Vora_bat content theft

[therev709 10]

Continued conversation from NZXSHADOWS' thread. We've hijacked his thread long enough, lets dedicate this one to the debate.

Quick summary: Vora_bat on Moddb is the principle developer for several mod projects for the game Men of War. He has been accused of stealing models from Arma1 and Arma2 modders. AFAIK he's been accused of stealing from Johnny and NZXSHADOWS.

Here is a video detailing models used in Vora_bat's mods are from Johnny's Arma1 models.

Below are pictures comparing NZXSHADOWS Arma1 M1151 model to the humvees used in Vora_bat's MoW Models.

Evidence A - Larger photo is NZXSHADOWS, smaller one is from Vora_bat's Moddb page.

Evidence B and Evidence C - Models disassembled, blue is NZXSHADOWS and red is Vora_bat.

Placebo has contacted the Moddb staff and they suspended all of Vora_bat's mods until he could prove the models aren't the same. Vora_bat has released several pictures (listed below) that compare the wire frames of the models, which Moddb has taken at face value and henceforth un-suspended his mods from their site.

Pic 1

Pic 2

Pic 3

Pic 4

Pic 5

Pic 6

Of first approach you would say "those are two totally different models!"

Look again, and pay attention to detail please.

What pops out at me is while the polygon count is different, the details are not. Look at the details in the undercarriage alone: Pic

I don't see how the details in the bottom of the vehicle model are exactly the same and yet this be a totally different model made by scratch. Sure, the top and outer details can be created by scratch, but there are not a lot of super detailed pictures of a Humvee's undercarriage floating around the internet, not enough to create the exact same one purely by coincidence.

Also, how is it that the scale of his model is an exact match for NZXSHADOWS? Pic A

Pic B

I also believe that this is further evidence that if Vora_bat did create his model separately from NZXSHADOWS, he did use the Arma sample model and simply copied the details from NZXSHADOWS' model. Again, this is a clear legal violation of the EULA.

Finally, I again look at the level of detail not consistent with the M1151 Humvee.

The Rhino arm, concertina wire, gunner's cupola, front bumper, windows, wiper blades, doors, side view mirrors and antenna array are all the same:

Pic

Inside of the vehicle the radio, seats, gunners platform are all the same (and I don't understand why a vehicle in an RTS requires this level of detail):

Pic

Finally: the rear mud flaps, rear bumper, rear tire, rear antenna array are all the exact same:

Pic

Once again, the polygon count is the only thing that differentiates these two models, yet every single detail is the exact same on both of them. If this is true, and this is a modified model then not only did Vora_bat steal from NZXSHADOWS, but from BIS as well since he is clearly violating the EULA for the BIS sample models for Arma.

I personally think the evidence is clear. I'm going to deliver this evidence (again) to Moddb staff and BIS developers, and hopefully we can put this to rest.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Whether or not he's still using other people's stuff, he should have learned his lesson by now and should just stay away from any of these issues. He's definately "borrowed" stuff in the past (including BI's models) so it is hard to believe he's created very similiar models completely from scratch.

[Spartan 163 0]

I have seen this before. It is polygon reduction program. Blender has a version of it built in and there are lots of smaller programs that do the same thing. It will crunch the polygon count but keep the base model. Do a Google and you can find them easy.

[NZXSHADOWS 0]

His model is a derivative model. I dont think he an some other people understand the concept of the term. I think he should have more confidence in himself an start doing his work on his own an not take anything from others with out permission.

[nodunit 397]

Or at the very least ask for permission.

[soul_assassin 1747]

very obvious derivative, although the guy seemingly try quite hard to conceal this fact.

Vor in russian means thief :P

[[frl]myke 14]

The "coloured" model has been triangulated, a process which takes seconds in O2. I don't think any good modeller would have a entire Resolution LOD with tris only if it isn't necessary. Even from a practical POV, having sqaures makes it easier to look at it in O2 while modelling.

OMFG, now i see it...of course they're completely different...one is red and the other is multicolored...:D

[ACPL Jon 68]

afaik Moddb unsuspended his mods as far as he doesn't include the HMMWV... guess what... this asshole said, watch it:

sorry, but as humvee was supposed to be used in new mission, there will be no mission in version fro Moddb. Though, it will be in other version that are not going to published here.

Arrogant enough? He changed his avatar to trolly one, now he got his mods back, he feels reaaally confident.

What's even more sad, that there's a big fanboy base of "his" mod, who defend him (who cares he did stole the model, I wantz dis mod so badly so itz kk, mkay) and people from other teams making "support for vora_bat" action. DUH...

[Kastrenzo 10]

That's his style anyway, he acts like an internet tough guy. He thinks he can get away from everything so he never admits to anything.

And he still hosts his mods with all the Modern Warfare 2 content, and probably the old ones with Arma 2 content aswell, on many Russian and Ukrainian domains, since they don't really enforce anything Intellectual content theft.

The Hummvee model that was in question had a different wireframe, he relies on that soley as his defense, I don't model, but I know enough about it that changing the wireframe is just a matter of increasing or decreasing polygons, that was done on a few faces on the humvee but it was obviously still the same.

Given his long history of stealing, I dont know how anyone can take him seriously, or how anyone with an IQ Over 50 would beileve that he's truly started making his own content.

My argument is that he has serious quality control issues. His Infantry models are inconsistent, some weapon models are of much higher or lower standards than others in the same set. And his Land Vehicles are even more detailed than the ones he ripped from MW2,

[secludedsfx 10]

To me it looks like the UK weapons he got are extremely similar to the UKF weapons too so everything with this just seems really fishy tbh

[dmarkwick 261]

To be honest I wouldn't like to call it. Not based on those images, where he's gone from tripled geometry to poly geometry. Some of the details are of a lower quality (example the upper seat cushion areas are not shaped properly on the front driver/passenger area) and a lot of the proportions are different.

If he's used another model, I should say he used it as a background layer reference. IMO. I wouldn't like to say its definately an actual derivative. I understand there are possible past activities, but I have no knowledge of these so I judge only by the evidence presented here.

I might be more convinced if someone could extract just the barbed-wire coil and expand on that, that would show more convincing detail.

[Shadow NX 1]

All this reminds me of the good ol OFP days where the Orcs battled the RHS dwarfs and things like a release with textures and parts of a model used that we never released and such things.

And back then it was like it is now on modDB, general opinion isw, wtf, let the man do his stuff as long as we get a mod or addon in the end we dont even care where it comes from.

Or even better the hay why arent you happy he used your stuff approach.

This will probably never change, majority never made something themselfs and cant imagine how long certain things take so they dont know how it is to work on something that long and someone just rips it in minutes and gets the fame for it.

The fun thing is that in some cases if asked for permission it wouldnt even be a problem like we at RHS also gave some RTS mods ok to use some older models.

As soon a swe finally release our infantry i already see the ports and rips comming :(

Hopefully the ModDB guys take notice and finally kick his troll butt out... makes me even want to delete our page there if thats how it works on ModDB.

[[frl]myke 14]

Take a closer look at the Hummvee model. Just triangulating the red model will bring appereance and polycount pretty close to the coloured. It's a default process to triangulate MLOD's for shadow LOD in O2.

[dmarkwick 261]

Myke;1992689']Take a closer look at the Hummvee model. Just triangulating the red model will bring appereance and polycount pretty close to the coloured. It's a default process to triangulate MLOD's for shadow LOD in O2.

My understanding is that it's the triangulated model that is the "original", and the >3point poly model that is the alleged derivative.

[[frl]myke 14]

My understanding is that it's the triangulated model that is the "original", and the >3point poly model that is the alleged derivative.

Well, you can also squarize. ;)

:EDITH:

I think the part that would reveal best if it is derivate or not is the cable ruooled up on the front. When 2 modder would create the same cable, it would definately look different in shape as it is nothing with a unique form like a wheel or anything else. Just look it that way: give 2 people a cable to roll it up and it will look different on both...hell, it would look even different when rolled up by the same guy twice in a row.

Edited July 29, 2011 by [FRL]Myke

[da12thMonkey 1943]

To me it looks like the UK weapons he got are extremely similar to the UKF weapons too so everything with this just seems really fishy tbh

I had a look through the LODs of our models and they don't look all that similar to me.

Still, he's definitely ripping off some people's work.

[dmarkwick 261]

Myke;1992694']Well' date=' you can also squarize. ;)[/quote']

Yep but looking at all the differences, it's a lot of work. A lot. So much work, that it'd be easier to make a new model from scratch I should say. Some details are lost, it's not an exact copy. I'm looking at corners and cylinders, different radial edge counts etc. And it's not just quadrizing, it's all kinds of n-point polys.

:EDITH:

I think the part that would reveal best if it is derivate or not is the cable ruooled up on the front. When 2 modder would create the same cable, it would definately look different in shape as it is nothing with a unique form like a wheel or anything else. Just look it that way: give 2 people a cable to roll it up and it will look different on both...hell, it would look even different when rolled up by the same guy twice in a row.

Yeah that's what I meant. I don't know why I wrote barbed wire, it's obviously a cable :D

That would be the convincing detail for me. But the rest - cannot call it. The worst thing I might accuse him of is using the original as a background layer template.

Edited July 29, 2011 by DMarkwick

[Caselius 94]

That's his style anyway, he acts like an internet tough guy. He thinks he can get away from everything so he never admits to anything.

And he still hosts his mods with all the Modern Warfare 2 content, and probably the old ones with Arma 2 content aswell, on many Russian and Ukrainian domains, since they don't really enforce anything Intellectual content theft.

The Hummvee model that was in question had a different wireframe, he relies on that soley as his defense, I don't model, but I know enough about it that changing the wireframe is just a matter of increasing or decreasing polygons, that was done on a few faces on the humvee but it was obviously still the same.

Given his long history of stealing, I dont know how anyone can take him seriously, or how anyone with an IQ Over 50 would beileve that he's truly started making his own content.

My argument is that he has serious quality control issues. His Infantry models are inconsistent, some weapon models are of much higher or lower standards than others in the same set. And his Land Vehicles are even more detailed than the ones he ripped from MW2,

Yep, he has done this many many times before. I reported one of his mods to Placebo, because it used ArmA 2 units. I saw a ArmA 2 Tent,Warfare buildings,Marines,Russians and weapons. Vora later hosted it again on Moddb and got again taken down.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Leopard

[Kastrenzo 10]

To me it looks like the UK weapons he got are extremely similar to the UKF weapons too so everything with this just seems really fishy tbh

I investigated that same thing earlier,It was actually the first thing I looked at before Johnny's models.

I checked both the Arma 1 and Arma 2 UKF Packs, a friend told me he saw some distinctive similarities from the Arma 2 version, I haven't really looked at it that much though

---------- Post added at 08:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 AM ----------

Looking back, one thing that stands out to me is the whole wireframe hummvee thing, Is how the multicoloured one has completley impractical methods of building, Again the programs I modelled on were quite like Blender or 3DS Max, but it looks like someone just tried turning the polycount up, which looks completley overdone for a flat surface.

However I'm not even sure which model is which, I'm saying this assuming that the multicoloured one is Vora's,

And if it's not, the details are still 95% identical, a tire might have been switched, a Steering wheel changed, whatever, but the details are identical and the red version's wireframe just looks like someone had gone liberal with that "polygon reduction"

logically I'd think the red one was Vora's since the RTS game wouldn't be able to support as many polys, considering there are many things on the screen at once, but whatever.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Kastrenzo

[nodunit 397]

Multi colored one is Nzx/Bi's. Though the reasons have a lot to do with how the vehicles are viewed in the game and to what degree's, there may be some LOD mixing going on which would explain why the 50 cal is so high.

[Kastrenzo 10]

Or at the very least ask for permission.

He and a lot of others in that Men of War community like to Steal things and say they made them or they just import models from games/mods and "credit" the authors, When crediting is only half of the pie. Some of them have never heard of the word Consent or Permission before

And another thing, It's baffling really, I stumbled upon another mod of the same game that was using a stolen Assault Rifle from Fallout 3, Named "G3" I showed them where it was from, told them that Bethesda doesn't allow their content to be used like this, and they had to remove it,

The response I got was "No, this is from Vora_bat's Stalker mod and he gave me permission to use it"

He gave you permission to use something he stole, how typical.

Later the guy eventually accepted it was from Fallout and took it down.

Men of War is a very innovative game, but it must sound to you guys like something bordering an Online MMO with the amount of drama that comes from it's community.

The reason why there is so much content theft associated with the game is because it is a very basic and modular design, much like GSC's STALKER Shadow of Chernobyl, the game accepts very basic Coding, Texturing, Modelling, etc.

The coding is done in wordpad and the models can be just basic polygons, so it's very easy to import stuff into it, same reason why Stalker content has popped up in dozens of games, because their content was basic and easy to modify/convert format

*Also, as an FYI, I wasn't someone from Men of war who joined BIS just for this discussion, I've been apart of the ArmA community longer than Men of war, in contrast there were a lot of people from this forum who went over to Moddb to assist in the claims of Content theft, it was very appreciated by those who are seeking to root out the Intellectual Property theft"

Edited July 29, 2011 by Kastrenzo

[Dwarden 1125]

sad is people like him give modding in MoW and MoW:AS really bad name (and there are tons of uniqure great original works)

same bad he does to modDB in general cause the crew can't acts just on some hint and needs really simple yet effective email with proofs ...

ofcourse in case of this person ... i think majority around heard his name in relation to N closed mods (repeatedly violating someone's IP)

[Zipper5 74]

Every modding community has their fair share of assholes who like to steal other peoples' stuff, ours is no different. What matters is people taking a stand against said assholes by rallying the community against them, which is one thing this community is very good at. Great communication between the various modding portals and forums, e.g. Armaholic and here, allows for said stolen IP to be removed very quickly or banned from being hosted on the most popular websites.

I guess the difference here is the community has only recently started using larger modding portals like ModDB, so the aforementioned communication has been easy when it's just between community-specific websites. With Men of War, they're using ModDB from the start, and I would imagine the communication suffers as a result and guys like Vora_bat are left able to steal peoples' work and have no action taken against them. Not that I would hold that against ModDB as their site is very large for them to be ever-attentive to every project.

[ACPL Jon 68]

Like Dwarden said it's not that easy to throw someone out according to the rules. And there's also his russian website, where probably noone (I mean ISP) ever is gonna give a shit.

And there's one big difference Zipper. In ArmA community, guys who steal IP get swarmed and bullied very quickly, in MoW's, they defend the bad guy.

[daman3 19]

The HMMWVs are most likely the same, the squarized is the one from NZDK.

The triangulation comes from the fact, that he probably uses a directX 3d ripping tool, and took the model from a lower resolution lod.

Since it takes the model directly out of the game and all game engines calculate triangulated models in the end (thats right, every square gets triangulated in the end),

its no wonder his model is looking like that.