Realistic Wounds and treatment for ARMA 3

[max power 21]

Look Max if you aren't going to be constructive then please leave this thread.

lulz

To the people who are saying 'the system would be more realistic than the system we already have', I think we established a page ago that more realism != better gameplay.

Right now, the effects of being wounded are kind of glossed over for the sake of gameplay. The FA module plays animations of a soldier doing a primary and secondary survey and doing other live saving type activities, then you can move around again. Seems reasonable because it lacks detail.

When you go right out and say, 'this man has a compound leg fracture and a ruptured aeorta, and is missing 50% of his blood volume and is in deep hypervolumic shock', then you press some buttons and he's up and running again, you dash all the credibility you've just built up.

[rye1 21]

Nothing is wrong with NOT lacking detail. It could easily space itself out over time, not happen in a few seconds. You wouldn't actually create a system where you were in the hospital for a few months just for the sake of credibility or that you jumped up and were perfect, thanks for the opinions Max. Not appreciated.

It's the next step up for some type of realism, that is a big aspect of gameplay. That's why I personally play Arma. The wounds you talk of have a low chance of successful recovery, nevermind saving the patient there and then - take that into account.

[Militant1006 11]

I think that having an advanced wounds module (that should be optional, so people like Max Power can enjoy simplicity) should have two goals:

1. To make the process of getting the casualty back to base very important.

2. To increase the depth and difficulty of a medics job.

this is good for hardcore groups that want realistic wounds, I think that making medevac required is very important, but the time they are at base could be reduced for gameplay reasons, so they can get back into a fighting ready condition in a minute or two, and for the medics job, instead of having an obvious scroll option that says "heal", there could be multiple treatment options, and you get an examination of their wounded state via text, so it is possible to get wrong, similar to AA3's wounding.

Once again I will say that Arma is a game about realism, simulation is obviously important, now having a flexible level of simulation is good, being able to give the hardcore players what they want should be fairly important, having an option for a limited simulation like now with the drag and revive is not a bad idea, but also adding an advanced portion is a good idea.

Today on the frontline casualty management is a very important part of Warfare, so giving players the option to simulate it as much as possible without removing enjoyment is a good thing.

[Tom1 10]

Couldn't have said it better myself militant, check my first post, an alternate simple medic system has been added and everythign is more organised, clear and understandable and overall better.

[max power 21]

Yes we should make every feature optional :rolleyes:

I don't know if there's a problem with reading comprehension in this thread, but I was arguing for consistency, not simplicity.

[Daniel 0]

We're definitely talking about different levels of realism here. And BIS (or the community) can implement a number of them, they've all get their pros and cons, and their audiences.

Way I see it:

As realistic as possible. This means if the systems are in place, survivors will be CASEVACed and triaged. They won't get back in the field, but their evacuation is there for realism's sake and as an objective of sorts. This would be especially suited to single player campaigns, where the killed:wounded ratio could have an influence on the overall outcome. Only minor injuries would allow a soldier back into the fight.

"Semi-realistic" co-op gameplay. Here you want a mix of realism, and gameplay. So you might still have CASEVACs and field hopstials, but the healing process would be sped up for the sake of gameplay.

You then have various levels of realism all the way down to infinite revives or instant respawn. At any point during this, any level of complexity could be used in the actual action of "healing" a player, from the simple HEAL option to a complex minigame. What actually determines the type of gameplay are the options I outlined above. The exception being the added gameplay value when playing a medic.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Daniel

[rye1 21]

Breaking it into basic and advanced via modules will satisfy some audiences, it wouldn't matter as community modders will probably make their own revive systems anyway. To satisfy different audiences in terms of realism, gameplay and productiveness which would probably mean changing it out quite a bit.

It's only an idea though, it hasn't been made and if it was to then changes would probably be made to suit everybody. The base idea is good though - to improve the medics role and related scripts (e.g. hitlocations).

[neokika 62]

Hello,

Would be very nice to have a first aid & battlefield clearance implemented in the actual engine instead of the usual scripted solution. Or keep the same scripted solution, improving it a lot.

If rag-dolls are in fact included, would be nice to use it when dragging and carrying, lets say, when you want to drag a guy, if you are close to his head, you would grab him by the shoulder, if by side, you would grab a arm and a leg if near the feet.

Some kind of side by side animation would also be good, something like this, also keeping the traditional animation for more extreme situations.

Some kind of bandage system, where medics actually carry a limited number of bandages etc. This should not be too much complex though, healing should be made simple, not forcing new players to have some First Aid lessons before they can heal in-game. :)

3D particles for blood and blood splatter on ground/walls, and maybe a tuned down dismemberment would also be very good.

_neo_

[Tom1 10]

Yeah man animations deffinitly need work and would make this soo much more immersive.

Also a cool interaction menu would make medical treament more fun. I mean the ACE menu was great, but after some PR screenys I reckon a radial wheel with different colourful options is the way to go :D

[Murphe 0]

I think this is a little much, and the word 'simulation' is thrown around all too often with the Arma series. The game still has to be fun and as many have pointed out more realism does not always equal more fun for most players. Don't get me wrong I would like to see a slightly more complex system than we have now but not to the level you are suggesting.

The A.I. just isn't up to scratch to support such a system. They don't have the desire of self-preservation that players do. Their go to move when under fire to just hit the deck or continue jogging where they were going, where as players sprint to solid cover. The A.I. are also unable to recognise a kill zone and will wander into an area where several of their buddies have already been killed and they don't stay in cover when under suppressive fire. What this means is that the A.I. get wounded, a lot, especially in larger engagements. This means that as a medic there is a good chance you would spend an unrealistic amount of time treating wounded.

In any case, further realism in the wounding and medic system must be optional (i.e. module based).

[Tom1 10]

I think we can all agree though that without accumulatijg hitpoints killing us, proper body armour implimentation (explained how in first post), a damage formula involving how velocit effects damage and better animations will make arma 3 damn near perfect. I am going to try and make a poll and add it to this thread.

[Maciek95PL 10]

I'd really love to see more complex medic system, so not everyone could be a medic and the treatment wouldn't always be successful due to medic's mistake or fact, that wound was too serious. MEDEVAC sounds good too.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Maciek95PL
Lack of 1 word

[dale0404 5]

The healing system needs to be reworked and I mean more than a tweak. I cant remember but I believe that if you are carrying out a heal animation on a player there is no way of ejecting from that animation until its complete, ie the soldier is healed by you.

There has got to be a way of cancelling the healing process if you come under enemy fire...

[Tom1 10]

The healing system needs to be reworked and I mean more than a tweak. I cant remember but I believe that if you are carrying out a heal animation on a player there is no way of ejecting from that animation until its complete, ie the soldier is healed by you.

There has got to be a way of cancelling the healing process if you come under enemy fire...

You are absolutely right man. Arma 2 is great but everythign feels clunky. If physics and animations are improved to be less clunky, I am hoping the medic system will be too.

[Maddmatt 1]

The healing system needs to be reworked and I mean more than a tweak. I cant remember but I believe that if you are carrying out a heal animation on a player there is no way of ejecting from that animation until its complete, ie the soldier is healed by you.

There has got to be a way of cancelling the healing process if you come under enemy fire...

That's what the wounding system needs... to be fixed up and made more user friendly. You need to be able to run if you're giving first aid and come under fire.

We don't need all the overcomplicated shit. This is still a game, and development time can be spent on better things.

[metalcraze 290]

ACE2 system but with an agony state from BIS First Aid would be perfect.

AI medics know what and how to use those medical items in ACE2 so all BIS needs is 'copy-paste'

I simply dislike this eternal healing we have now in vanilla. Medics should run out of supplies so you will try to risk your squad less

[rye1 21]

That's what the wounding system needs... to be fixed up and made more user friendly. You need to be able to run if you're giving first aid and come under fire.

We don't need all the overcomplicated shit. This is still a game, and development time can be spent on better things.

Agreed while secretly wanting a realistic system. If BIS give us the basics though modders can improve on.

EDIT: And the above post, I agree fully. Good points.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Rye

[Maddmatt 1]

Agreed while secretly wanting a realistic system. If BIS give us the basics though modders can improve on.

That's the thing, modders will take things to the crazy extreme. It's up to BIS to get everything working well and make good game that appeals to a large variety of gamers.

Then mod teams like ACE expand on that with all the crazy stuff that the more hardcore among us can enjoy in our regular multiplayer sessions with our buddies :)

The more time BIS spends on crazy little things that only the hardcore crowd wants, the more important things get neglected like overall gameplay, performance and quality. That puts off the more casual players.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Maddmatt

[Tom1 10]

First up, thank you everyone for all the feedback, it has been nice to here positive and constructive remarks from all of you :)

ACE2 system but with an agony state from BIS First Aid would be perfect.

AI medics know what and how to use those medical items in ACE2 so all BIS needs is 'copy-paste'

I simply dislike this eternal healing we have now in vanilla. Medics should run out of supplies so you will try to risk your squad less

I agree although my suggestions can all be implimented really easilly and actually in the exact same way as bandages and bleeding have been implimented in ace (open up ace_sys_wound.pbo not as complicated as you would think) and more detail could have been gone into in ace's medical system, it feels really repedative like there is no challenge.

I reckon ACE 2 now should already have agony and although the ACE system works, it is missing stuff. Bleeding and pain is good but once you bring unconsciousness due to bloodloss into the picture, you are leaving out essentials such as breathing and cardiac arrest, which in a system like ACE can be treated easilly with the right equipment (just like bandages heal bleeding in ace, certain equiptment may heal breathing or cardiac arrest). Tourniquets, plasma/IVs and splint were all originally going to be in ACE2, and auto-injectors (a renamed epi) now having negative effects and being a last resort, adding AEDs (defibrillators) for cardiac arrest and smelling salts for breathing (like a bandage for bleeding) just go hand in hand with the current system.

And now that compression and CPR are in ACE all these new features I have put fourth don't seem so daunting or overkill afterall if you ask me, but this is my personal oppinion.

But to clear things up the advanced system I had in mind is based heavilly on how ace is now, just with more wounding types and corresponding treatment.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Tom1

[Tom1 10]

first post updated

[Sky999 10]

I want to point this out, and there's every chance I'm wrong about this, but wouldn't an extremely advanced wounding system lead to many units not actually being killed?

If so, then that's fine, it's realistic, we all know that in combat a bullet to the chest often does not mean you are instantly dead like ARMA2 portrays. I would love to see a more realistic portrayal of wounding and bullet damage instead of the stereotypical view ARMA seems to take which is "Well If a bullet hits you then you're instantly dead"...

The problem with this would be that in the context of the game and it's objectives, players would essentially be forced to become war criminals to accomplish their goals.

Say a mission involved capturing a town and the mission was set to accomplish this when 'Opfor not present'. The only way, unless wounded opfor would count as 'dead', would mean to execute every wounded opfor in the vicinity.

Realistically I don't see this as something that can be helped, in real life If a battle takes place at a town, then there are higher percentages of combatants being WIA than KIA, but in ARMA most missions require a 100% enemy KIA rate to accomplish missions. I'm not under the illusion it can be helped though, If it was then a lot of our time in-game would be spent treating enemy combatants who we've wounded and setting details to guard them until they can be handed over as POWs.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Sky999

[SgtBigRig 10]

units not being killed? oh crap its brink all over again

[PuFu 4600]

That's what the wounding system needs... to be fixed up and made more user friendly. You need to be able to run if you're giving first aid and come under fire.

We don't need all the overcomplicated shit. This is still a game, and development time can be spent on better things.

what matt said

[Ish 11]

Brilliant idea. I would probably also vote for a weighting scale that you will have to use prior to gaming that will gather your weight and fat % so that it can simulate how far can you run without running short on breath!

So body fat percentage is an accurate measurment of how well conditioned you are? :D

[SPC.Spets 21]

a wall of text nobody is gonna read

I play with ACE2, and most of the players doesnt want to be medic, because the lack of action, he should be always in cover and behind, hidden from bullets. The ACE2 wonds system is good enough, if you want more realism for medics, then I suggest you to play Emergency something sim game