The trouble with getting people into Arma

[instagoat 133]

So does BIS have to cut out/butcher squad command because it was harder to understand than a usual shooter gameplay?

Absolutely not! I´m not trying to lobby for dumbing the game down here, all I am proposing is a perspective on why it could be that the general gamer has a hard time getting into the game.

Arma is complex and vast, and I wouldn´t want to loose that in arma 3. Streamlining and optimization, yes, but dumbing down and ditching features for the sake of easy access, no.

[reaper lok 82]

I have only recently joined the wonderful world that is ArmA. I am hooked, addicted and boarder line obsessed with its complexity and depth. Each time I sit down to 'play' I discover more and more features as I slowly peel back the layers of this fantastic Mil-sim.

I think the MP or co-op situation is an area that needs a little more thought but only as far as making joining games and uploading the necessary mod files and addons (automatically) at the front end.

There is nothing more frustrating for a newer player than to spend 2 hours trying to set the correct parameters to join a session only to discover 3 error messages regarding missing textures etc :)

Just yesterday I discovered two game modes (Warfare and Domination).....wow, amazing!!! Cannot wait for ArmA 3 and will upgrade my PC for this game alone, worth every penny IMHO.

Edited September 29, 2011 by REAPER LOK

[dmarkwick 261]

I think Arma, excluding CWA, is not a game. It is a hobby.

Great, great thread InstaGoat :)

ArmA is so flexible a sandbox that there really is no reason at all not to have missions that span all kinds of game types. If there is a market segment that, for whatever reason, needs to have stock, default missions that can be easily set up, selected, rotated etc in a quick and easy manner, then there's no real reason why ArmA cannot do that. All it takes is for BIS to supply those missions as part of the default install.

Another big thing though, is that the FIRST release of ArmA3 needs to be pretty solid. A lot of gamers are turned off a product if it's flaky on release, and it takes a lot of effort to get them to return to it, if it's even possible.

[mosh 0]

I realize BIS wants to make A3 more attractive to new players, but I just hope the sandbox/toybox/simulation aspect of ArmA isn't lost for the sake of transient players.

+1

I also agree with the OP about it being more of a hobby than a game. But that's what keeps me interested. Any other game bores me in a few days.

It's also sad I couldn't get any of my friends (only one plays but we have opposite work schedules) to play either... but instead I have met some of the coolest people on this planet who do play.

[EDcase 87]

One friend bought ARMA2 (and TrackIR) after I showed it to him but he stopped playing after few weeks and got MW3. FPDR I think because he was an ex-marine ;) (Haven't spoken to him since)

I think its a combination of things that put new players off:

- Awkward UI and squad commands etc. (The key map table is enough to put someone off)

- Awkward movement of character. Not smooth and fluid.

- Complexity of mods/addons. (Easy once you know how but a nightmare for new players)

I think/hope most of these issues will be resolved in ARMA3

ARMA gameplay is different from other FPS because its slower paced and requires more thought (tactics)

I've been watching vids of BF3 and while it looks great the gameplay hasn't changed from any other FPS in the past.

- Spawn

- Run like crazy to objective or grab a vehicle forgetting anyone else.

- Run around and jump as much as possible, shooting like crazy at enemy even if friendlies are in line of fire.

- Or find a good sniping place and camp.

- Die

- Respawn and repeat...

So some people(kids) will not like ARMA gameplay even if all other issues are resolved

Edited September 29, 2011 by EDcase

[ziiip 1]

I realize BIS wants to make A3 more attractive to new players, but I just hope the sandbox/toybox/simulation aspect of ArmA isn't lost for the sake of transient players.

You are too late on that, EA has acquired BIS and are now working at full throttle to trim all the unnecessary fat that might confuse people with an IQ below 50.

[Minoza 11]

You are too late on that, EA has acquired BIS and are now working at full throttle to trim all the unnecessary fat that might confuse people with an IQ below 50.

^^:dancehead:

[metalcraze 290]

Absolutely not! I´m not trying to lobby for dumbing the game down here, all I am proposing is a perspective on why it could be that the general gamer has a hard time getting into the game.

And the lack of time has nothing to do with that. If you've noticed from polls appearing once in a blue moon the absolute majority of ArmA gamers are adults who also have jobs.

I certainly had more time to play games when I was a school kiddie

Arma is complex and vast, and I wouldn´t want to loose that in arma 3. Streamlining and optimization, yes, but dumbing down and ditching features for the sake of easy access, no.

Isn't this new buzzword "streamlining" used for "dumbing down" these days?

F.e. how can you "streamline" an AI squad command with ~70 commands without butchering stuff?

[dmarkwick 261]

F.e. how can you "streamline" an AI squad command with ~70 commands without butchering stuff?

By making it easier to use for one thing.

[instagoat 133]

Isn't this new buzzword "streamlining" used for "dumbing down" these days?

F.e. how can you "streamline" an AI squad command with ~70 commands without butchering stuff?

With great difficulty. I tried to do it back in 2009 using pen and paper, using multiple layers instead of the two/three we have now, reducing commands, grouping commands, but the system right now is really as good as you can get it without making it less complex.

What CAN be done, however, is better labelling, and improving the context sensitive command bar. Good, clear labelling can go a long ways in information design, which is what the command bar ultimately touches upon.

The player needs to see at first glance what a command does. Example:

If I click "Flank Right", I would expect the Unit to attack its current target, and try to flank it from the right. Instead, the Unit takes up flank guard to the right, and stays there.

If I click "Advance", I would expect the Unit to move towards the current enemy position, putting down fire in the meanwhile. What this command really should say is "Take point".

Bad labelling is the real crux right now, not complexity. Complexity is daunting, but good tutorials can teach newbs how to deal with it. And they don´t need it anyway if they want to do coop/pvp multiplayer anyway.

[ghost101 10]

"getting people into arma" - well, you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink. so your attempts are futile.

I've become saddened to see ArmA fans around here who seem to have a bad case of CoD penis envy. all trying desperately to think of ways to make ArmA "attractive". but it's never going to happen. you cannot make a milsim attractive to people with absolutely no interest in milsims.

ArmA will always have a steady stream of players who are attracted to the game's depth. all those people who grow-up and eventually become bored of CoD and BF will seek ArmA. The exposure of a new ArmA release will also make the game known to more. but bending the game to fit the expectations of retards will not work.

I repeat what others have said, ArmA is NOT a difficult game to play. Its interface (although far from perfect) is NECESSARILY complex. its "lack of dramatic action" is a matter of perspective & perception ONLY. any attempt to please retards will simply diminish ArmA's brilliance and depth. you should think about the detrimental effect your desire to become populist would have on ArmA and reconsider your priorities.

After reading some of Marek Španěl's ambitious plans for the original "Game 2" 6-8 years ago, i realize that he has been aiming for complexity beyond even the ArmAs we have today. a retarded instant gratification shooter does not seem to be in his plans for ArmA. you should all be ashamed wanting to change ArmA into a half-baked CoD clone just to attract borderline retards to the game.

---------- Post added at 02:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 PM ----------

Bad labelling is the real crux right now, not complexity. Complexity is daunting, but good tutorials can teach newbs how to deal with it. And they don´t need it anyway if they want to do coop/pvp multiplayer anyway.

"bad labelling" is not what put your 7 friends off of arma, i assure you. you are right, some of the labelling is poor, but i simply use my brain to map those poor labels to what makes sense to me personally.

even tutorials will not help a great deal, although they _should_ be improved - just to make things slightly less frustrating for new players who would have the potential to stick with the game even with the current poor tutorials.

Edited September 29, 2011 by ghost101

[wiggum2 31]

F.e. how can you "streamline" an AI squad command with ~70 commands without butchering stuff?

Throw away the useless stuff and/or finally make a Command Menu that is more intuitiv to use, Dragon Rising had a really great squad command menu...

1000 times better then the current ArmA2 one.

[neokika 62]

Throw away the useless stuff and/or finally make a Command Menu that is more intuitiv to use, Dragon Rising had a really great squad command menu...

1000 times better then the current ArmA2 one.

Do you even mean a menu that will make you not able to control your character when you using it?

No thanks.

_neo_

[wiggum2 31]

That was a issue, still 100 times better then the current ArmA2 one !

You had more control, it was faster and more intuitiv and finally much easier to learn for new players.

Oh, and it looked way better... :p

[ghost101 10]

That was a issue, still 100 times better then the current ArmA2 one !

You had more control, it was faster and more intuitiv and finally much easier to learn for new players.

Oh, and it looked way better... :p

we like control, specific precise control. and we don't mind putting in the effort required to learn how the commands work. is that okay with you?

or must we all be bored to death with your style of gameplay! :cool:

[dmarkwick 261]

Do you even mean a menu that will make you not able to control your character when you using it?

No thanks.

_neo_

Solution would be a hotkey that flashed up the onscreen menu only when needed, and can be dismissed as easily as releasing the hotkey.

Oh - and to have it augmentary not a replacement. IMO onscreen menus help more people than they hinder.

---------- Post added at 03:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:25 PM ----------

we like control, specific precise control. and we don't mind putting in the effort required to learn how the commands work. is that okay with you?

or must we all be bored to death with your style of gameplay! :cool:

I have my doubts about players who claim to be able to move, navigate the menu and use the numerical ordering system all at the same time :)

[antoineflemming 14]

Couldn't you have a radial menu that would still allow you to move (but maybe not look around)? And couldn't you still have hotkeys? I mean, it doesn't have to be like O F P D R

[dmarkwick 261]

Couldn't you have a radial menu that would still allow you to move (but maybe not look around)? And couldn't you still have hotkeys? I mean, it doesn't have to be like O F P D R

Radial/onscreen menus have been discussed a lot here. I'm in favour of them, because they can be implemented without affecting the traditional "BIS" control mechanisms, as well as make more sense to a lot more people.

As radial menus would essentially be duplicating the numerical key system, there's no reason not to have that as a part-way option, so that the radial appears but you still use numerical keys, thus enabling you to control your character still. Myself, I'd prefer a hotkey where the radial appears, I make my choices with my mouse, and it goes away again. I don't imagine that I'd need to race about AND give detailed orders to units, it seems to me that a leader would make those decisions from cover anyway.

[ghost101 10]

I have my doubts about players who claim to be able to move, navigate the menu and use the numerical ordering system all at the same time

well, i guess i don't. i'm rarely in a situation where I'm unable to pause for a fraction

of a second to issue a command. most of the commands are squad state change commands anyway, so once they're set it's a relatively long time before a change in squad state is needed again.

anyway, i'm not suggesting that the interface couldn't do with an overhaul (targeting, fe, is NOT nice). i'd really like to see a radial menu of some kind too, that doesn't rely on keyboard input and filters out commands based (to some degree) on context. that's not the same as saying I want to strip out a whole load of commands and make the system less expressive..which is what Wiggam is saying.

[Antigoon 10]

Put in the time and effort to join an Arma community or clan, play some decent coop or tvt games with them and if you ditch the "fragrate" attitude and adopt the teamwork/support attitude....you'll enjoy the game immensely for years to come!

This is only my opinion, but I don't like the idea of making comparisons with other games and saying "why doesn't BIS do it that way?" because of what another game does. Let BIS do their thing with their games, and the other game developers theirs. I see no point in trying to come up with a common flavor in order to attract more customers. It'll quickly become a rather bland flavor. Something BIS has always managed to avoid, and I, for one, see that as a good thing.

[weaponsfree 46]

Having the complex number based commands still seems pretty necessary. Any other solution will require some amount of time to punch in since there are vast amounts of possible actions.

I don't think anyone has mentioned voice commands as a possible solution. It may piss off the wives/girlfriends/roomates to have an Arma player barking orders into a mic, but seems to me it would be a pretty solid solution to some of these problems.

And there are ways of making the existing model at least easier on the player if not simpler. For example, making the contextual popups cleaner and more intuitive. I can't count the number of times I've walked around doors, cars, ladders not being able to get the proper action menu popup.

Otherwise, I've found it's really a question of what kind of gamer a person is. Some people just don't like Arma. Even with friends who's expectations I've tried to manage get pretty shaken up when first playing. Playing a first coop game with a friend, he kept repeating "where are they, I can't see them!". But once he understood to look further than 20 meters in front of him, he got into it. Hit or miss I guess.

[dmarkwick 261]

Having the complex number based commands still seems pretty necessary. Any other solution will require some amount of time to punch in since there are vast amounts of possible actions.

Well a visual radial menu system wouldn't take any more time to punch in, because it's the same system as the numerical one. All you're doing is changing the input device. The same code etc would be executed, and the same submenus can be employed, just displayed in a different format.

The advantages are many, the disadvantages none. The existing system can remain exactly as it is for those used to the old system. A new system would make the ordering system more intuitive, quicker, easier and more people would be more prone to make more use of them.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Those who don't like to memorize keys and numbers will always be in favour for an visual (colored) confirmation screen clutter. No matter how awkward it will feel + look.

[dmarkwick 261]

Those who don't like to memorize keys and numbers will always be in favour for an visual (colored) confirmation screen clutter. No matter how awkward it will feel + look.

Awkward is your word. Awkward is also how I feel when I need to take my attention off the screen and look at the keyboard to get the right number for the orders, then back up to the screen again, then back down again to find the next number etc. Not a biggie maybe, but I cannot see a downside to an optional visual system also.

[ghost101 10]

It's probably the single most effective thing they could do to make the game more "accessible" - WITHOUT dumbing it down in any way. Like DMarkwick says, it would just be an alternative visual interface to existing commands.

I could see many new users using it and then progressing on to the keyboard interface if they find it quicker.

It should definitely be an optional feature though.

Edited September 29, 2011 by ghost101