Development Blog & Reveals

[Alwarren 2767]

Looking at ArmA 3 communities I have not seen one that uses vanilla assets. Ifrits? Nah, Humvees etc. because "realistic modern blah blah"...

You're simply wrong. At CiA we play coop only but the majority of missions are vanilla ones. Not necessarily by choice but rather because most missions are vanilla ones.

Send from my tablet, so pardon any autocorrect bollocks

[mistyronin 1181]

Question: why is anyone looking forward to this new content when you know that just about everyone will mod the shit out of the game and you'll never actually get to experience it?

 

Looking at ArmA 3 communities I have not seen one that uses vanilla assets. Ifrits? Nah, Humvees etc. because "realistic modern blah blah"...

 

Don't get me wrong, tropical islands are my thing and if modding wasn't so widespread in this game I would've jumped on this expansion like an American footballer on a cheerleader in the dressing room after a match... uh... yeah...

 

I am genuinely curious.

Do you realize that the island itself is worth the price content-wise?

Including also the civilian assets, and any realistic and widely used vehicle or weapon that can be retextured. 

Modding has always been the main value of the OFP / Arma series. 

[das attorney 858]

Pretty much what they previously said, actually -- Q1 is almost all (in public) about the push to Eden, while playing their reveals conservatively leaves less ammunition for critics to use against them. :P

 

 

It also means some folks like me will steer clear until I see what's actually in it.

 

Even though it has "pre-order discount", I'm buying on blind faith, and even though they're a pretty fair developer, some previous DLC's have been under par imo (PMC and Marksmen come to mind).  I'd much rather wait until it's been released before parting with cash.

 

The island looks good but we've only seen conservative snippets of it so far.

 

I want it to be good, but having nothing to go on (no videos of units and vehicles in action on Tanoa or at least a list of what's in it) doesn't inspire me to buy at this stage.

[tilen 1]

Do you realize that the island itself is worth the price content-wise?

Including also the civilian assets, and any realistic and widely used vehicle or weapon that can be retextured. 

Modding has always been the main value of the OFP / Arma series. 

I realize it's a relatively great deal and that the content will be awesome, but this is not what I'm disputing. Modding has been the main value for the main consumer base for sure, but I'd be grinning if looking at the numbers I'd see the majority playing Altis Life.

 

For me, vanilla assets is where it's at. But that's the thing. If everything is allowed to be modded and is--as you've pointed out--expected to be, then:

1.) why purchase content that can be modded in

3.) why purchase content that will rarely, if ever, be used

 

Again, I am curious. I am not bashing on anybody here. 

[mistyronin 1181]

I realize it's a relatively great deal and that the content will be awesome, but this is not what I'm disputing. Modding has been the main value for the main consumer base for sure, but I'd be grinning if looking at the numbers I'd see the majority playing Altis Life.

For me, vanilla assets is where it's at. But that's the thing. If everything is allowed to be modded and is--as you've pointed out--expected to be, then:

1.) why purchase content that can be modded in

3.) why purchase content that will rarely, if ever, be used

I don't really understand your point. Precisely the APEX expansion brings a lot of content for all kinds of players (that was the idea behind, expressed by BI devs in the diaries)

For Life and DayZ (or whatever Zombie mod is played nowadays) it brings an amazing new paradisiac island, which fits more their game modes than Altis or Stratis. Besides a tone of civilian stuff for those who roleplay they are cops or thieves...

For realistic MilSim players, a huge new quality background where to conduct their ops, with Civilian stuff to spice it a bit. And some features of the Apex that can be used in addons. Maybe if they portay real weapons even use them straight.

For those who loved the new setting, its just more and more variated. Hopefully with more turret variation.

For SP players a new Coop campaign and few missions. As well as a new background where to create more.

For island makers new quality buildings and vegetation for their new islands.

And all that for €20-30, when most AAA games sell less content expansions for €40-60...

- - -

I, that I'm a vocal critic of how the new setting was implemented and usually play with mods, have played hundreds of hours with only vanilla assets (I passed the SP A3 campaign nine times, the showcases even more times, as well as many SP content that used mainly vanilla assets).

[chortles 263]

Looking at ArmA 3 communities I have not seen one that uses vanilla assets. Ifrits? Nah, Humvees etc. because "realistic modern blah blah"...

Besides Alwarren's direct rebuttal, I'll add that -- as has been pointed out repeatedly in the nearly three years since Arma 3 went into public 'alpha' -- the majority of vanilla military assets have real-world counterparts (the Armed Assault Wikia lists those for vehicles in the individual vehicle articles). As mistyronin alluded to, so long as an asset is close-enough-to-realistically simulated in the eye of the beholder then that's a real-world asset in vanilla ready to go ... and a displayName replacement mod can take care of that, i.e. the Mk20 EGLM/Mk20C â†’ FN F2000 Tactical TR with or without the FN GL1... although the Mk 20 is closer to a FS2000 in overall/visible-portion-of-the-barrel length but with the F2000-style flash suppressor modeled.

 

Likewise, anyone who doesn't mind a covered rear Hunter, either unarmed or with a fictional remote turret (as opposed to the real-life M153 PROTECTOR CROWS II) can just rename it to the Oshkosh M-ATV...

Including also the civilian assets, and any realistic and widely used vehicle or weapon that can be retextured.

You get it too, and even some of the non-military assets can be authentic in the sense of having real-world counterparts, as Arma 2's generically-named civilian vehicles did at times.

[tilen 1]

None of you answered my question, really.

 

@Mistyronin: "It will add stuff that can be further modded." This I know, and this is not precisely the issue. It is that it likely will be moded beyond recognition AND that there already are a ton of civilian assets etc. in the Steam Workshop with certainly more to come. So you're paying for what can (!), has and will be made for free. Why?

 

@Chortles: "The game features assets resembling real-life ones, which can be modded to further portray realism." Why are there so many communities that don't simply rename the rifle names for example. Is there a community that uses just straight up vanilla assets with possibly ONLY the name change (ACRE etc not included, I am talking mainly about visuals)? If there is, why are they so scarce? Again, why buy content that will either not be used or changed anyway so that you could just as well grab it from the Steam Workshop?

 

Since you both, I am sorry to say, failed to answer my question, I'll take a guess. Perhaps it has something to do with quality that is expected from BIS. If so, I don't see a particularly prevailing opinion in the community that the quality is on par with what people expect, visually and technically (see modding for example). Further, people will play on lower texture maps etc. precisely because the vanilla assets are too taxing on performance. There are various reasons why in theory you buy Tanoa and its new assets, but are going to end up playing complete reskins and rehauls of them on a different map. Why?

 

edit: this is severly offtopic, sorry.

[Alwarren 2767]

Since you both, I am sorry to say, failed to answer my question, I'll take a guess. Perhaps it has something to do with quality that is expected from BIS. If so, I don't see a particularly prevailing opinion in the community that the quality is on par with what people expect, visually and technically (see modding for example). Further, people will play on lower texture maps etc. precisely because the vanilla assets are too taxing on performance. There are various reasons why in theory you buy Tanoa and its new assets, but are going to end up playing complete reskins and rehauls of them on a different map. Why?

 

It's kind of funny how you pick on those two and ignore my reply completely. As I said, most of the missions on our play list are vanilla, and that isn't by choice, it is because most missions are done with vanilla content.

 

You can venture a guess as much as you like, but if you start with false preconditions, then the conclusions will inevitably be false.

 

Of course most clans have their predefined set of addons, so does CiA, and most of the missions that our mission makers produce make use of these. However, the vast majority of the missions we pull from the workshop to play are vanilla.

 

I really don't know why you think that most people will not play on Tanoa, seeing how most missions right now are on Altis. I would venture to guess that once APEX is out we will see a large number of missions playing on Tanoa. I am really starting to wonder what the goal/purpose of your question is.

[tilen 1]

I did not pick on those two. I acknowledged that there may be some, albeit very rare, communities that actually do use vanilla assets. But at the same time you admit that CiA: "have their predefined set of addons, so does CiA, and most of the missions that our mission makers produce make use of these." going on to say that you play missions on vanilla. 

 

This confuses me. What do you mean by that? The map, the vehicles, the weapons, soldier uniforms; only some of the mentions and others not? If you use everything vanilla except the ACE 3 and ACRE etc, basically functionality increase addons, then your community is one of the few as I see it. This I have acknowledged and so my question pertaining to the vast majority (conjecture), stands.

 

I have searched for ArmA 3 community videos on YouTube and except for ShackTac most of them use their own assets entirely, including the map itself. All of it from the Steam workshop which means that theoretically Tanoa can be modded in as well. Or am I missing something? 

 

Also, you can stop being so defensive. I like that BIS are making new content and I hope they get compensation that they wish from it. What I don't see is the point in buying such content as it either will be changed (modded) or not used at all/ replaced, or could be modded in in the first place.

[Chairborne 2594]

I acknowledged that there may be some, albeit very rare, communities that actually do use vanilla assets

 

And you came to this conclusion how exactly?

Did you check every single community in arma, or is it just guesswork?

[mistyronin 1181]

What I don't see is the point in buying such content as it either will be changed (modded) or not used at all/ replaced, or could be modded in in the first place.

As we all already told you. Almost everyone uses the vanilla content in one way or another, hence it's a strong point for most people to buy it, some use it as a base for their creations others as their main toys. 

If most missions, SP players, Life & Zombie fans and simulation groups use nowadays Altis, it seems logic that they would use also Tanoa which seems will bring more diversity and features for all kinds of players.

Feel free to check the missions forum, as well as research different simulation groups and see screens or videos of where they play.

That's a good and perfect reason to spend a few bucks. 

[tilen 1]

And you came to this conclusion how exactly?

Did you check every single community in arma, or is it just guesswork?

I did not check every single community, no, nor did I claim to have. I did say that it is conjecture and point out that these are things that I percieve as such.

 

Where and how? I (have) watch(ed) many YouTube videos, Twitch streams. I read both these forums and Steam Discussions on ArmA 3 as well as other places where discussions about the game take place. Generally speaking, as someone above pointed out, ArmA 3 is considered to be a platform for modding which speaks for it self, does it not? I can safely say--withing reason--that it is the general sentiment and a generally accepted view on this game.

 

I have also searched for ArmA 3 communities. I made a post not so long ago and have seen the reactions. All of the communities that responded heavily modded their assets--none of them used plain vanilla game.

 

I have read and watched reviews of this game. I have seen the in-game server browser. I have watched the development of this game and have witnessed the interest for the new DayZ mod.

 

And so on.

[tilen 1]

As we all already told you. Almost everyone uses the vanilla content in one way or another, hence it's a strong point for most people to buy it, some use it as a base for their creations others as their main toys. 

If most missions, SP players, Life & Zombie fans and simulation groups use nowadays Altis, it seems logic that they would use also Tanoa which seems will bring more diversity and features for all kinds of players.

Feel free to check the missions forum, as well as research different simulation groups and see screens or videos of where they play.

That's a good and perfect reason to spend a few bucks. 

Yes and no. Yes, because it supports the company and no, because there already are you-name-it-stan maps in the Steam Workshop. There could very well be a Tanoa if a modder or the community expressed enough intereset. Again, all of that which you are buying can be produce and downloaded free of charge via modding. On top of that, various degrees of that which you are buying will be modded anyway. So then, why?

 

Anyway at this point I am just repeating myself and getting the same answer(s) so I don't see this discussion going further unless someone else provides their insight. Thanks for your replies, guys, but I remain unconvinced.

[mistyronin 1181]

Yes and no. Yes, because it supports the company and no, because there already are you-name-it-stan maps in the Steam Workshop. There could very well be a Tanoa if a modder or the community expressed enough intereset. Again, all of that which you are buying can be produce and downloaded free of charge via modding. On top of that, various degrees of that which you are buying will be modded anyway. So then, why?

I think you don't realize the effort that takes to create a map like Tanoa or Altis? It takes months of a lot of full time dedicated professional 3D artists just to create the buildings and vegetation, not to talk about setting the stuff, working on the roads, etc. 

Most maps in Arma 3 use vanilla buildings from the series, and practically none can reach the standards BI pulled.

So it's almost impossible that a modder or a community could engage an endeavour like Tanoa by themselves. 

[Chairborne 2594]

I did not check every single community, no, nor did I claim to have. I did say that it is conjecture and point out that these are things that I percieve as such.

 

I acknowledged that there may be some, albeit very rare, communities that actually do use vanilla assets.

 

Doesn't really look that way tbqh fam.

 

Answering your questions:

 

why is anyone looking forward to this new content when you know that just about everyone will mod the shit out of the game and you'll never actually get to experience it?

 

 

People move away from vanilla because mods offer a wider selection of content, and you still pay the same price.

There isn't much experiencing to do on a helicopter or a car, after a couple hundred hours using the same stuff over and over you probably know by memory every single rivet in the cockpit.

No one says playing with mods prevents you from ever returning to play with vanilla stuff though, it's just good to have a change of scenery every once in a while.

 

 

 

1.) why purchase content that can be modded in

3.) why purchase content that will rarely, if ever, be used

 

 

1.) Because no matter how much effort you put in it you'll never get the same result as a full studio of paid artists and coders with direct inside knowledge of how arma works. But let's say you can, how long is that going to take? How many modders do you need to make this content done before Arma 3 is history? And who would want to spend countless hours of their own time just to get to the same point of BI, all for free?

The answer is no-one, just like no-one bothered remaking all the assets from Arma 2 entirely.

 

3.) Because you can't cherrypick what part of content you want and what you don't want, just like how people buy games full of guns and vehicles like COD or BF and then stick always to a selected few. Some content just happens to be more enjoyable than other. When you play on Altis are you not using vanilla content? Or using a terrain that has vanilla buildings? And still if you don't like what the expansion has to offer you simply don't buy it, seems pretty straightforward to me.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

@Tilen

To put it simple, Arma 3's Vanilla content is good. Comparing what's to come, to what we have now, it's a bad way to do it. Current Vanilla has been out for a long time now, this everyone either already played it to death, and are looking to mods for a fresh experience. Apex brings a whole new large portion of content that will also soon be played to death, until the next mod made map using Tanoa's core assets like vegetation and new grass, and so on, will end up in a mod.

Now, why pay for Tanoa when it will inevitably be played to death? Quality. Support. Love? Bohemia Onteractive make a damn good game. Despite the fact some things end up being fictional, most of it is existing tech, gear, concepts, are real. Different names due to some legal regards but none the less, it's fine. Mods are all cool, but even though some mods are great quality, they can never actually reach the level of detail Bohemia put into the Vanilla content. Buying Apex means getting that new, "Expanded" content. This could also mean expansion of existing Vanilla content outside of Apex. Don't quote me on that, it's simply a possibility, seeing as one of the rubber ducks received a wheel to set it aside from the military versions. The Expansion was stated from the beginning to "expand" (no surprise there) on the existing platform. This is good because while Arma 3 doesn't have as much variety in assets as Arma 2, that is what the Expansion is expected to resolve, or at least a number of U.S. Hope, in terms of military diversity.

Anyhow, me personally, I'm waiting a bit to see if they drop anymore valuable info on Apex before I commit to pressing that Pre-Order button.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Many maps use vanilla buildings. There should be couple of jungle map makers that will enjoy the stuff that Tanoa brings.

[chortles 263]

@Chortles: "The game features assets resembling real-life ones, which can be modded to further portray realism." Why are there so many communities that don't simply rename the rifle names for example. Is there a community that uses just straight up vanilla assets with possibly ONLY the name change (ACRE etc not included, I am talking mainly about visuals)? If there is, why are they so scarce?

As an example, excess3's IDF "Tankist" totes a vanilla P07 and two magazines to go with his RHS M4A1 and magazines (using MK 318 ammo), "Tankist repair" is that with a vanilla backpack, there's a black reskin of the TRG-20 (without being renamed to Tavor, instead being "TRG2[0/1/1 GL] Black"),some of the rifle/attachment combo classnames use vanilla optics (i.e. one has a MARS while another has the RCO-aka-the-Leupold HAMR), some of the backpacks are renamed vanilla ones with vanilla magazines and even the IDF Grenadier and Rifleman Packs carry vanilla UGL grenades and 5.56 mm magazines respectively, the "SF_AT" uses the PCML and the machine gunners the Zafir w/ IR Laser Pointer without even renaming any of them... and this is despite the mod also using RHS gear.

As for why they're so scarcely used... to reuse my F2000 and Tavor examples, their being "authentic" in terms of "used IRL by the force that I'm playing as" would require playing as one of said real-world users -- mostly South American, Asian, African -- and how often does a group in the Western Hemisphere do that? (I am not familiar with the demographics for the non-English-speaking player base.) Repeat ad nauseam for a bunch of other vanilla assets...

practically none can reach the standards BI pulled.

Ironically one of the bigger problems for Arma 3 modding...

Many maps use vanilla buildings. There should be couple of jungle map makers that will enjoy the stuff that Tanoa brings.

Holy moly THIS!

[tilen 1]

Doesn't really look that way tbqh fam.

 

Answering your questions:

 

"Looking at ArmA 3 communities I have not seen one that uses vanilla assets." Notice how the point of reference is me; my experience. This is from my first post in this thread that began this discussion.

 

"Modding has been the main value for the main consumer base for sure, but I'd be grinning if looking at the numbers I'd see the majority playing Altis Life." From my second post, implying that I do not actually know the numbers.

 

"If you use everything vanilla except the ACE 3 and ACRE etc, basically functionality increase addons, then your community is one of the few as I see it. This I have acknowledged and so my question pertaining to the vast majority (conjecture), stands." Written in the very post you quoted.

 

I think I have made it fairly clear that I am not basing this on any empirical evidence other than my personal experience derived from some sources that could be considered empirical. Adding to that, however, I am certain that this is common and that I am not special in these experiences, given the nature of the game and my sources. Thus my conjecture.

 

As for the rest: quality then. Fair. I already pointed put the fallacy in that, but I digress as proceeding with this discussion, while I do value your input, seems to be fruitless.

[Chairborne 2594]

As for the rest: quality then. Fair. I already pointed put the fallacy in that, but I digress as proceeding with this discussion, while I do value your input, seems to be fruitless.

 

You can always scale down graphics quality as an end-user if your pc can't handle it, but you can't go the other way around, if a model has low details even if you have a 2k dollar pc it still has low details.

I don't see how this is a fallacy. If anything i'd say it's a requirement, there are games that are sold solely because of good graphics.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

As for the rest: quality then. Fair. I already pointed put the fallacy in that, but I digress as proceeding with this discussion, while I do value your input, seems to be fruitless.

... Fallacy... Fruitless... Yet, you seem to ignore the rest. I'll be more blunt, as everyone else already answered your question in detail. Why buy Apex when the content it provides may not be used? You don't have to. There's not need to buy Apex, if you truly feel that way. However, in regards to your experience, many communities use mods because they feel like it. That is all

There's no fallacy in person opinions. If someone prefers using mods over vanilla, that's there thing. Some mods provide content to a new engine that people want to see, on a new engine. The game is built around a sandbox, so people are obviously going to play with sand and create their own castles. Some, like to use Vanilla content too, I myself with my organized squad play both Vanilla and modes content. It's because we simply feel like playing now Arma in all the ways it provides.

Now, if we can please keep this thread on its appropriate tracks.

[Varanon 892]

This thread is called "Development Blogs & Reveals", so I would suggest getting back to discussing that and start a new thread (or now) about the sense of using addons.

[Alwarren 2767]

I did not pick on those two. I acknowledged that there may be some, albeit very rare, communities that actually do use vanilla assets. But at the same time you admit that CiA: "have their predefined set of addons, so does CiA, and most of the missions that our mission makers produce make use of these." going on to say that you play missions on vanilla. [/size]

I only said that our mission makers use these addons, that doesn't mean we use them exclusively. Some of our missions use addons, some are vanilla.

The "albeit very rare" is an assumption of yours that has no backing. Statistics please if you want to uphold this claim, otherwise it is void.

I also said that most of the missions we get from the workshop are vanilla ones, not because we pick those, but because they are so numerous.

 

This confuses me. What do you mean by that? The map, the vehicles, the weapons, soldier uniforms; only some of the mentions and others not? If you use everything vanilla except the ACE 3 and ACRE etc, basically functionality increase addons, then your community is one of the few as I see it. This I have acknowledged and so my question pertaining to the vast majority (conjecture), stands.[/size]

Please stop hurling these "one of the few" around, you have nothing to back this up.

What I mean is that using addons does not preclude you from using vanilla content. You can make RHS missions on Altis. You can use NATO faction on Chernarus. Why do you equate "using some addons" with "not using vanilla content"? I really don't get your reasoning.

 

I have searched for ArmA 3 community videos on YouTube and except for ShackTac most of them use their own assets entirely, including the map itself. All of it from the Steam workshop which means that theoretically Tanoa can be modded in as well. Or am I missing something?

Again, numbers! Just saying it doesn't make it right. What are your actual numbers? I can easily pull up a large number of Arma 3 videos on Altis. That doesn't prove anything.

 

Also, you can stop being so defensive. I like that BIS are making new content and I hope they get compensation that they wish from it. What I don't see is the point in buying such content as it either will be changed (modded) or not used at all/ replaced, or could be modded in in the first place.

I am not defensive at all, I have been called a hater here more than once. I speak my mind, if that means criticising BIS for something they do, then it is that - I have been more than a bit critical about the stamina changes recently. I have also said repeatedly that I am not happy with the 2035 scenario, that I find it lacking in background which makes it hard for me to relate to it and connect the dots from there to here.

But I really have no idea why you are even asking these question. You obviously don't want to buy the Expansion, which is fine, but why do you need to rationalize this?

Anyway, I'll stop here.

[zukov 490]

surely today we will see a fantastic sitrep about Tanoa :lol:

[mistyronin 1181]

surely today we will see a fantastic sitrep about Tanoa :lol:

Unfortunately I don't think that's probable. They will most probably focus on the Eden imminent release.