The trouble with getting people into Arma

[Zipper5 74]

It is for everyone, both those who wish to play coop and those who wish to play PvP. If you wish to play PvP and cannot find a server to your liking, you can freely locally host your own, purchase and run your own server, or kindly ask some server admins if they would be willing to host a mission you wish to play. There is no reason to deem one group above the other, and that goes for both groups of players.

As a self-proclaimed nerd, I usually find that those who play video games and attack others unprovoked on a video game forum, are just as nerdy as the rest of us. Just some food for thought. :)

[CarlGustaffa 4]

The bottom line! Coop ruined this awesome game!

Coop support is the main reason many of us stay. None of my Arma friends play typical action paced PvP games anymore, because the gameplay certainly isn't any better there.

Some of us that were old when OFP came around, are now very old :p. We simply cannot compete with the snapsters - I have younger friends that run circles around me. In coop we can adjust our competition, and that competition play a lot more "by the book" than what is done in PvP, where I've been instructed to turn off shadows and all the good stuff I enjoy that PvP'ers turn off to get the edge.

PvP in Arma, for some/many, is simply not an option. Don't try to take that away from us, it's the only decent game we have left. You PvP'ers have tons of other games to enjoy that completely ignores coop.

[tk1138 10]

You got it man... The arma2free Russian server is one of the only pvp's out there that doesn't have a 180 ping limit like the European PvPDoa server has. I have put up servers over the years and for some reason the vast amount of peeps want to play armchair general and play target practice with AI. I don't get it.

I'm pretty sick of people decrying that Arma was NOT made for PvP play. I'd love for BIS to chime in and prove that point. The staggering number of coop servers running virtually the same style of game are hurting this game for those who want to fight against other real people with real brains in there noggins.

I declare that PvP in Arma IS the freaking most fun and intense game available to play out there... Hands down, it's sheer freaking excitement.

It's totally sad that that excitement is so hard to come by.

Would be cool if some of those loaded coop servers just threw a few PvP maps in there to rotate. There is such an untapped plethora of existing missions and various types of PvP that rarely gets played and I think allot of the guys shooting against AI just have no idea they even exist.

Untill AI is actually AI (intelligent able to learn and so on) the ONLY way to play video games will be with other human players other wise all you get is AI that are moving targets that shoot back occasionally...

---------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ----------

Coop support is the main reason many of us stay. None of my Arma friends play typical action paced PvP games anymore, because the gameplay certainly isn't any better there.

Some of us that were old when OFP came around, are now very old :p. We simply cannot compete with the snapsters - I have younger friends that run circles around me. In coop we can adjust our competition, and that competition play a lot more "by the book" than what is done in PvP, where I've been instructed to turn off shadows and all the good stuff I enjoy that PvP'ers turn off to get the edge.

PvP in Arma, for some/many, is simply not an option. Don't try to take that away from us, it's the only decent game we have left. You PvP'ers have tons of other games to enjoy that completely ignores coop.

THank god the communities standards have been lowered thanks to people like you...tell me these TONS of games with PVP how many of them are simulation quality similar to this game...

maybe you should start up the editor and go to a run way set up a bunch of targets (they have ones that automatically reset themselves) these targets will give you a similar effect to your AI in coop...i mean you like shooting fish in a barrel right...quite a challenge...i mean even the AI set to maximum (super AI turned off still) they suck, and are retarded....

Edited October 2, 2011 by tk1138

[katipo66 94]

PvP in Arma, for some/many, is simply not an option. Don't try to take that away from us, it's the only decent game we have left. You PvP'ers have tons of other games to enjoy that completely ignores coop.

I dont think anyone wants to see anything taken away...

Maybe im being simplistic or something but i can imagine great PVP in this game... i think Arma can provide a different style of PVP (to all the other FPS) on map sizes similar to Shapur, not too big to get lost, not too small to be linear, enough room to manouver etc.

All those tons of other games do not/cannot cater for this and are generally arena based.

[Cripsis 10]

Untill AI is actually AI (intelligent able to learn and so on) the ONLY way to play video games will be with other human players other wise all you get is AI that are moving targets that shoot back occasionally.

Here's what you need to do (this will only work to it's full potential if you own a copy of Operation Arrowhead because all the buildings are enterable).

Install @ACE mod and install @ZEUS AI mod, change skill settings in your .ArmA2Profile: skillFriendly=0.98500001; skillEnemy=0.99500001; precisionFriendly=0.5; precisionEnemy=0.48999981;

Set all enemy skill sliders to 100 per cent

Place the enemy AI near good cover like buildings and walls and I gaurantee you will be in for one hell of a firefight. At those setting it's not unusual for squad sized firefights in places like Zargabad to last for well over an hour so bring extra ammo. Be careful because the enemy AI will try to flank you when you are pinned, good luck.

Without those mods and settings the AI are dumber than a rock.

[tk1138 10]

Here's what you need to do (this will only work to it's full potential if you own a copy of Operation Arrowhead because all the buildings are enterable).

Install @ACE mod and install @ZEUS AI mod, change skill settings in your .ArmA2Profile: skillFriendly=0.98500001; skillEnemy=0.99500001; precisionFriendly=0.5; precisionEnemy=0.48999981;

Set all enemy skill sliders to 100 per cent

Place the enemy AI near good cover like buildings and walls and I gaurantee you will be in for one hell of a firefight. At those setting it's not unusual for squad sized firefights in places like Zargabad to last for well over an hour so bring extra ammo. Be careful because the enemy AI will try to flank you when you are pinned, good luck.

Without those mods and settings the AI are dumber than a rock.

ok currently the ace mod is incompatible with the current version of zeus mod, at least i think i read this some where...currently the slider in the difficulty options are set to 100%, and in my mission editiors i max out the skill there as well...however as soon as zeus is updated i will be getting that one....thanks for the advice...but it dosent change the fact that many of these online server coop have AI set to what seems like statue mode or where they are easy...

[jblackrupert 14]

AI set at 100% don't get smarter. They just get more accurate.

All your doing is turning on an aimbot.

Domination servers simply switching to two team mode would do miracles for the game.

Edited October 3, 2011 by jblackrupert

[HyperU2 11]

You want Domination servers to turn into empty PVP servers?

[djfluffwug 10]

So what?

What's with these recent comments "I've asked 10 people to play ArmA and only one liked it! The game has a problem, the game must be changed!"?

Not all games must be for people who just want to float through corridors, crying "lolz pwnzoor".

Agreed. Not all games are for those type people but my friends were very excited by the idea of ArmA since they are into simulation style games. It wasn't a question of their patients. It was mostly the bugs that put them off the game and the faults it has. I wasn't saying the game needs to be changed into the newest call of battlefield 9, I was just saying that the clunky control system and some of the bugs need to be fixed better on the newest awesome looking ArmA 3 for people to really get into it more!

Not trying to have a go at ArmA 2. It was an awesome game but some of it's stuff can put people off that I mentioned above. I am trying to give some critisism that can be looked upon for further improvement :)

[Cripsis 10]

ok currently the ace mod is incompatible with the current version of zeus mod, at least i think i read this some where

I haven't encountered any problems, perhaps they are using ACE and ZEUS AI in combination with another mod that is causing trouble.

but it dosent change the fact that many of these online server coop have AI set to what seems like statue mode or where they are easy...

I have to agree with you there, I've watched hundreds of ARMA co-op videos on Youtube and the enemy AI is miserably inadequate, it's not my place to judge how people prefer to play ARMA but I certainly agree that I personally would find it extremely boring fighting against harmless bots.

AI set at 100% don't get smarter. They just get more accurate.

All your doing is turning on an aimbot

I guess that depends on your definition of realism. I prefer to play against AI that are capable of quickly killing me and my squad if I don't use cover. The setting's I use don't automatically turn the enemy into invincible warriors, they can be overcome, but it requires care and maneuver to get a tactical advantage. I get a thrill out of knowing that the AI will punish me if I don't use realistic tactics.

[Janat 10]

The biggest turn off for me is the clunky squad command interface, and lack of control in HC interface. Squad command works just fine if you don't participate in actual combat and have enemy map icons on, but in the heat of battle it's impossible to effectively command your team. A quick to use radial menu with commands like suppress that position, move there, follow me, take point, flank left/right, attack that enemy, engage and disengage, open fire and hold fire, and all formation commands would help a great deal when you're playing as a team leader.

[wiggum2 31]

AI set at 100% don't get smarter. They just get more accurate.

All your doing is turning on an aimbot.

This is so true, thanks for posting this...

I watched many Coop videos on Youtube where the players act like they are in a real military fighting in real combat (no offense, if you like it thats ok).

But realising that you can play with all realism Mods turned on and still have a very limited opponent that is only dangerous because of his Aimbot is priceless.

Maybe the AI in ArmA2 is good (better then in other FPS), but still far away from acting believably. The Mission designer himselfe has to do that by using clever scripting in combination with carefully done waypoints & triggers.

Most (maybe all) official missions fail on this task.

While playing the PMC campaign with a friend we realised how bad the AI was, just because the developers were not able to make them act believably in any way. Most missions looked totally stupid because of that.

Other oficial missions were not really better also...

The biggest turn off for me is the clunky squad command interface, and lack of control in HC interface. Squad command works just fine if you don't participate in actual combat and have enemy map icons on, but in the heat of battle it's impossible to effectively command your team. A quick to use radial menu with commands like suppress that position, move there, follow me, take point, flank left/right, attack that enemy, engage and disengage, open fire and hold fire, and all formation commands would help a great deal when you're playing as a team leader.

+ 1

As i said before, not everyone it a multi-tasking octopus that can (or is willing to) command his squad in combat with this clunky squad command interface.

If ArmA3 still uses this damn relict from OFP i will think twice if i will buy it. A radial menu DR style is a must have in 2012 !

[Gunter Severloh 4056]

ok currently the ace mod is incompatible with the current version of zeus mod,

at least i think i read this some where

Download:

Zeus AI Combat Skills & AI Spotting modular - ACE

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id...ight=ZEUS%2BAI

For the Zeus use the following:

- zeu_ACE_c_wep_dispersion

- zeu_FindCover

- zeu_GLx

- zeu_netcode

- zeu_sys_AI

remove the following:

- zeu_c_ai_recognition

- zeu_c_ai_rof

- zeu_c_ai_skill

ACE for OA has AI enhancement.

The biggest turn off for me is the clunky squad command interface, and lack of control in HC interface.

Squad command works just fine if you don't participate in actual combat and have enemy map icons on,

but in the heat of battle it's impossible to effectively command your team.

A quick to use radial menu with commands like suppress that position, move there, follow me, take point, flank left/right,

attack that enemy, engage and disengage, open fire and hold fire, and all formation commands would help a great deal when you're playing as a team leader.

Playing since this whole series started, one gets very accustomed to the way the menu works for commanding AI and other actions,

but I do and would like to see a better and simpler action interface similar to those from BF2,Rainbow six raven shield,

a radial menu would indeed feel better.

How to set it up would be unique as the number of commands as well as actions are pretty great.

Although if we just go with a radial dial for just AI command i think that could solve alot if issues with AI.

I bet a modder can script this, as things like this have already been done in certain missions,

Idk about a radial menu but menus none the less have been done, so if a modder can do it I dont see how BIS couldn't pull it off.

If i knew how I would have been on it already, theres nothing you cannot do in this game and thats what I love about it,

but I do agree we need a better simpler, faster system for commanding Ai at least.

[BFHCxPanther 19]

I really want to know if any of you have a problem with age because I'm thinking of buying the game but I don't want to be bitched at for having a childish voice.

Note: I'm not the kind of person who goes lone wolf and doesn't care about my squad-mates. I'm more like the kind of person who wants to use team work and is willing to act like it's real life (only if I have to because I don't want to sound stupid you know). I will listen to all of you're commands and in no way do the opposite. I want to play this game to it's fullist potential, I want to play ARMA the way it was meant to be played.

Thank you.

[Cripsis 10]

But realising that you can play with all realism Mods turned on and still have a very limited opponent that is only dangerous because of his Aimbot is priceless.

The enemy AI will always remain impotent if you intentionally restrict their accuracy. In the real world when a bullet zips past your head it's time to take immediate cover because the next round will very likely hit it's mark. The only possible way the enemy AI can imitate real life tactics, like flanking, is by enabling some of them to lay down accurate fire on your position while the others maneuver. Iv'e had to hastily withdraw many times when using ZeusAI and ACE mods because the incoming fire was so heavy and accurate that it enabled some of the other enemy AI to flank and even frontal assault my position.

The purpose of suppression fire is to prevent the enemy from observing, firing and maneuvering, and no other game can simulate suppression fire as realisticaly as ARMA does, unless of course you handicap the enemy AI.

[wiggum2 31]

@BFHCxPanther

Play the game and have fun, in the end its just a FPS...

(But one of the best for sure !)

The enemy AI will always remain impotent if you intentionally restrict their accuracy. In the real world when a bullet zips past your head it's time to take immediate cover because the next round will very likely hit it's mark. The only possible way the enemy AI can imitate real life tactics, like flanking, is by enabling some of them to lay down accurate fire on your position while the others maneuver. Iv'e had to hastily withdraw many times when using ZeusAI and ACE mods because the incoming fire was so heavy and accurate that it enabled some of the other enemy AI to flank and even frontal assault my position.

I never was able to see that supressive fire works in ArmA2.

If you give the AI aimbot, sure they will be extrem accurate and thats why you are hiding and retreating. It is not the ability of the AI to supress you, it is just your fear of a AK sniper laying inthe high grass 400m away...although thats maybe the same... ;)

Fact is, at least you cant supress the AI because they dont fear to die during Coop sessions like you do. AI cant be supressed and forced to stay at a static position keeping their heads down. They will fight for death or retreat (run away) and die that way.

What i try to explain is this:

You cant supress a enemy AI HMG position.

You can kill them and thats it...or maybe try do get them to fcus their fire on you while your buddys try to flank them.

Artillery also dont works in supressing the enemy. They will not go into cover and wait till the strike is over...

I can fire a 120mm shell right next to the HMG position, if they dont get killed by the blast then i have failed, because they cant be impressed with such stuff, they will still keep shooting at you instead of stay in cover for some time, recoverying from the shock and blast or maybe try to rout if they think that the next shell could kill them.

AI knows no fear like you, and thats why you cant supress them...and sure, with a aimbot you really have to fear any AI bullet. :rolleyes:

The purpose of suppression fire is to prevent the enemy from observing, firing and maneuvering, and no other game can simulate suppression fire as realisticaly as ARMA does, unless of course you handicap the enemy AI.

Combat Mission (although its not a FPS) simulates suppression fire much better then ArmA.

I also like the way supression works in Command Ops (which cant be compared to ArmA because it simulates operational warfare).

Edited October 3, 2011 by Wiggum

[Engioc 10]

I'm not entirely sure I understand what your getting at here but to me its the Toybox/sandbox element that wins in gaming these days.

Sure there are plenty of games pushing you along a linear story where you hand held all the way. Sure Arma is totally different because it gives you total freedom, but there are plenty of other games doing that too and quite successfully.

Grand Theft Auto, Test Drive Unlimited, Assassin's Creed, Mafia, Saints Row, The Elder Scrolls series are all examples of games that offer a sandbox free roam style of gameplay. I know some of these games open that world up to you slowly by locking off parts of the map until you achieve certain goals like a GTA but even then if you talk to most people who play it the first thing they do is try to open up that world asap, deliberately targeting the missions that unlock the whole map.

So for me ArmA is a winner because of the gameplay it offers. I see many reasons why it fails to capture the attention of main stream gamers but I dont think its the sandbox element thats to blame.

For those who dont know me, which is probably most of you, I don't often come on forums posting, these forums or any others. I don't consider myself to be a hardcore milsim player and my knowledge of anything military is VERY limited. I play ArmA because I love all kinds of games, I'm a hardcore gamer but not in any one genre. If ArmA became too much like all the FPS out there I'd probably stop buying it. When I look for games I love games that offer something really different and ArmA certainly does that.

I know they want to grow the audience and I hate seeing posts by people who are so against that, sometimes you posts on here and feel a real sense of elitism by some people who play ArmA and infact many other more realistic hardcore games suffer from this same problem. All the military buffs and realism freaks think its better to leave everything the same as it is now and "stuff attracting new players because they'll only muck it up anyway" is often the sort of attitude you get.

So I'm not against attracting more people to play including the most casual of gamers but I think they need to be careful about how they do that. ArmA needs to stick to what its good at and that is realism. Don't make a game that just copies what everyone else is doing, win because you offer something truly different and so far that is exactly what they are doing.

Sameness is exactly what's killing PC gaming, someone has a great idea to make a RTS and suddenly everyone jumps in an makes one (most of them not worth your money), make a FPS and suddenly everyone just copies that same old formula and again most of them simply aren't worth the money unless your a total FPS freak.

I only play 3 FPS style games being ArmA, Call of Juarez, and Outlaws, because they each offered me something a little different to the usual Doom running around in endless tunnels that look like the last tunnel I just ran down. I know FPS games have changed a lot since then but most of them still are stuck on copying one formula. COD, BF, MW, heck I dont even remember the names of them but they all look the same to me. God forbid that ArmA ever became like those games, because for all its faults it really shits on the rest of the FPS pack even if most gamers are too dumb to know it.

One other comment I read on here was that most gamers do want to be hand held the whole way and that is one of the big problems with ArmA because you have to do some thinking, but if you do the hand holding for a while they eventually discover what is so great about it. Back in the early 00s I used to run a small games club where I worked, just using the network after hours to do some multiplayer. I remember many times with some old RPG games I was in to (Might and Magic, Ultima) trying to get other people to play them was hard because of the same problem. They'd love it when they see me playing but when they sit down to play it they wanted me to say go here do this, go there pick up that, etc etc. The game didn't force them down any one route and people do find that hard because so many other games lack that freedom.

My solution to the problem is rather than changing ArmA in to something simpler I'd rather see BI make another spin off game. Just something that helps get the name out there, people will play it, get used to some of the simple parts of the game and when they reach the end will be encouraged to try the bigger full blown ArmA experience. I know they have a limited amount of resources but BI look like a company that is definitely moving up the ladder slowly, just look at the number of games recently or soon to be released and its obvious to me ArmA2 has brought in reasonable profit. Not so long ago people were saying IF there would ever be an ArmA3 2012 and we'll have it. Once thats released focus on a smaller version of it, maybe even one that can be sold on consoles (I know that comment will upset a few people lol, its a dirty word around here).

[EDcase 87]

In ARMA the power of the server is CRITICAL to the 'intelligence' of the AI.

I've played many CoOp and PvP games on our clan server.

When playing PvP mixed with AI its very hard to tell which is which sometimes. Yes you do get the odd AI that stands in the road or does something weird but I've seen many examples when they will hide behind cover and lean out to take shots just like humans.

Of course AI will never be cunning like a human. They don't plan ahead.

The problem with dedicated PvP servers is that it needs quite a few people to get started so it will be empty most of the time.

Servers where there is an admin are much better because CoOp is used while waiting for enough people then a PvP game can be started.

Edited October 3, 2011 by EDcase

[Cripsis 10]

I never was able to see that supressive fire works in ArmA2

That's odd, do you use Zeus AI mod?

Combat Mission (although its not a FPS) simulates suppression fire much better then ArmA.

Yeah I play Combat Mission Shock Force with Marines and Nato modules, great game.

[froggyluv 2136]

When playing PvP mixed with AI its very hard to tell which is which sometimes. Yes you do get the odd AI that stands in the road or does something weird but I've seen many examples when they will hide behind cover and lean out to take shots just like humans.

True to an extent -tho if they were able to use more objects such as vehicles and interiors for cover as well as staying crouched, rise vertically to fire, back to crouch -would go a long way to making them feel more human. That would be fun as hell imo.

[wiggum2 31]

That's odd, do you use Zeus AI mod?

No, and i did not know that this mod gives me the ability to properly supress the AI...

I usually dont like AI mods that can break your carefully done missions.

[instagoat 133]

Arma´s suppression mechanic both for the player and the AI is kind of, well, nonexistent right now. All that happens is that you shake a little more, same goes for the AI.

That is all tidbits, however. I think to be warmed up to the hobby, new players will need to have the heat turned up slowly, so to speak. I am really interested in hearing what the devs have planned for that in Arma 3, how they´ll be easing the players in or not.

[tk1138 10]

ACE 1.2 RC5

AI Enhancements (Extended engagement ranges, improved ROF selection, improved spotting capabilities, improved accuracy, faster target reacquisition, and throwing smoke while healing).

Not recommended to use with (currently outdated) ZEUS AI config tweaks or similair addons.

[Bee8190 10]

I really want to know if any of you have a problem with age because I'm thinking of buying the game but I don't want to be bitched at for having a childish voice.

Note: I'm not the kind of person who goes lone wolf and doesn't care about my squad-mates. I'm more like the kind of person who wants to use team work and is willing to act like it's real life (only if I have to because I don't want to sound stupid you know). I will listen to all of you're commands and in no way do the opposite. I want to play this game to it's fullist potential, I want to play ARMA the way it was meant to be played.

Dude, I'm mostly playing PvP and i can tell you that some age matters are quite redundant.

Older players tend assume they know better than their SL or commander and are becoming lonewolfes and thus pretty usless to the team.For example Logistics doesn't require any tremendous skills and are very important, even though some team/s only realize that only when they loose them.What any team will value, is maturity, teamwork/dedication and of course its all about having good time.

Back on topic -

After playing the demo back than i thought of it as horrendouse experience to be honest.

The demo felt unfinished, full of bugs with rather funny animations, again, with plenty of bugs and i had no idea how to use all the AI's and pretty much anything since even manual didn't cover pretty much anything.So i joined some server where absolutely nothing was happening, AI was standing without moving and everything was on fire.People didn't communicate nor respond (I was lucky to figure out how to use chat) to any comments, no matter how polite i was.

I got back to arma later however, after watching some videos from full game which looked really great and like hell lot of fun so i bought AO and continued my everyday research on how to do stuff, how mods works, and how to use the editor.

All in all it was very challanging to get some basic grip on the game but it was quite fun as i was becoming pretty curious about this whole Arma game potential.Nonetheless, community made missions and addons is what make this game trully outstanding and IMO is what keeps arma alive.

[hellfire257 3]

Well said Bee.

And if they do give hassle to younger players, go ahead and be the underdog: show them how it's done!

I think the difference is simply how much you can be bothered. Those who can be bothered to take the time to try mods, the editor, and different MP styles will inevitably enjoy the game more than those who cannot be bothered.