Steamworks, add it in or not?

[-Paladin- 10]

And your proof would be?

The success of online distribution , Steam is till there, origin :mad: Blizzard thingi and many others that will follow.

Capitalism and the need for money from Company's, why sell over 3 or 5 instances when you can sell directly and keep all the money.

The standard of all AAA games to bind there games to a perm acc and so to bind you to a Platform and a company.

Proof is the market, and this discussion.

I wonder why the above should be considered an argument or even a point. Everyone knows that you don't have unlimited rights to the software. The critical issue is that more often than not nowadays you can't sell the box and media to someone because they become paper weight the moment you bind the software to some account. Another critical issue is also that you can indeed sell the physical media of non-binding software as opposed to digitally bought software. No matter how you look at it, your rights and options as a customer and consumer are getting diminished, and that's why I find it silly that it's other consumers that play advocate to that practice.

Because not every one is knowing this, every one is a strong word.

Reading through this posts i get somehow the feeling that ppl think they can do what ever they want because they paid 50 bucks.

A Company can decide to write in the Eula "We don´t allow you to sell our software the a third person" and then?

I have written this also because its the Company that decides what happens with the software and not the distribution platform. so if I sell on steam and I want that my game can be resell´d why should Steam say no?Because they get no money of the sell?Sure its there infrastructure used for that sell. Because I get no money of the sell? Sure I did all the work I want my cut.

Its not fair the demonize Steam and not loose a word on the Dev´s and company's using steam as distributing platform.

Every one plays a role in this "consumer rights abusing"

Edited June 29, 2012 by -Paladin-

[celery 8]

Because not every one is knowing this, every one is a strong word.

Reading through this posts i get somehow the feeling that ppl think they can do what ever they want because they paid 50 bucks.

If that's what you've gathered, then you might want to re-check those posts, because most likely what you interpret as "doing whatever they want" just means wanting the ability to sell your copy to someone else, something that is taken for granted with almost any other commodity. Would you be okay with it if your music and movie discs, tv, pc or console came with a letter from the company telling you that you mustn't sell or even give them to anyone else, and the only legal way to get rid of them is to throw them in the trash? That's just a way for the companies to make more money, so it must be okay and you can just abstain from buying if you don't agree, right?

[gpha5e 1]

i like how i can keep all my games in one place like Steam or Origin, so why not? devs just need to make the game less buggy

[-Paladin- 10]

If that's what you've gathered, then you might want to re-check those posts, because most likely what you interpret as "doing whatever they want" just means wanting the ability to sell your copy to someone else, something that is taken for granted with almost any other commodity. Would you be okay with it if your music and movie discs, tv, pc or console came with a letter from the company telling you that you mustn't sell or even give them to anyone else, and the only legal way to get rid of them is to throw them in the trash? That's just a way for the companies to make more money, so it must be okay and you can just abstain from buying if you don't agree, right?

Yes.

Thats how the market works and taking something for granted is foolish,when its standing in law books its its granted when not, it´s a trap.

You can support this by buying from this company's or you don´t buy from this company's thats the only thing a costumer can do.

Vote with your wallet.I cant do more as this.

[Echo38 1]

I'm starting to really like you, Celery. Seems like every time you open your mouth, sense comes out. : )

[celery 8]

Yes.

Thats how the market works and taking something for granted is foolish,when its standing in law books its its granted when not, it´s a trap.

You can support this by buying from this company's or you don´t buy from this company's thats the only thing a costumer can do.

Vote with your wallet.I cant do more as this.

If your only argument about the acceptability of certain business practices is that that's just how it currently works, you bring very little to the discussion besides just stating the obvious and letting us know that you agree with however something works on a given day regardless of how it may affect you or others.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Celery

[Echo38 1]

Also: one-man boycotts never work, no matter how justified. I would know--from long, unpleasant experience. So telling someone to "vote with their wallet" is basically telling him to go fly a kite. A few perceptive people may recognize a major problem with a given business practice (insurance, DRM, McDonalds, Facebook, whatever)--but as long as throngs, masses, and hordes blindly buy it, it unfortunately doesn't matter if the few boycott it. The irresponsible and immoral companies can thrive without the support of the few. Ugly system. Just as ugly are those who would force it on others.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Echo38

[jblackrupert 14]

Trading Steam games with other Steam users is allowed.

There is a Steam forum that allows Steam users to contact each other and make trades

It's monitored by Steam for any issues with people scamming anyone.

Other then not being able to sell your game it is a lot safer then flogging MP games that use an account/Key system

on places like Craigslist were there is nothing to prevent the seller from continuing to use the key.

Edited July 1, 2012 by jblackrupert

[Herbal Influence 10]

Someone above said: "The DVD is yours, but not the software." That's not correct under German law. In Germany (and I think in quite all other European Countries) the software on the CD is as much yours as the DVD itself. And therefore you are allowed to sell it to whoever you want.

Oh - thank you Steam for allowing me to sell my game to someone else from Steam!! :mad:

I am used to be allowed and able to sell my BIS-DVDs to whomever I like. Since 2001.

I don't need Steam "to give me a freedom" of a lesser quality.

Steam is the deathrow for free software.

If I want to degenerate, I use alc, not just Steam.

See my signature.

[Tonci87 163]

Someone above said: "The DVD is yours, but not the software." That's not correct under German law. In Germany (and I think in quite all other European Countries) the software on the CD is as much yours as the DVD itself. And therefore you are allowed to sell it to whoever you want.

Oh - thank you Steam for allowing me to sell my game to someone else from Steam!! :mad:

I am used to be allowed and able to sell my BIS-DVDs to whomever I like. Since 2001.

I don't need Steam "to give me a freedom" of a lesser quality.

Steam is the deathrow for free software.

If I want to degenerate, I use alc, not just Steam.

See my signature.

I fear it is not that easy. Even in Germany the software doesn´t belong to you. This area isn´t really covered by the law. So unless someone goes to court and fights for his right it will stay the way it is.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

-Paladin- time to re-read the thread title and the opening statment. Your argument dosn't seem particular to steamworks, just defending steam in general wich isn't actualy the topic.

Whats more this thread needs a problem solved button

http://www.thereticule.com/arma-3-wont-use-steam-workshop-will-have-better-mod-integration/

[Herbal Influence 10]

I fear it is not that easy. Even in Germany the software doesn´t belong to you. This area isn´t really covered by the law. So unless someone goes to court and fights for his right it will stay the way it is.

You have any doubt that I can sell you my BIS-DVDs legally clear, legally binding, absolutely clean?

[batto 17]

You have any doubt that I can sell you my BIS-DVDs legally clear, legally binding, absolutely clean?

You cannot burn a DVD copy and sell it to friend. (?) You cannot modify content on DVD and use it. Welcome to 21th century :rolleyes:.

[Herbal Influence 10]

LOL ... that's something different. From just selling the DVD ?

[dmarkwick 261]

LOL ... that's something different. From just selling the DVD ?

Well there you have it :) you own the DVD, not the contents. Like you can own a book, but not the texts inside. You can't sell the story inside, but you can sell the book it's printed on. It's a confusing point, but the digital nature of software compounds this further. You never own the software, just a license to run the software.

Most of the time this is a minor point in the face of second-hand game selling.

[rainbird 1]

DM: Recent online licence authorization systems (like Steam) make it easier than EVER to ensure only a single user has a "copy" of each license. Steam themselves have openly admitted that it would be extremely easy and simple for them to enable the transfer/sell of game licences between accounts.

So, obviously, Steam are not using this system to prevent piracy. They're using the system to restrict our clear right to sell. And by doing that, create a false economy where people who've unwittingly purchased a crap, over-hyped game (90% all games made today) are lumbered with their dud $70 purchase and have no "right" to sell their own worthless property. Which means the next unsuspecting victim of that BS game will be forced to purchase the game full price rather than finding an unwanted copy.

All good for Steam and greedy game publishers, not so good for gamers and our consumer rights.

Edited July 2, 2012 by rainbird

[celery 8]

Here is a piece of news that may be of interest regarding the broader digital distribution discussion.

Oracle cannot block the resale of its software in Europe

The decision of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) applies to the whole of the software industry operating within the EU, not just Oracle and UsedSoft, the German reseller that Oracle sued. It follows an opinion in April by CJEU advocate-general, Yves Bot, who also said that the same resale rights should apply to downloaded software that apply to software sold on CDs or DVDs.

"Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy — tangible or intangible — and at the same time concludes, in return [for] payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy"

"Therefore, even if the licence agreement prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy."

The court added that allowing different rules for downloadable software "would go beyond what is necessary to safeguard the specific subject-matter of the intellectual property concerned."

Personally, I like this development. Any opponents of reselling are free to speak out if they feel their rights are being trampled, of course.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Celery

[Tonci87 163]

Here is a piece of news that may be of interest regarding the broader digital distribution discussion.

Oracle cannot block the resale of its software in Europe

Personally, I like this development. Any opponents of reselling are free to speak out if they feel their rights are being trampled, of course.

Good news. That means it is completely legal to sell your Steam games. The question remains if Valve has to help you doing that.

[rainbird 1]

Yep, very good news indeed. So the EU court has established the legality of reselling our own licences (which, really, is just common sense) but it says nothing of the legality of "services" such as Steam, which systematically prevent it users from reselling licences. I suspect they will continue to get away with it as Steam users willingly accept Steams EULA.

But it's definetely a step in the right direction.

[Herbal Influence 10]

Well there you have it :) you own the DVD, not the contents. Like you can own a book, but not the texts inside. You can't sell the story inside, but you can sell the book it's printed on. It's a confusing point, but the digital nature of software compounds this further. You never own the software, just a license to run the software.

Most of the time this is a minor point in the face of second-hand game selling.

Yeah, and now the highest European Court decided: Whether you downloaded the software or bought it on a DVD, the seller / manufacturer / Programmer is not allowed to hinder you to transfer it. So I estimate that Steams practise is illegal which restricts your right of selling your version to someone outside Steam.

[dmarkwick 261]

Yeah, and now the highest European Court decided: Whether you downloaded the software or bought it on a DVD, the seller / manufacturer / Programmer is not allowed to hinder you to transfer it. So I estimate that Steams practise is illegal which restricts your right of selling your version to someone outside Steam.

My expectations on this issue will be that a pragmatic approach will emerge: that you can sell your Steam game to whoever you wish, it's just that they'll need Steam to run it. A bit like the right to sell your PC software to a Mac owner :) they'll just need a PC to run it.

[amadieus 0]

Intresting thread.

As also being a fan of the Total war series i follow that forum frequently. And because of there announcement of the newest title the discussion around steam also gets back. (Total War games are since 2009 Steam only)

Suprisingly most people support steam there wich seems that people got used to it.

Also for Arma 3 i see a few nice advantages when using Steam as seen on the first page.

Arguments against steam only come from people that fear the unknown or have simply bad internet.

As stated before i really don't understand how anyone could hate steam just because they can't re-sell ther game? I do support that it is possible but i mean do you really need to re sell every game you have?

The bad internet part is a harder nut to crack. Some people just can't get better internet due to location.

And in these cases i can understand the dislike for Steam.

But in the end the conclusion is that steam and that kind of services are the future as psychial copies are being sold less and less.

[Tonci87 163]

Intresting thread.

As also being a fan of the Total war series i follow that forum frequently. And because of there announcement of the newest title the discussion around steam also gets back. (Total War games are since 2009 Steam only)

Suprisingly most people support steam there wich seems that people got used to it.

Also for Arma 3 i see a few nice advantages when using Steam as seen on the first page.

Arguments against steam only come from people that fear the unknown or have simply bad internet.

As stated before i really don't understand how anyone could hate steam just because they can't re-sell ther game? I do support that it is possible but i mean do you really need to re sell every game you have?

The bad internet part is a harder nut to crack. Some people just can't get better internet due to location.

And in these cases i can understand the dislike for Steam.

But in the end the conclusion is that steam and that kind of services are the future as psychial copies are being sold less and less.

Yeah until the next title is released and the game you just bought doesn´t want to install from the DVD (wich would take half an hour), but decides to download everything from Steam Servers (wich takes at least a day).

[rainbird 1]

Intresting thread.

As also being a fan of the Total war series i follow that forum frequently. And because of there announcement of the newest title the discussion around steam also gets back. (Total War games are since 2009 Steam only)

Suprisingly most people support steam there wich seems that people got used to it.

Also for Arma 3 i see a few nice advantages when using Steam as seen on the first page.

Arguments against steam only come from people that fear the unknown or have simply bad internet.

As stated before i really don't understand how anyone could hate steam just because they can't re-sell ther game? I do support that it is possible but i mean do you really need to re sell every game you have?

The bad internet part is a harder nut to crack. Some people just can't get better internet due to location.

And in these cases i can understand the dislike for Steam.

But in the end the conclusion is that steam and that kind of services are the future as psychial copies are being sold less and less.

What your average Total War player will tolerate, just so that he can play TW and not have to make a principled stand against Steam's illegal practices is no justification for what Steam do. What Steam are doing is clearly wrong, whether you look at it in terms of the consumer laws of most Western countries or simply in terms of common sense principle.

It has nothing to do with "fearing the unknown". In fact, it's having a clear understanding of exactly what Steam are doing which makes some of us dislike their business practices so much. Quite the opposite to fearing the unknown, my friend - the exact opposite in fact.

I agree that digital download, with a decent, fair and legal EULA, *IS* the future. And I personally welcome that. The problem is, Steam's EULA is not decent, fair and will more than likely be proven illegal in the not too distant future.

But all that doesn't concern you, eh? You're happy, as long as you have a fast download connection. Typical self-centered and shortsighted response of today's Average Joe.

Edited July 6, 2012 by rainbird

[kilroy the nerd 14]

Have game on Steam? I hope.

Use steamworks? Please no

I play most of my games on Steam but like said previously, the downsides are extensive on using Steamworks.

I gotta agree with the guys here though, a shame I can't sell my copy if for some reason I didn't like it (I think the only way to get rid of a game and get a refund is by contacting Steam support, so...)

Edited July 9, 2012 by Kilroy the Nerd