simulate the human eye that i've ever seen and on the ArmA2 is a game breaking thing that unables you (me) to play at certain times of the day; they gonna loose customers if the thing remains the same or close. Let's C ya

---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 PM ----------

Example of Bad Made:

- Bad Light Engine.

Check the tank light values in comparison with the grass; at that possition, you'll see the tank much more clear and less dark IRL. Let's say that the pic is taken at the 17:00 on winter... the ground, will be more clear, the grass a bit darker and the tank much more clear; without stupid bloom effects everywhere that only the mushroom eaters will see ORL.

[metalcraze 290]

What if the tank is darker than the grass?

It has nothing to do with lighting if the grass will have a bright green texture and the tank will be dark brown.

What's wrong with that screenshot however is that shadows seem to be turned off

Edited November 23, 2011 by metalcraze

[NeMeSiS 11]

And it isn't just color filter. Like whenever you are inside a building and there's even one shining light source - everything turns so dark you can see barely anything but that light. It really looks like HDR taken to the very ridiculous extreme.

Thats a pretty spot on description of one of the problems with the HDR in ArmA2, where the suns reflection on instruments completely darkens your vision.

It may also happen in BF3, but the only overpowered light source that i can think of is the flashlight which is done on purpose, i doubt that BI really wants to blind us with reflecting plastic, hot objects in FLIR, basically anything somewhat shiny when using NVGs, etc etc.

[metalcraze 290]

NVG HDR is messed up in ArmA2, you are right (then again I play with ACE so I completely forgot about NVGs having HDR)

As for BF3...

http://static.old-games.ru/uploadedimages/2011/10/29/402074eab16163b4ae.jpg

Here you can see a hall with a dozen of windows during a sunny afternoon. For some reason it's almost pitchblack even though in no way this is possible IRL with so much light getting inside. Why have so many windows then when only ceiling lamps can barely light something up?

That's really messed up lighting/HDR for you.

[Smurf 12]

All pics so far are using the old light engine, so lets wait to see whats going on. But its clear that an overhaul is needed. Just look at STALKER, with "shadow's mods" its a whole new game, better in all ways.

One thing that I would like to see is sun shafts (or "God Rays") but only in specifics situations, like a battle that kicks heavy dust\smoke or in the fog and stuff.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Still not as bad as ArmA2 though. :p

I havent really noticed it as bad as that in BF3, but i havent played it as much as i want to so far. In the beta i did often have a bug that kept my screen dark, like the HDR didnt want to update anymore and it made it kinda look like that.

[metalcraze 290]

HDR may have been improved since ArmA2. As I've said I still see HDR getting broken when looking down at the ground, but I can perfectly see everything when being in a forest and just looking forward like that.

I think BIS indeed tweaked that as I remember when OA came out - the sand was really radioactive and now it looks normal.

All pics so far are using the old light engine, so lets wait to see whats going on. But its clear that an overhaul is needed. Just look at STALKER, with "shadow's mods" its a whole new game, better in all ways.

One thing that I would like to see is sun shafts (or "God Rays") but only in specifics situations, like a battle that kicks heavy dust\smoke or in the fog and stuff.

BIS always tried to make it look real, not fancy. I think ArmA3 should stay that way.

Limiting HDR plus improving the resolution of shadows and improving point lights is what's really needed

[NeMeSiS 11]

HDR may have been improved since ArmA2. As I've said I still see HDR getting broken when looking down at the ground, but I can perfectly see everything when being in a forest and just looking forward like that.

I think BIS indeed tweaked that as I remember when OA came out - the sand was really radioactive and now it looks normal.

I can still reproduce the effects in the screens by Kegetys in extreme lightning conditions (bright summer day, no overcast, no fog), though it does seem a bit more stable since ArmA2's release. Its absolutely awful and if its still like this in ArmA3 BI should be ashamed of itself.

[metalcraze 290]

Limiting HDR as I've said - if it's possible.

Like it shouldn't go beyond certain values. Keeping the effect toned down is what's needed.

There's nothing wrong with slight HDR effect. IIRC Splinter Cell Chaos Theory did it rather well.

[NeMeSiS 11]

There's nothing wrong with slight HDR effect. IIRC Splinter Cell Chaos Theory did it rather well.

I am not advocating the removal of HDR completely, but i do want the current implementation gone (Or at least its effects). Games like HL2, Oblivion and Assasins Creed all had subtle HDR effects that were not annoying. Their downside was that bright lights barely affected the gameplay, but IMO thats still preferable to the current situation where it pretty much always has a negative effect on you, not just when it should. Maybe such effects shouldnt be done through HDR if it cant be done properly this way.

[Daniel 0]

I am not advocating the removal of HDR completely, but i do want the current implementation gone (Or at least its effects). Games like HL2, Oblivion and Assasins Creed all had subtle HDR effects that were not annoying. Their downside was that bright lights barely affected the gameplay, but IMO thats still preferable to the current situation where it pretty much always has a negative effect on you, not just when it should. Maybe such effects shouldnt be done through HDR if it cant be done properly this way.

Absolutely. I'd happily sacrifice the "tactical implications" of fighting into the sun if it means I can see where i'm going on a sunny day. :p

Hopefully BIS can provide a short demo showing how this won't be an issue in Arma 3 and we can go back to discussing light sources...

[wipman 1]

What if the tank is darker than the grass?

It has nothing to do with lighting if the grass will have a bright green texture and the tank will be dark brown.

What's wrong with that screenshot however is that shadows seem to be turned off

Hi, if you look at the screenshot you must notice how the tank have a certain (unreal) light value, the grass have another, the ground haves another... and the objects like trees or the bushes that you see on the distance... have another light value; 'em all have different light values.

There's no situation IRL where you'll see such composition in that way, a tank at that distance from you, with the sun at that height, with that same kind of tall grass and far away, behind the closer things (as the tank and grass) the bushes, trees and the ground in general; you'll not see any of this things as you do on that screenshot, don't haves nothing to do with what you'll see with your eyes IRL, other than the sky and the sun. Sumarizing:

It's wrong and have a huge negative impact on the gameplay; it must be very improved (to simulate a human eye and not a bad photo camera), substituted or removed; but something needs to be made because it's one of the biggest drawbacks that the game haves. Let's C ya

[nodunit 397]

I am not advocating the removal of HDR completely, but i do want the current implementation gone (Or at least its effects). Games like HL2, Oblivion and Assasins Creed all had subtle HDR effects that were not annoying. Their downside was that bright lights barely affected the gameplay.

When effects get in the way of gameplay that they aren't meant to then you have a problem..looking at the sun and being blinded is one thing but looking at concrete, a white metal roof or into shadows is another.. And really the subtle effect makes it more realistic and feel as if we're using EYES not cameras.

[NeMeSiS 11]

When effects get in the way of gameplay that they aren't meant to then you have a problem..looking at the sun and being blinded is one thing but looking at concrete, a white metal roof or into shadows is another.. And really the subtle effect makes it more realistic and feel as if we're using EYES not cameras.

Thats what i said, you just replaced my , with a . and ended my sentence. :p

[nodunit 397]

Ah sorry I must have misunderstood, it's been one of those weeks x.x

Edited November 24, 2011 by NodUnit

[Droikka 1]

Make the engine render raytraced. I can run it 60FPS @ 2560x1600 reso.

[Minoza 11]

Make the engine render raytraced. I can run it 60FPS @ 2560x1600 reso.

Trolololo...

No... raytracing is still far away when it comes to gaming. Few demos wont change that, and all I've seen so far have most of the stuff faked anyways, so it would only work in few situations - one of them is demo with static geometry. Usually some nice car model to show off how powerful PS3 is... make the kiddies happy and all...

[Droikka 1]

Trolololo...

No... raytracing is still far away when it comes to gaming. Few demos wont change that, and all I've seen so far have most of stuff faked anyways, so it would only work in few situations (demo, right...?).

I thought it was obvious. But I think that everything else in this thread has been at the same level. You can ADJUST all you want but it's not improving the ENGINE. It's just improving ART direction.

However; as it has been already implemented in a beta: Longer shadow distances. Also global ghadows, gmooth shadows and a new HBAO enchancement. What the game needs more is shadows. We are in 2012 summer when the game comes out, we can handle all these by then real-time. It's not like someone with a dual-core CPU + GDDR2 GPU would by the game anyway.

[reconteam 19]

I've got to agree that the light engine needs an overhaul. ArmA2 has some amazing visuals, but when you go into a house or APC, look at the ground, or any number of other things, the effect is just... strange. I suppose it is supposed to simulate your eyes adjusting to the light, but it doesn't come across very realistic. While many games do similar things, I find it rather annoying in ArmA for this reason.

[gL33k 0]

No. What you suggest is not improving but ruining the engine.

Lighting in BF3 and Crysis2 is completely ridiculous

IRL there are no overexaggerated contrast, pitchblack shadows and lensflares in your eyes from everything that shines. BF3 and Crysis2 use it to cover their dated graphics and it looks terrible as sometimes BF3 also looks black and white. Do you really want ArmA3 to look like a cartoon?

The lighting in ArmA2 is realistic and that's how it should stay. The only thing the engine needs is point light sources

point light source and volumetric ambiant occlusion (or at least an approaching method). arma2 is great on topography, texturing, even geometry. even if , with DX11 gpu , they could think about tesselation ;)

the only thing the engine lack at my POV , is better shadowing . actually, their SSAO post processing apply to grass clutter only . not building or unit .

---------- Post added at 06:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:29 PM ----------

Trolololo...

No... raytracing is still far away when it comes to gaming. Few demos wont change that, and all I've seen so far have most of the stuff faked anyways, so it would only work in few situations - one of them is demo with static geometry. Usually some nice car model to show off how powerful PS3 is... make the kiddies happy and all...

yeah he is dreaming actually ... however, i tested a GI hacking shader with OBGE v3 mod for oblivion. it gave the look of 90's CGI demo !

was funny . in 10 years , the power of gpu will give ability to oversample that by 1024 by the law of moore , and then remove the grainy effect. i presume ...

Edited November 29, 2011 by gL33k

[DancZer 65]

I think the current lighting engine is enougth. The only problems are the shadow bugs. Sometimes blink or even disappear shadow and you can see the enemy whos hide there. Less is better if it is bugless.

[purepassion 22]

The is now Work In Progress :)

Edited December 4, 2011 by PurePassion
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