Real reasons for war in Lybia

[spooky lynx 73]

Of course, Soviet Union was a paradise for human rights, Saddam Hussein was a democrat, Milosevic a kind of modern Gandhi, Osama Bin Laden and Ghaddafi are peaceful disciples fo the dalaï-lama.

Oh, i forgot Poutine and Kadyrov who are well-known defendors of the free press.

Nonody is saint, but it's only my business, how to judge human right in Soviet union, because I lived there. And arabs and serbs must judge Hussain and Miloshevich but not some guys in US or EU. Oh, and only me should decide how to judge Putin or Ramzan firstly, because personally me live not far from Chechnya. And Putin is my prime minister, but not french. Believe me, I know better who is Putin and Ramzan, and how do they behave than any EU citizen.

P.S. I don't believe in free press.;) Press can't be free, the difference is only between its bosses (do they belong to the authorities or some private business structures).

[-martin- 10]

Of course, Soviet Union was a paradise for human rights, Saddam Hussein was a democrat, Milosevic a kind of modern Gandhi, Osama Bin Laden and Ghaddafi are peaceful disciples fo the dalaï-lama.

Oh, i forgot Poutine and Kadyrov who are well-known defendors of the free press.

You guys keep saying that there were bad human rights in the Soviet Union, but you never give any examples, tell me how they were bad so we can compare to the West :)

[celery 8]

You guys keep saying that there were bad human rights in the Soviet Union, but you never give any examples, tell me how they were bad so we can compare to the West :)

Happy reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union

Edited June 10, 2011 by Celery

[ProfTournesol 956]

Guys you won't drag me offtopic, but just this.

[spooky lynx 73]

Oh, Solzhenitsyn... I've read this... About 20-30% of all he wrote is truth. Other... Well, you understood:)

Happy reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_r...e_Soviet_Union

Happy living. Me and my family may say some other than authors of this article.

BTW, any other examples?

And, again, human rights, press and any other aspects should not be touched by some US or EU politicians and military. It is russian's/serbs/arabs business but not yours.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Spooky Lynx

[-Snafu- 77]

I've all but given up posting in these threads because critical thinking of any kind is completely foreign to the intellectual featherweight zones that quickly appear.

Oh snap.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Snafu

[gammadust 12]

Libyan rebel group sells first oil to U.S

Tesoro, a U.S. oil refiner, entered into a deal May 25 with the Transitional National Council based in Benghazi, Libya for 1.2 million barrels of Libyan crude oil, the State Department said in a written statement.

[spooky lynx 73]

They started even quicker than I supposed... Quaddafi is alive and he's in Libya, but those guys are already selling his oil. Bravo!

[ProfTournesol 956]

They were looking for a Luxemburger oil refiner, but they didn't find any.

[spooky lynx 73]

Luxemburger, US... What's the difference? The main thing is that armed rebels that try to overthrow the government recieve wide help from another countries.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Luxemburger, US... What's the difference? The main thing is that armed rebels that try to overthrow the government recieve wide help from another countries.

That's true. The goal is to overthrow Ghaddafi, so financing the rebellion against oil sounds logical. It isn't "Wow see, they start to loot Lybian oil reserves, those oil suckers".

[spooky lynx 73]

That's true. The goal is to overthrow Ghaddafi, so financing the rebellion against oil sounds logical. It isn't "Wow see, they start to loot Lybian oil reserves, those oil suckers".

They start to loot it via those rebels. And the part of the help is that the companies trade with the rebels.

[vilas 474]

this "oil" example is clearly showing "real reason"

eh

and talking about free press and learning people "no, you wrong, your life was different than you know, read our sources , you are wrong" is "funny"

learning Poles, Czechs, Russian "you lived other way, cause CIA written so" is bs (or maybe we are on dope and we have no idea how it looks, so we need Reagan era reports to be sure like we and our parents lived , worked and eventually were prisoned ? hahah

i remember when i heard one 17 y.o. boy saying "i heard that everyone carried toothbrush with him cause could be arrested anytime" - bs , bs and once again bs , i had family in Solidarity, noone was going on 1-st May parade, noone were ever caught , noone carried toothbrush and such like , in 21 Demands in 1981 they demanded more free time and less work - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_demands_of_MKS my uncle was working in the same ship-factory as Walesa but he was welder , not electrician in 1980 , now ask workers who worked here about... unemployment and liquidation of "not effective" ship-factory )

regarding free press:

OWNER of company decide what to publish and what not

example:

try to write article about frauds of any member of Busines Center Club in Poland... who is going to publish it ? NOONE (i tried some years ago, i had some proofs about one person criminal activity, guy is owner of company , there was no journalist who would like to speak about frauds of member of BCC , i had evidence of guy's 3 times fault statement in court and burglary and maybe signature falsification, but when journalist hear "businessman" he avoid to speak more, cause his boss will fire him from job)

and you call it "now you have free press" heh

selling oil (raw material of country) by not government during war... nice

Edited June 12, 2011 by vilas

[-martin- 10]

Just gonna go off topic to reply to this:

Happy reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_r...e_Soviet_Union

This doesn't mean much, besides 50% of it is not accurate. Besides I know that some people were sent to the Gulag unfairly but the rest of the people who were sent there, such as factory owners and all that rich scum (that tortured and ripped off people who worked their whole lives for nothing and then ended up sleeping on the street) I have no feelings for them, making them work is adequate punishment for their wrong doings, if they had no feeling why should we? Let them have a taste of their own poison.

As for human rights:

I have to agree that some human rights were violated such as freedom of travel and I'm not going to stand up for these violations in any way, but you also have to agree that some human rights were much better than in capitalist nations.

What pisses me off about Westerners is that they keep on trying to show how perfect they are by saying today we have this and this la la la... (Why are you trying to be perfect, acknowledge your mistakes now and in history) maybe you really have some better rights today but then again Socialism might have had some better if it today too. But let’s take a little look at human rights in the history:

Voting: Women, black men, native Americans and even the poor weren’t allowed to vote in the US and UK or had restrictions... One of the first things that Lenin’s revolution in 1917 did was to remove such restrictions on voting allowing anyone of any gender to vote.

Gulag: What about capitalist sweatshops where young children were forced to work in inhumane conditions for unbearable hours with harsh treatment? What about Guantanamo bay where inmates were tortured and held for years without a trial? What about the Gaza strip?

Racism: What about slavery and racial segregation which was abolished only in the mid 1960's...

This comparison can go on forever, what I'm trying to say is that Westerners have no right to criticize any human rights when they themselves have severely violated them over them years themselves, stop being arrogant and trying to show yourselves as the saviours of the world, your history is just as dark as anyone else’s.

If you wanna talk about this more, join us in this thread so we don't keep dragging this off topic.

[celery 8]

This comparison can go on forever, what I'm trying to say is that Westerners have no right to criticize any human rights when they themselves have severely violated them over them years themselves, stop being arrogant and trying to show yourselves as the saviours of the world, your history is just as dark as anyone else’s.

That's like the oldest fallacy in the book when defending regimes. Pointing out human rights violations in the west that are a fraction in number and magnitude of the Soviet Union's in defense of the latter is desperate and laughable.

"Before you go pointing fingers at me for murder, just remember that everyone's flipped the bird at someone at some point in their life!" :mad:

Edited June 12, 2011 by Celery

[-martin- 10]

That's like the oldest fallacy in the book when defending regimes. Pointing out human rights violations in the west that are a fraction in number and magnitude of the Soviet Union's in defense of the latter is desperate and laughable.

"Before you go pointing fingers at me for murder, just remember that everyone's flipped the bird at someone at some point in their life!" :mad:

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone and I'm not defending regimes, in fact it’s the same thing that I'm trying to tell you, why are you pointing fingers at the imperfections of the Soviet Union when you your selves have had and still have imperfections in your system... Stop trying to be perfect when you know that you’re not, I openly admit that the Soviet Union had large violations of human rights, but I never saw anyone of you admit this about the West, instead all you do is judge.

I don’t have anything to the West, I don’t hate the West and I don’t want to conquer the West as most of you probably think, all I want is for Westerners to lose their arrogance, that’s how simple it gets.

Pointing out human rights violations in the west that are a fraction in number and magnitude of the Soviet Union's

You call kidnapping people, transporting them thousands of miles, enslaving them literally with chains, selling them and abusing them or forcing 12 year old kid to work in sub human conditions "a fractions of the of the Soviet Union’s"?... And you called me desperate. :smile:

[NoRailgunner 0]

Does anyone in Libya had a right to a fair public trial or to change their government? Isn't the freedom of speech, press, religions etc restricted?

What about ethnic and tribal discriminations in Libya?

What about the governments reaction on demonstrations in February 2011?

Responding with military force, censorship, blocking communication...

Did Muammar al-Gaddafi read only some books about Stalin and Mao?

[spooky lynx 73]

And why must europeans take part in Libya's interior messes? Arabs know better how should they live. BTW, why doesn't anyone blame Saudis or Bahrain? They act almost the same as Quaddafi, but all free press keeps silence... And noone tries to establish no-fly zone, noone tries to bomb bahraini army... Noone shouts that saudi soldiers that came to help with opposition rape houndreds of bahrainis...

[vilas 474]

Noone shouts that saudi soldiers that came to help with opposition rape houndreds of bahrainis...

as i said year ago on F-Ru

difference between "democracy" and "terror" is often: "one use AK, other Colt, one drive UAZ, other HMMV" but effect is always the same - dead people , crying mothers

for one man "democracy" is "i can choose McDonald or Burger King or KFC" , for me it is "equal chance in life"

and what kind of freedom of speech we talk if press is owned by few big companies who have 20 titles in different countries and all have "one line" ?

will they WRITE and PUBLISH anything which is against big business , NWO, WMF or ... someone who owns banks ?

Edited June 12, 2011 by vilas

[celery 8]

And why must Russians take part in Georgia's interior messes? Georgians know better how should they live. BTW, why doesn't anyone blame Belarus or Moldova?

Fix'd.

[gammadust 12]

Fix'd.

Get your story straight:

Georgia fired first shot, say UK monitors

HOW FIGHTING BROKE OUT

August 7, 3pm: OSCE monitors see build-up of Georgian artillery on roads to South Ossetia.

6.10pm: Russian peacekeepers inform OSCE of suspected Georgian artillery fire on Khetagurovo, a South Ossetian village.

7pm: Georgia declares a unilateral ceasefire.

11pm: Georgia announces that its villages are being shelled and launches attack in South Ossetia.

11.30pm: Georgian forces bombard Tskhinvali.

11.45pm: OSCE monitors report shells falling on Tskhinvali every 15-20 seconds.

August 8, 12.15am: Commander of Russian peacekeepers reports that his unit has taken casualties. Russia later announces that it has invaded Georgia to protect civilians and Russian peacekeepers.

further:

Grist, who resigned from the OSCE shortly afterwards, has told The New York Times it was Georgia that launched the first military strikes against Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital. [curiously this is the part of South Ossetia which is culturaly Georgian, failed False Flag, no?]

“It was clear to me that the [Georgian] attack was completely indiscriminate and disproportionate to any, if indeed there had been any, provocation,†he said. “The attack was clearly, in my mind, an indiscriminate attack on the town, as a town.â€

On Libya:

10 June 2011 - Libya's opposition to get more than $US1bn

The BBC reports Italy is sending $US586 million, France $US420m, and Kuwait $US180m. Turkey is setting up a $US100m fund.

Much of the funding is coming from the unlocking of Libya assets overseas, which were frozen as part of the fight against Colonel Gaddafi.

---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:50 PM ----------

June 12, 2011 Breaking News:

The NATO war against Libya is not a humanitarian endeavour. It is a blatant war of aggression and a violation of international law.

War crimes are being committed by NATO.

Hospitals and universities have been bombed. Civilian infrastructure has been brutally destroyed.

Recently Tripoli's Nasser University was bombed. University staff were injured and killed. There is no justification for this.

What NATO is doing is taking advantage of internal divisions to destroy Libya as a country.

The unspoken objective is to destroy Libya's economy and prevent it from developing as a nation-state. This is why schools and universities, hospitals, shipyards, factories, not to mention residential areas, have been the target of NATO bombings.

Readers are informed in advance that the photographic evidence that follows is disturbing.

These photographs were taken by Mohammed Al-Alam, a student at Nasser University. The photographs were directly forwarded to me.

Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya, Global Research, June 12, 2011

I would be violating rule #6 of this forum (no post of explicit links or images), you have to rely on yourself to figure the source out.

Edited June 12, 2011 by gammadust

[NoRailgunner 0]

And using brutal force eg shooting on protesting people, suppress and break down opposition, shelling cities is called what?

Should the rest of the world put a blind eye on crimes, violation and atrocity because its easier and more convient to say: "Its their pain not mine - nothing personal, though. Thank you for watching it on TV/internet." ?

How do you stop hardliners in powerful positions who aren't ready (or too old) for a change or new ways to run a country?

[demonized 20]

where goes the line, what is global terrorism, is all out war "better/nicer" than terrorism?

when will we be able to put our leaders to trial for comitting these war crimes?

total destruction of a country, that is terrorism or worse in my eyes.

there have been many opportunitys to achieve a political solution throughout this conflict.

when will we be brave enough to put Obama, the french and british prime minister, the leaders of my and several of your countrys that participate in this conflict to trial for their war crimes?

warning thinking out of the box:

if my neighbours daughter is beaten, raped, surpressed on a daily basis, and her brother asks me for help.

will i not be imprisoned if i lob a handgrenade in the living room of the house aiming for the man that beats her, burning down the house to make sure he cannot put up a fight, and sit on my porch with my rifle, shooting him in the legs whenever he tries to move. (no walk zone), also shooting any of his cousins that attempt to leave or enter the burning ruins to help the wounded man wich is under fire.(by me)

I bet you guys 1 dollar that i would never leave my porch alive, only in a black bag, not even a attempt of trial.

i would be sniped from across the street by swat.

and in the very rare off chance i leave the porch alive(wounded) i would be imprisoned for life with no chance whatsoever of parole, labeled a monster in any case.

does it make a difference if the man had 3 daughters? or 10?

Is my stupidity not punishable?

ME - "sorry judge, i forgot, i could call 911 and report the abuse."

JUDGE - "ok my son, honest mistake, youre free to go, youre our hero"

[-martin- 10]

when will we be brave enough to put Obama, the french and british prime minister, the leaders of my and several of your countrys that participate in this conflict to trial for their war crimes?

When we finally stop going to protests armed with balloons full of paint with scarves around our faces to make sure we don't get seen by CCTV as we spray anarchist symbols on the wall while police in riot gear break our skulls with bats, trample us with horses and then wash us down with high pressure water cannons mounted on armoured vehicles while shooting us with rubber bullets just to make sure we have a few blue and purple souvenirs on our bodies from them when we get back homes, submit to our masters and everything clams down again.

Its time people finally stop being scared and pull out the real weapons, there is just so much that we can do with homemade items to pose a real threat to the police, but I'm not going to go in to more detail because I'm not sure if I would be violating the forum rules by discussing that.

But I bet, that if we did make homemade munitions and put up a real threat to the police to the point where they can't hold us back anymore the governments would react exactly like Gadaffi and Syria did, by sending in the army, after all who is there to stop them? The only people that would be able to help us are the soldiers themselves standing up for us and refusing to take orders, but this is very improbable because the army is well paid to make sure that they always follow orders and there would be a lot of chaos if there was nobody to command the army.

This is what happened in Tsarist Russia during the Bolshevik revolutions, the masters are still the same now so why should they react differently?

warning thinking out of the box:

Spoiler:

+1

Edited June 12, 2011 by -Martin-

[Scrub 0]

Meh, part of Obamas participation in Libya is that he could say he 'fought a war' and not look like a sissy. Poor reason to fight. And also very hypocritical of his former stance on these issues.

Anybody know if it's true al-Qaida is involved with the rebellion? Keep hearing rumors and wonder if it is only for anecdotal justification.