They better have female soldiers...

[PN11A 2]

New body requires replacing every piece of clothing, vests, and everything. Again, just seems like a waste. This is a combat infantry sim.

Women are not in combat infantry.

I would rather have a new helicopter or more weapons, etc.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

actually the clothing is not different from the body, You have the naked body, the combat clothing body and etc. The heads stay the same when you select uniform your selecting which body you want. Body armor would need to be scaled differently. Its not that hard but it would take one person a while to do by themselves. model, texture, rig, animate create config. all from scratch, unless there is a skeleton you can scale. Im actually thinking about doing this now.

[Dark6-6 10]

actually the clothing is not different from the body, You have the naked body, the combat clothing body and etc. The heads stay the same when you select uniform your selecting which body you want. Body armor would need to be scaled differently. Its not that hard but it would take one person a while to do by themselves. model, texture, rig, animate create config. all from scratch, unless there is a skeleton you can scale. Im actually thinking about doing this now.

Seems like a big project. Good luck.

[Sneakson 1]

Implementing women wouldn't be difficult and since there's more than one guy working on this game it wouldn't necessarily take effort away from anything else contrary to some idiot’s beliefs.

Model the damn body and slightly reshape all the clothing and make slightly different animations. There are already at least 4 male voice actors, getting one woman on the team wouldn't be a problem.

Quite a lot of games have women in them and they're no harder to make than the shitload of men they're cramming in the game.

Compared to making AI work, helicopters fly or programming a 12k view distance that doesn’t melt your computer instantly it’s nothing.

[Brain 12]

Not sure if posted, I'll just leave it here and disappear again, since this discussion is... meh.

http://i.imagebanana.com/img/9gcw7w03/Someadviceonwomenincombatfromafemale.jpg

[dm 9]

Implementing women wouldn't be difficult and since there's more than one guy working on this game it wouldn't necessarily take effort away from anything else contrary to some idiot’s beliefs.

Model the damn body and slightly reshape all the clothing and make slightly different animations. There are already at least 4 male voice actors, getting one woman on the team wouldn't be a problem.

Quite a lot of games have women in them and they're no harder to make than the shitload of men they're cramming in the game.

Compared to making AI work, helicopters fly or programming a 12k view distance that doesn’t melt your computer instantly it’s nothing.

This reply, brought to you by a vastly knowledgeable source on how the engine works.

Protip: as someone who knows what the eff they're talking about, I can say that: without a doubt, adding a new skeleton, new animations, new handling of crew, weapon and IK anims is not trivial.

A wise person would not expect there to be proper females ingame at release.

[Sealife 22]

Turn the pitch up and play in first person and your a woman

If your worried you wont see another woman , there are none because its a rare thing on the front line .

If your extremely insistant on the female form being a necesity then I think your olaying game wrong or imagination is lacking

[benjamin1 10]

In my opinion the only logical way of adding women to A3 for filling a combat role would be within some civilian based resistant group, that don't follow an official military protocol.

Besides that, i agree on the arguments above that it would be technically a pain to implement, and for what purpose ? i don't see it really contributing anything

Besides, i want to die a man, not a woman :D

Edited June 22, 2013 by Benjamin1

[PN11A 2]

In my opinion the only logical way of adding women to A3 for filling a combat role would be within some civilian based resistant group, that don't follow an official military protocol.

Besides that, i agree on the arguments above that it would be technically a pain to implement, and for what purpose ? i don't see it really contributing anything

Besides, i want to die a man, not a woman :D

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6019/5914946669_1ba7b8a109.jpg

Dont make stupid statements. Just because you dont see the benefit, does not mean there is not a benefit. Especially since you are not educated enough to know the reasoning. If it fits into their story so be it, if it does not fit then in typical arma fashion it will be up to the community to do so. To the poster will the brilliant plan to "all you have to do is reshape clothing and model the body. You have never worked with a 3d program, and further we dont have access to the original models. The clothing and body are 1 item. when you swap uniforms you swap bodies.

[Sneakson 1]

So what source do you tens of guys saying there are no women in any army anywhere in the world ever have anyways?

I did one quick Google... CNN says this:

14.2% of the United States Army are women.

Am I reading that wrong?

16.6% in the officer corps and same throughout higher ranks and nearly 20% in both the reservists and National Guard.

They make up 30% of the enlisted medical specialists.

Only 3% have front-line duties but even so I should have encountered a couple hundred of women assuming the ARMA armies have the same composition.

And this number could increase over the next 20 years.

Is the myth still plausible?

Not to mention that all of that shouldn’t even matter. We’re not soldiers, we’re gamers. I wouldn't assume 50% of ARMA-players are women but a nice percentage that only will grow in time and 50% of humanity are women.

We’ve gotten ten different choppers but no women.

ARMA will inevitably have women. Mods will be made and people will want women, inevitably. I think it would be a lot better if ARMAs experienced team made the effort to do it right instead of having people have to download mods to play as women in the next, mainstream-hitting (mainstream = gender equality) Day-Z-like…

And why not?

No women in the army isn’t an argument. All women are too weak isn’t an argument. It doesn’t matter isn’t an argument or this thread wouldn’t be over a hundred fucking pages.

The only argument is that it would take some work but at this point anything and everything takes some work.

BIS are game devs. They can do it. And it wouldn’t necessarily take every daylight minute of every employee until release to implement it.

We’re requesting all sorts of details aren’t we?

Damn.

[scrim 1]

So what source do you tens of guys saying there are no women in any army anywhere in the world ever have anyways?

None, because none of us have said that. When you have to out right lie to make your point, you should know that you have lost the argument if you have any self respect.

[Sneakson 1]

None, because none of us have said that. When you have to out right lie to make your point, you should know that you have lost the argument if you have any self respect.

Hah?

Not only was I obviously not being literal and you are obviously trying to cut off an argument you can't win but I'm also sure it's been said and is clearly what you guys are implying if you don't wish to see a single fighting woman in the game.

A few pages back someone said we wouldn't think even 1% would be eligible to serve and that we would see 1% at the frontlines when we do in fact already have 3%.

Obviously there's a lot of bubbling stupidity and ignorance amongst the people arguing against it.

And as PN11A mentions we haven't access to the original models which strengthens my argument that BIS could do this better than a modder could.

we dont have access to the original models.

BIS does. This thread is about BIS making some women, not us.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Sneakson

[nodunit 397]

new skeleton, new animations, new handling of crew, weapon and IK anims is not trivial.

I wonder if SchnapsdroSel had to go through all of that.

You may be adding more work than necessary.

[Dark6-6 10]

Hah?

Not only was I obviously not being literal and you are obviously trying to cut off an argument you can't win but I'm also sure it's been said and is clearly what you guys are implying if you don't wish to see a single fighting woman in the game.

A few pages back someone said we wouldn't think even 1% would be eligible to serve and that we would see 1% at the frontlines when we do in fact already have 3%.

Obviously there's a lot of bubbling stupidity and ignorance amongst the people arguing against it.

And as PN11A mentions we haven't access to the original models which strengthens my argument that BIS could do this better than a modder could.

BIS does. This thread is about BIS making some women, not us.

Make them run slower and carry less to offset the smaller hitbox and ill be all for it.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

[Dark6-6 10]

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6019/5914946669_1ba7b8a109.jpg

Cute stick.

http://images.military.com/media/news/service/navy-seals-with-log-ts300.jpg

Edited June 23, 2013 by Dark6-6

[nodunit 397]

We get it.

Cute post edit, rather than keep the one wherein two teams of five or seix soldiers were lifting a log over their head with ease of teamwork, one of them being a woman to an image of all men struggling.

Edited June 23, 2013 by NodUnit

[PN11A 2]

Cute stick.

http://images.military.com/media/news/service/navy-seals-with-log-ts300.jpg

This post shows 2 things, your ignorant, and you have never done anything physical in your life. Those woman are participating in a selection course for special operations. They had to create a device to carry the 3 ammo cans you seem to not see over 5 miles. No im not the guy saying woman are equal, im saying they have a place in this game. The question I have is if they have a place in BIS story to warrant the work. If they do not its understandable they wont be added. Please refrain from insulting our service woman any longer.

[dm 9]

I wonder if SchnapsdroSel had to go through all of that.

You may be adding more work than necessary.

No, he didn't, since he simply put a female head on a male body.

Not such an issue in A2 where you could argue that a bulky uniform and body armour would make them look beefy. But in A3 where you can strip down to your underwear, I don't think that will fly...

I forgot to list all new-models for almost ALL of the gear and clothing too...

The female skeleton needs to be shorter, have narrower shoulders, broader hips and a slightly different posture to the male skeleton.

At this point, suggesting BI add women by hacks and bullshit is just ridiculous.... They're trying to make A3 MORE polished, not less...

And, more importantly, at the end of the day, BI adding women comes down to an effort vs reward outcome. All this bullshit about whether or not its realistic, whether or not its sexist, whether or not BI cares, is just that: bullshit.

The only thing BI cares about is: does it add anything to gameplay?

And the answer is: No. For the HUGE amount of effort needed across all departments, the reward for having female models at this stage of development is just not worth the effort they would have to spend on it. Not to mention that they do not have the time to implement it an debug it, since they are already flat out on finalising and fixing all the existing technologies...

[Dark6-6 10]

Not at all. I've never disputed their contribution I'm just disgusted by gender norming that endangers everyone in those impacted units. You post an example of them being strong. Women are not combat infantry. This is a combat infantry simulator. While having variety of new units is great, I would not want to have anything else dropped in favor of a feature which does not reflect reality.

[concurssi 11]

The only thing BI cares about is: does it add anything to gameplay?

And the answer is: No. For the HUGE amount of effort needed across all departments, the reward for having female models at this stage of development is just not worth the effort they would have to spend on it. Not to mention that they do not have the time to implement it an debug it, since they are already flat out on finalising and fixing all the existing technologies...

Where's your Developer badge? Since you now obviously work for BIS if you can make those statements for them.

[dm 9]

Where's your Developer badge? Since you now obviously work for BIS if you can make those statements for them.

You don't need to be a developer to see this. The interviews, the sitreps, the spotreps all provide more than enough information to piece together this picture.

Everyone is looking at this from a gamer perspective: Want want want want want.

I'm looking at if from an experienced perspective: There is a project with specific goals. Does this addition add to the project in a meaningful way at this stage of development for the amount of work required? No, ok, lets not do it.

Simple.

[nodunit 397]

No, he didn't, since he simply put a female head on a male body.

Not such an issue in A2 where you could argue that a bulky uniform and body armour would make them look beefy. But in A3 where you can strip down to your underwear, I don't think that will fly...

I forgot to list all new-models for almost ALL of the gear and clothing too...

The female skeleton needs to be shorter, have narrower shoulders, broader hips and a slightly different posture to the male skeleton.

At this point, suggesting BI add women by hacks and bullshit is just ridiculous.... They're trying to make A3 MORE polished, not less...

And, more importantly, at the end of the day, BI adding women comes down to an effort vs reward outcome. All this bullshit about whether or not its realistic, whether or not its sexist, whether or not BI cares, is just that: bullshit.

The only thing BI cares about is: does it add anything to gameplay?

And the answer is: No. For the HUGE amount of effort needed across all departments, the reward for having female models at this stage of development is just not worth the effort they would have to spend on it. Not to mention that they do not have the time to implement it an debug it, since they are already flat out on finalising and fixing all the existing technologies...

If we go by Arma 2's example which follows what you said...why waste the time making them at all, civilian or no.

I'm not against what you're saying, I don't give a damn about realism or authenticity in this matter, wether or not real world militaries use it, I'm not even thinking military, I'm thinking mechanics.

At the very basic of it all is the civilian level, if you have male civilians and female civilians yet the males are capable of taking up arms, while the females aren't, why waste the time developing the models and textures in the first place.

I don't understand why you assign the skeleton which would be rigging the body joints to what would be a model changes, shoulders and hips.

I wouldn't touch the height for matter of hit boxes and to avoid pvp'ers griping about unfair advantages.

Edited June 23, 2013 by NodUnit

[Mirudes 1]

@DM

Do you remember that the people here in the forum already have paid for ArmA3?

It's Bohemia Interactive who already have taken their money and still wants to sell more copies of this game.

Therefore they are using a voting feature in their bugtracker:

No female soldiers models available is actually on the fourth place with 1142 : 697 votes.

If it is a NOT so important feature, why is BIS using female avatars in the DayZ-standalone?

Where is the synergy-effect from DayZ-Standalone to ArmA3?

Why not simply take the female modells from DayZ?

[dm 9]

I don't understand why you assign the skeleton which would be rigging the body joints to what would be a model changes, shoulders and hips.

Because the size/shape of the mesh is "controlled" by the animations. The animation system in RV is both incredibly powerful AND incredibly limiting.

To have any meaningful difference between size/shape of the character models, you really need to create a whole new set of animations, since the animation matrices stored in the RTM files are absolute - so if your mesh differs from the pre-determined size/shape for a character model, then you're in for a world of pain (and tree-people).

On top of that the animations are tied to the skeleton, so to make any meaningful changes to the size/shape of the character model, you must have a new mesh, new RTMs and a new skeleton (even if it has identical bone structure to the existing one, its just a limitation of the engine...)

I wouldn't touch the height for matter of hit boxes and to avoid pvp'ers griping about unfair advantages.

Then what is the authentic reason for having women? If they are the same height, build and volume of the male characters, why even bother having them? Just up the pitch of the voice and slap a female face texture on if thats what you want?

BI want to do things properly this time round, Joris and Jay have made that much clear in their interviews.

Globally, men are, on average 10 - 20 cm taller than women. This would need to be reflected ingame if it was to have any authenticity at all.

Yes, this introduces a whole new set of problems for PvP, which is another tick in the "lets not bother doing it" box.

@DM

Do you remember that the people here in the forum already have paid for ArmA3?

Yup, and I fail to see what relevance that has here?

Or do you expect the bakery to add in extra slices of bread to that loaf once you've bought it?

Do you expect a car manufacturer to add in, say, air conditioning to your car, for free, after you've bought it?

Just because people have paid for something, does not mean they have any right to any creative input at all...

If it is a NOT so important feature, why is BIS using female avatars in the DayZ-standalone?

Because they do not have such strict creative control on DayZ development? Its already a year late, and is likely to be pushed even further to accommodate all the random shit they're adding in (like, for instance, females)

Where is the synergy-effect from DayZ-Standalone to ArmA3?

Why not simply take the female modells from DayZ?

Maybe the creative team on A3 have evaluated the changes being made to DayZ, and decided that the technology is too incomplete, too risky, or too much effort to port at this late stage of development?

Just because functionality is in product 1, there is no reason to assume it is simply a flip of the switch to enable it in product 2. There are so many more things to be considered in terms of functionality, reliability, interoperability that need to be tested and fixed before you can just plonk something new into your game...

So many of these responses indicate a complete lack of understanding on how game development works... :j:

[benjamin1 10]

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6019/5914946669_1ba7b8a109.jpg

Dont make stupid statements. Just because you dont see the benefit, does not mean there is not a benefit. Especially since you are not educated enough to know the reasoning. If it fits into their story so be it, if it does not fit then in typical arma fashion it will be up to the community to do so. To the poster will the brilliant plan to "all you have to do is reshape clothing and model the body. You have never worked with a 3d program, and further we dont have access to the original models. The clothing and body are 1 item. when you swap uniforms you swap bodies.

So .. yes you included a picture of a group of female soldiers in your post, what does that have to proof? that it's beneficial ? As for 3d programs I have to disapoint you, I work with 3d programs all the time as it is part of my job. As for education, i don't see a discussion of including or not including female soldiers in a game part of academic reasoning or higher education.

[nodunit 397]

Because the size/shape of the mesh is "controlled" by the animations. The animation system in RV is both incredibly powerful AND incredibly limiting.

To have any meaningful difference between size/shape of the character models, you really need to create a whole new set of animations, since the animation matrices stored in the RTM files are absolute - so if your mesh differs from the pre-determined size/shape for a character model, then you're in for a world of pain (and tree-people).

On top of that the animations are tied to the skeleton, so to make any meaningful changes to the size/shape of the character model, you must have a new mesh, new RTMs and a new skeleton (even if it has identical bone structure to the existing one, its just a limitation of the engine...)

Huh I see..wasn't aware that RV was THAT picky, I figured most engines were alike in that as long as the mesh follows the same flow, with edgeloops and vertices around the same pivoting joints then all should be well.

Again I said my reason of opinion were never based on authenticity, merely mechanics, the whole gameplay incompatible female civilian mess again, I'd rather see none if it's the same as arma 2.