Extended breaching Capabilities

[Blackfox34 14]

CQB is a large part of combat today, especially when it comes to clearing buildings and close areas. Usually, you have to get in the building first.

Currently ARMA 2 allows for a limited amount of entry method and the door is always defaulted to open. It would be nice to see the new physics engine incorporate door locks and destructible doors. Therefore, shotguns could have added value.

Along this lines comes windows and such too. It would be nice if you could blow out windows and be able to vault through when destroyed, possibly the V key could do this.

This destruction not only serves a purpose but also looks better than shooting through a window or door that never is destroyed!

What do you guys think?

I think it's a minor, but important feature.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

CQB is not refined enough in ArmA and honestly not terribly necessary considering all buildings are destructible...

[Blackfox34 14]

Yeah, but blowing half the building up to get in does not make for could HVT/Hostage scenarious :-P

[BobcatBob 10]

I think if they model the buildings so that the doors can be destroyed more easily then say the rest of the building (assuming a door is its own object and not "one" with the building) it would be good enough. Modders could add the ability to kick in locked doors or to make doors that have more detailed damage models to better demonstrate the effects of a breaching shotgun (not just have the door disintigrate) then all will be good in this respect. I think Smookie and Reezo would make another animations add on to allow back to wall/throw in grenade type stuff in A3 (also breaching commands for AI like R6V2 would be boss)

[rye1 21]

That would be excellent. If you can blow the building in half, then why not the door? :p Mechanical, explosive, dynamic, that stuff gets all technical:- it can just be simple, ballistic breach with a shotgun or even a 5.56 weapon. The modders could improve upon anything BIS gives them.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Making doors destructible should already be possible in ArmA 2. You'd have to take that up with the BI artists though.

We still don't know whether the destruction/damage model will be improved in ArmA 3 though, and if it is it might offer better solutions.

On a seperate note, I hope BIS finally fully implements animations for opening doors (they were present in the ArmA 2 data, but not used).

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Door can be a small frame door or a huge gate. I do smell problems.

[Montanaro 0]

Meh, I don't think of ARMA as a CQC type of game.

There really aren't many around either (RS Vegas 2 is the most recent I believe)

CQC is obviously a very common theme in warfare within the last 100 years so yes it deserves a spot in the game and I think ARMA's mission editor is quite capable of emulating a complete hostage rescue (no more starting at the front door, and mission ending when you walk out door).

[rye1 21]

Meh, I don't think of ARMA as a CQC type of game.

Well, it could be if worked on. Then it would be the best of both worlds. For that, it comes down to AI more than anything else but they made all buildings enterable in A2 and are now improving the animation state. It sounds to me like it's getting a bit more friendly in that aspect. And it doesn't have to be over the top, just put a few rounds in the lock you can get in.

Door can be a small frame door or a huge gate. I do smell problems.

I know nothing of how to put it in game but couldn't you just differentiate it? E.g. by object names, Door1 = the door you can breach. Door 2 = big metal gate, unbreachable. Door 3 = metal and cannot be kicked in but may be breachable. I mean if it's a simple wooden door with a few hinges like seen in A2 then it's not going to be that hard to breach.

And a gate you'd just run down with the vehicle.

It would be nice if you could blow out windows and be able to vault through when destroyed, possibly the V key could do this.

That's a brilliant idea, that opens up CQB gameplay and PVP elements with something so simple, but the same could be said about jumping over short walls and such objects.

[dmarkwick 261]

Along this lines comes windows and such too. It would be nice if you could blow out windows and be able to vault through when destroyed, possibly the V key could do this.

I think the V key could be used for a lot more stuff, context-sensitively. As well as vaulting over short obstacles, it could be used to scramble over walls. Or to push through vegetation. Or to push through crowds. Or to climb through windows etc just as you say. Or to generally climb onto stuff that ought to be climbable by equipped soldiers i.e. nothing too high. But things like tank hulls to give an elevated view maybe.

[Tom1 10]

very good ideas arma 3 needs CQB it would be a great addition to an already awesome game.

[ghostnineone 10]

cqb should play a bigger part in arma, especially since they are making an effort to make buildings enterable and not just big ass cover, trying to do cqb in arma is painful (i shouldnt have to crouch to go through a door that has more than enough room for me to walk through it), cqb is a huge part of battles today, its exactly why most countries field carbines and not full length rifles, and why bullet proof vests are designed to take multiple rounds from point blank, in my opinion cqb is much more dangerous than fighting in the open, there may be more cover and longer distances and more room to maneuver , but that works both ways (usually), if you are fighting in a house you have little room to maneuver, less cover (that can usually be shot through), limited tactical options (you dont get cas while inside a building) and if you are in a building and the people there know you are in it then every single part of that building becomes a potential ambush point and every room is now a death trap, because the people on the other side of the door are going to be expecting you (most of the swat fatalities happen when going through the door) and a flashbang isnt going to stop them from spraying wildly (not to mention proper procedure requires the team to open the door and the guy with the flashbang has to peer into the room and throw the grenade away from people and in an open spot away from anything flammable, and that takes time (more than you think when the people are going to watch you do all this and will probably be trying to kill you), you dont just chuck it in and go, and breaching with a shotgun is even worse because its a 3 shot process (one in each hinge and one in the lock and then the door kick), and that takes at least 5 seconds if not more, plus the time for the grenade toss if there is one, reaction time and precise shooting is the name of the game, (most outdoor firefights is the entire squad trying to suppress or kill the enemy and basing everything off the saw gunners base of fire), in cqb you dont have volume of fire, you have to be precise, and fast, you cant always flank, or get the high ground.

im not saying arma needs to be only cqb from now on but i think that leaving out an important aspect of warfare, especially when there are buildings that you can enter that im assuming are for more than just being another place to shoot/be shot at from, and when the map looks like it is filled with tight streets and pretty big towns as well as open terrain and mountains/hills/forests etc

[rye1 21]

Some things I've noticed:- When you stack you're not that close to each other, it seems like you're too far away because of collisions, it seems you can't get right up the persons arse, you're always a quarter or half a meter off it which equates to death by the time you get in the room. Whenever the point man starts to walk, you press down W to walk and it seems you're too far behind because it doesn't kick in straight away, so to get right behind him into the room we've found it's best for you to hold down W then the point man does so, so you're right up his backside when he moves. And close quarter battle shooting to me seems very hard, when I want to place my weapon on target, I throw it over to the target and it is normally too far left or right of the target because it either moves too slow or too fast. It's fine with longer range and worse with shorter for me which to me is a bit crazy and lopsided. I dunno if this helps but those are some problems I come up with whenever we do some CQB training and missions. Nevermind the geometry issues with flashbangs flashing people through walls, only one unit getting flashed at a time and things, grenades need heavily improved, no more throwing a grenade and it landing on the top floor and falling to the first. The main problems with Arma for CQB are: movement (too slow or not agile enough), grenades (going through objects and roofs, not having complete control over them like as seen in AA2/AA3 - America's Army), AI (going prone and staying there, play SWAT 4 and have a way better time playing CQB on an old, shitty game than Arma - it's unfortunately true).

A 3 shot process as you put is to completely take off the door, you don't have to go for the hinges if you can just blast the lock and burst in. This would normally be done for padlocks too.

[walker 0]

Hi all

It would be nice to have multi stage wall destruction for breaching and loop-holing.

3 to 5 stages are probably enough.

Sugested Stages

1. For loop-holing at any one of 3 stance levels and as a result of heavy gun fire.
   
2. For step over breaching and alternate entry/exit points; internal walls as well please!
   
3. For partially demolished buildings that provide cluttered cover, already there in some cases.
   
4. For Rubble and increased clutter again already there in some cases
   
5. Complete removal to foundations building blown to dust already there in most cases.
   

Kind Regards walker

[metalcraze 290]

7.62 should also start to penetrate (multiple) brick walls finally. Let alone .50

[Blackfox34 14]

Yeah,

Most of the problems allow for this since there is no back to wall feature without using the SMK animation pack, which allows for grenade lobbing around corners properly.

However, most people aren't experienced with this pack (ME) and it becomes a fondling with buttons, which is perhaps the worst thing you should be trying to do when trying to clear a building.

Also goes with flashbangs too since they are so sketchy in this game.

While it's certainly hard to get the AI to naturally fortify themselves in buildings, it's quite easy to place them inside and direct their behaviour, making for relatively good CQB, which is a large part of some unit's missions, so it would be nice to have some tweaks.

Movement is a biggie though. If your communication is the slightest off, the first guy in is often far in front of the rest of the crew since they are all basically reacting off his character going in, instead of his command. Also shoulder taps using ACE aren't easily to use because you have to interact then shoulder tap, so its not the fastest thing. (this is also the case in breaking contact from the enemy.)

[metalcraze 290]

SMK pack is not realistic. It's intended for ArmA to be played more like a mix of CoD and Gears of War with a clear emphasis on 3rd person view.

You don't move "back to wall" the way SMK depicts it in CQB because that will get you killed very quickly as you simply won't have the time to bring your weapon to bear if the enemy will jump you from the doorway in that wall. You move with your weapon in front of you down the corridor.

As for grenade throwing in different ways - yes that should be in vanilla game (I currently use ACE for that).

Edited July 20, 2011 by metalcraze

[Blackfox34 14]

I meant before entry and when throwing a flashbang in the room.

Thats perhaps its greatest feature tactically.

[rye1 21]

That's what I love about America's Army, throwing seems so natural and well balanced. It's not 100% predictable but the longer you hold down the mouse you kind of get how far you're chucking it. You could just lean and pop one in or deflect it off an object, in reality you're supposed to 'place' the grenade exactly where you want it from your assessment of the room as you pop it in because of furniture and all kinds of stuff that could neglect the effects or set-fire as ghostnineone mentioned. Especially when using 6-9 bang's, and mixed ones with CS gas too, it's a fire starter.

[Alex72 1]

I think the V key could be used for a lot more stuff, context-sensitively. As well as vaulting over short obstacles, it could be used to scramble over walls. Or to push through vegetation. Or to push through crowds. Or to climb through windows etc just as you say. Or to generally climb onto stuff that ought to be climbable by equipped soldiers i.e. nothing too high. But things like tank hulls to give an elevated view maybe.

This sounds very good. Extend the "V" key to some more animations for realistic movement scenarios like getting into a window (ie. getting over slightly higher obstacles), vaulting over a fence (like now) through context-sensitivity. Doesnt have to be over the top with tons of animations for tons of situations, but a few more.

[metalcraze 290]

I meant before entry and when throwing a flashbang in the room.

Thats perhaps its greatest feature tactically.

Yeah several ways (not only 'hand animations') of throwing a grenade is what ArmA really needs.

I actually agreed with you on that :)

This sounds very good. Extend the "V" key to some more animations for realistic movement scenarios like getting into a window (ie. getting over slightly higher obstacles), vaulting over a fence (like now) through context-sensitivity. Doesnt have to be over the top with tons of animations for tons of situations, but a few more.

And to avoid possible quirks with you stepping over instead of getting through the window Ctrl + V combination may be used (of course only near windows)

Edited July 20, 2011 by metalcraze

[dmarkwick 261]

Doesnt have to be over the top

You win a pun cookie :)

[Steakslim 1]

And this complimentary movie.

[ghostnineone 10]

This sounds very good. Extend the "V" key to some more animations for realistic movement scenarios like getting into a window (ie. getting over slightly higher obstacles), vaulting over a fence (like now) through context-sensitivity. Doesnt have to be over the top with tons of animations for tons of situations, but a few more.

i think they should either do it based on height, where if something is X high then you vault over, and if its Y high then you climb, i think just using the V key by itself is better, but if you can map the second button like ctrl or turbo to a mouse thumb button then it would be a little easier to use, even though i dont have one, i have SMKs button mapped to the MMB (i dont wanna hold ctrl + v + w if im hauling as towards a wall to climb over it because thats really awkward), or they could do it similar to brinks system where it goes by momentum and where you are looking (if you sprint at a railing youll jump over it but if you are moving normally youll just step over it)

[rye1 21]

Maybe one that a buddy helps you over?