Realistic Wounds and treatment for ARMA 3

[Innomadic 10]

Yeah the medic system in AA3 is about the only thing they got right, you actually learned something in those training scenarios.

[rye1 21]

America's Army 3. It should have the stuff it already has in it.

OPA, Saline, Smelling Salts and Splint.

So OPA for non-breathing/airway management, saline for weak/dehydrated/in shock, smelling salts for unconscious and splint for broken or fractured bones, they had it this way in AA3. Bandages were there but not used in the action menu, you just held down a key and it told you what part of the body it was bandaging and bandaged it up in three seconds. And it was also randomised, I don't think it cared about where you were hit, it would just generate something wrong with you.

I believe there could be a better system than that as in the hitlocations knowing where you were hit and it would adjust off that. To me at least this would be better, it would cause more severity of wounds when you hit AI/players in a good wounding location - instead of them taking it like it was nothing as seen in AA3.

P.S. No one said you sit there for the rest of the mission, the post said "Splint can applied in a short amount of time to a unit with a broken leg to help them walk once they have been treated for pain. Be advised though walking without bleeding being treated to first will only increse the severity of the bleeding." but I understand where you are coming from, if you can self-treat that would be better - with better animations of limping and what not, even though with a broken femur you wouldn't be able to limp nevermind anything else - it is better for a gameplay choice.

[Tom1 10]

I think the system should be changed to something like this:

Open console

Type "this setDammage 0"

Close console.

Seriously, I have to say that this is a case where more "realism" does not equal more fun. If you want to go to a system like AA3, fine, but anything more than that would detract from the experience. At the end of the day, either the guy can get up to fight again or he can't. For most people who forked over $60, they are going to want to get back up, or if they have to wait through a lengthy heal phase, they will just hit respawn. As soon as we agree that wounded soldiers will be back in the fight, we are just arguing about realistic unrealism that ends up with the same result: a recovered fighting soldier or a dead respawning one. I would rather have resources spent on something like a working m203 sight, or windage on scopes, or realistic accuracy on AI or the ability to drop a grenade while moving or the ability to peek over grass or turn around elegantly in a hallway or have non-clunky dialogue like "hi, THERE" or CQB AI or undercover operatives or any number of other polishing touches to a great series.

my $.02

RR

Look mate I am sick to death with people like you coming here and complaining about an advanced system. IF YOU ACTUALLY READ THE FIRST POST YOU WOULD SEE THAT THERE WOULD BE AN OPTIONAL ADVANCED SYSTEM AND AN OPTIONAL SIMPLE SYSTEM. I completely understand that many people may not like this idea, but instead of talking shit about it give some feedback for the system that you would use (the simple one). Seriously that is the same as a straight man dissing on gay porn on a porn site, he isn't ever going to use it so it shouldn't bother him, but by complaining that it shouldnt be allowed he is screwing it up for homosexual people. Use a little bit of common sense mate before posting.

[rye1 21]

Well at the end of the day wounding depends on shot placement and especially on low FPS or low performance servers and computers you tend to see AI act all fine when shot in a perfectly acceptable place for them to drop to the ground. I think this is an important factor also, it's definately related to hit locations and hit detection.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Rye
3 Words

[OB1 10]

this is a good idea.. complexity is what sets arma apart from other games. Having this would actually give the medic a true role and would reserve the role for people willing to learn, furthermore it would allow a natural dynamic treatment governed by the efficiency and skill of each person, which would add to the medics value and individual player value..

If you don't like it don't be a medic... simple as that...

same should be said about pilots.. make the aircraft too complex to use to prevent people with obvious flight incompetence from flying.

Its a military sim.. im real life if your too dumb you become a rifleman or a latrine operator...

[Innomadic 10]

latrine operator...

Hey, thats hardcore shit, don't dis it.

[OB1 10]

Hey, thats hardcore shit, don't dis it.

I suppose its pretty technical, may require someone 'special'.

[eddie247 10]

I see this episode as a last stand type of combat so realism like soldier is shot then goes home to recover would not be an option.

That being said, ironing out the current medic glitches like in insurgency where healing fails and you pretty much have to rejoin the server, and adding a little more complexity to the injury system with possible addition of defribulator and heart/blood monitoring and blood transfusion if neccesary would add a little more skill and interest to the medic role.

Is there currently no simulation of body armour in the chest? Mb i'm thinking of another fps which in noob mode takes about 5 shots of 7.62 in the chest to kill someone, however frustrating it can be is probably more realistic than many other games however i struggle to believe than 2 shots of the same ammo does not dismember a limb or render it completely incapacitated.

Total limb dismemberment is not something I would put a priority on (albeit adding to RL factor) but the ability to disable a limb would nicer and especially if it reduced the speed of say reloading afterwards as the soldier could only use one arm.

I guess i would like to see injuries affect stamina/ balance as well much like it does in ACE.

Will keep watching this space though, looking forward to many marine assaults, walking out of the water to slit enemy patrolmens throats and james bond style underwater harpoon gun fights LOLLOLOLOLOL

[ZacharyHawk 10]

Wow! thats gonna be hard.Because im not experience with medical stuff lol anyway who cares atleast you get to know or understand it and atleast we can enjoy "BIS" new mil sim."ArmA III"

[rick rawlings 2]

Look mate I am sick to death with people like you coming here and complaining about an advanced system. IF YOU ACTUALLY READ THE FIRST POST YOU WOULD SEE THAT THERE WOULD BE AN OPTIONAL ADVANCED SYSTEM AND AN OPTIONAL SIMPLE SYSTEM. I completely understand that many people may not like this idea, but instead of talking shit about it give some feedback for the system that you would use (the simple one). Seriously that is the same as a straight man dissing on gay porn on a porn site, he isn't ever going to use it so it shouldn't bother him, but by complaining that it shouldnt be allowed he is screwing it up for homosexual people. Use a little bit of common sense mate before posting.

Hey, if you are sick to death, try this:

Open console

Type "This setDammage 0"

Close console.

I did read most of the first post. I don't think I "talked shit" about it, I think I expressed my opinion that it would be a waste of resources to tart it up too much for something that essentially boils down to "He can fight\he's dead". The server list I can access is already pretty bare with ping, mods, number of people playing and other stuff factored in, so a split like this would reduce it even more so it would affect me. I am all for a more realistic implementation when it adds to game play, but you could literally come up with a more complete role for everybody in the squad. I think a massive expansion for just the medic doesn't make much sense. Having said that, I do usually jump on as a medic when I play as I enjoy helping people out and playing that role. I don't really see how making it into a huge mini game would enhance my enjoyment when there is so much else to shore up in this series, which does tend to suffer from mission creep. That's my opinion and I think my sense has just the right amount of common in it. I might as well say "I'm sick of people starting posts and then dictating how people can respond to it in a discussion forum."

RR

[OB1 10]

I don't really see how making it into a huge mini game would enhance my enjoyment

Its not just about you as a medic. It would also be to make death more distasteful. As it is just a game people are less concerned about the idea of being shot at. Allot of people go rambo-ing into a town just to get shot then revived.

If reviving was such an ordeal then people would think twice about wandering off by themselves and incline people to be more combat cautious and work as a team... This is why "revive" was introduced in the first place and it works great.

I think it would enhance the game play on many levels...

hmmm I think we need a poll ?

Edited May 25, 2011 by OB1

[rick rawlings 2]

Its not just about you as a medic. It would also be to make death more distasteful. As it is just a game people are less concerned about the idea of being shot at. Allot of people go rambo-ing into a town just to get shot then revived.

If reviving was such an ordeal then people would think twice about wondering of by themselves and incline people to be more combat cautious and work as a team... This is why "revive" was introduced in the first place and it works great.

I think it would enhance the game play on many levels...

hmmm I think we need a poll ?

I certainly don't disagree with this sentiment, however, I think that there are a host of issues that need to be taken into consideration before death is made more punitive. In real life, I have a much wider field of view than even my 16:10 monitor field. My resolution is much higher, there are no LOD's to worry about when I am trying to identify friend or foe, people don't actually warp across time and space when I am trying to aim at them, etc. Just Sunday I was plunking away at someone when my rounds kept "sparking" off them. I aimed down slightly and my shots were hitting the "dirt" even though the "dirt" strike was in mid air in front of his face. I then got a couple of blood spurts out of him but he managed to find the magic pixel to shoot to kill me before I got him. The warp on a 69 ping at sniping distance was impossible. I totally agree about getting people to play more milsim and coordinated, but I already feel punished enough when I am killed in this game. If they lock all those issues down for the 3rd iteration of this series, then I would be up for some more difficulty :D

RR

p.s. I can't resist... what are they wondering about?

[OB1 10]

I certainly don't disagree with this sentiment, however, I think that there are a host of issues that need to be taken into consideration before death is made more punitive. In real life, I have a much wider field of view than even my 16:10 monitor field. My resolution is much higher, there are no LOD's to worry about when I am trying to identify friend or foe, people don't actually warp across time and space when I am trying to aim at them, etc. Just Sunday I was plunking away at someone when my rounds kept "sparking" off them. I aimed down slightly and my shots were hitting the "dirt" even though the "dirt" strike was in mid air in front of his face. I then got a couple of blood spurts out of him but he managed to find the magic pixel to shoot to kill me before I got him. The warp on a 69 ping at sniping distance was impossible. I totally agree about getting people to play more milsim and coordinated, but I already feel punished enough when I am killed in this game. If they lock all those issues down for the 3rd iteration of this series, then I would be up for some more difficulty :D

RR

p.s. I can't resist... what are they wondering about?

LOL sure ok, i do understand but you cannot detract from features because of bugs. The annoying issues you describe I feel do need to be tended to, but you cannot allow those issues that are not in anyway shape or form designed to be that way to punish you.. As for your peripheral perspective and load issues you also cannot use it as an excuse to dismiss a feature.. otherwise games in general will be featureless..

To remedy your field of view try a 3 monitor setup ? and a beefier system for lod issues ? I have no issues with IFF as a rag on head is pretty easy to spot :p

As for my wondering issues.... I was wondering if wander was what I was wondering about...:D

[rick rawlings 2]

LOL sure ok, i do understand but you cannot detract from features because of bugs. The annoying issues you describe I feel do need to be tended to, but you cannot allow those issues that are not in anyway shape or form designed to be that way to punish you.. As for your peripheral perspective and load issues you also cannot use it as an excuse to dismiss a feature.. otherwise games in general will be featureless..

To remedy your field of view try a 3 monitor setup ? and a beefier system for lod issues ? I have no issues with IFF as a rag on head is pretty easy to spot :p

As for my wondering issues.... I was wondering if wander was what I was wondering about...:D

Fair enough, although I would counter that many of those bugs have been around long enough to qualify as features at this point! :nener:

[rye1 21]

Sorry Rick, Bush is a clan member of my clan and he stated over skype it wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at other people who come and say something but do not add to the discussion.

It's all about asking what people want and trying to push the system a little bit more, if people come on and say 'no I don't like this' or another repetitive comment without reading any posts then fine but put down what you would like to see, it is about Arma 3's medical system - not just a system like this with both advanced (realistic) and basic modules.

It's not just expanding the medics role either, it's expanding the engine and fixing common gamebreaking, feature-breaking bugs like hitlocations and hitdetection not working 100%. The engine doesn't always know where you have hit and it sends some amount of the damage to the rest of the body even if you were hit in the toe, you'd get damage to the head.

This would make it hard for modders trying to mod a realistic system of treating an injured part, say the leg, instead of the leg, chest and head because it can't calculate that properly.

Do not worry about ping as of now. This medical system (which won't be implemented but should be discussed) wouldn't be the ping heightening, lag increasing problem of the game. But I agree, the netcode needs work and other multiplayer issues like this would fix a whole lot of problems.

Hopefully the blood splatter, animations and sense of getting hit will be improved. But you can only hope. :D

[OB1 10]

Fair enough, although I would counter that many of those bugs have been around long enough to qualify as features at this point! :nener:

True, true enough :rolleyes: hopefully that will change...

[Tom1 10]

Hey, if you are sick to death, try this:

Open console

Type "This setDammage 0"

Close console.

I did read most of the first post. I don't think I "talked shit" about it, I think I expressed my opinion that it would be a waste of resources to tart it up too much for something that essentially boils down to "He can fight\he's dead". The server list I can access is already pretty bare with ping, mods, number of people playing and other stuff factored in, so a split like this would reduce it even more so it would affect me. I am all for a more realistic implementation when it adds to game play, but you could literally come up with a more complete role for everybody in the squad. I think a massive expansion for just the medic doesn't make much sense. Having said that, I do usually jump on as a medic when I play as I enjoy helping people out and playing that role. I don't really see how making it into a huge mini game would enhance my enjoyment when there is so much else to shore up in this series, which does tend to suffer from mission creep. That's my opinion and I think my sense has just the right amount of common in it. I might as well say "I'm sick of people starting posts and then dictating how people can respond to it in a discussion forum."

RR

First of all, I appologise for snapping, I was tired and grumpy at the time, although it is still no excuse for typing without thinking. I will discuss all issues you have since brought up further down this post. Please read carefully, as us arguing isn't going to do anything other than get us even more pissed off and possibly get this thread locked.

The advanced system would be optional, and you could always use the simple system if that is your taste. The medic system would not be like a minigame but more like AA3's or ACE2's system, more similarilly set up to ace but more like AA3 in the sense that there is more for the medic to do and a medic can make mistakes leading to negative consequences, making the game more challenging, especially under stress. I understand how you may not want this, but please remember that it [the advanced medical system] is not being forced upon you, but it is only an option for hardcore players who do enjoy the extra realism/challenge.

I would really appreciate it if you (and others) would refrain from getting oppiniated and coming on just to blurt out how this wont make the game any more realistic in your oppinions or how it will ruin the game for you because, quite frankly, you never will be forced to play with it. Instead of complaining about a system you will not use, thus giving this forum bad reputation, (hiding other various game improvements that we can all agree would help the game, e.g. body armour simulation or no accumulating hitpoints to legs killing someone outright) please give feedback on the system that you will use and tell me how it could get better be constructive.

I understand how the advanced system will not be fully realistic in the sense it involves medics realistically trating someone, but then the patient will suddenly rise up and be good as new, thus contradicting any realism before hand but this is not the reason I am proposing an advanced system. The reason I am putting this idea out there is because although many players think that the current flow of combat in arma (while sped up with insane amounts of casualties :D) is realistic, it is missing some vital elements. "Find, fix, flank, finish" works well in theory, but what happens when ou come under fire? You obviously have break fire drills and each clan probably has their own variation of break fire manouvers, but what happens when someone gets hit?

In real life, ammunition is actually designed to cause extreme wounds rather than outright death. (Yet we have can't use hollow points because it is inhumane :j:) This is because a wounded soldier will require a combat effective soldier to tend to and trade the majority of his attention to the wounded soldier, thus slowing down his squad. It will put the team who inflicted the casualty at an advantage as the team with the casualty is now technically two men down. And in massive scale battles that only ever happen in vietnam and WWII movies (and real life :p) a wounded soldier will require two men to be carried off in a stretcher. While massive scale battles do not happen often in arma 2 (sometimes in warfare or MSO, mainly MSO), squad on squad certainly does happen and the idea that a wounded soldier is eqal to two men down will still apply with the advanced medical system. (although perhaps stretchers could be put in aswell :))

When it comes to potential problems with a system like this, I don't see what could really go wrong as long as BIS fix their netcode issues. ACE AI know how to treat a unit, the major issues in ACE wounds relating to AI could easilly be ironed out if ACE wounds were in vanilla arma 2 by BIS pre or post-release. Other issues like lag, warp and other stuff (this system on with arma2's engine would fail due to desync causing someone to be unable to treat someone else) will still be there if BIS decide not to work on their netcode issues but otherwise a system like this would go reasonably well, any bugs would eventually ironed out and AI would work well, rather than if the game was made by third-party addon makers.

Having multiple options of treatment would benifit arma because if the medic does something he shouldn't, he may kill or further wound the patient. This is so in AA3 (America's Army 3) and works very, very well. The ACE2 mod's wounding system also works quite well, and a cross between the ACE interface and the multiple treatment options/window for medic failure from AA3 would make a perfect wounding system. Now, some players may see this as a little set back if they at first beleive all the fancy language (believe me this is simple stuff if you are interested and easy to learn.) and some may see it is unneccesary, although I am going to suggest play ACE2 with ace_wounds activated, but every time you see the words bleeding, bandage, pain, morphine, unconscious, epinephrine, I would like to to replace those words with these:

bleeding - poisoned

bandage - antidote

pain - Low mana

morphine - mana potion

unconscious - possessed

epinephrine - revival herb

medkit - health potion

I bet playing like that with the whole dungens and dragons theme would have really screwed up any immersion the medic system would otherwise have, which is why I for one believe having realistic treatment names will just go to make arma 3 more realistic. And at the end of the day the simple system will still be an option (probably best if itis default and the advanced system is an option but either way they are both options) and any problems such as warping, lagging and other netcode related issues will not affect. Netcode needs to be fixed in the next game regardless of whethe the medic system is payed any attention to, and I for one have got my fingers crossed. :p

Edited May 25, 2011 by Tom1

[rye1 21]

Foxtrot litter stretcher by TacMed Solutions can be used by one man, you attach it over your body and just pull it with your body so apparently you can still have you weapon up but it rocks it quite a bit....

ACE wounds was a lot better, I agree. If BIS ironed out the bugs for them. :) Only problem I had was the use of epinephrine all the time, smelling salts could be semi-realistic like that and be used without actually using medication. I can't be bothered going into detail but great job by the ACE devs. IT certainly stopped us getting shot as much... :D

[Beagle 684]

Better simulation of Medevac and the whole logistics would indeed be very interesting. The measures and logitical steps involved are in every aspect equal to air operations or large Infanrty operations. It's a aspect can could indeed be very interesting ...but not from the perspective of the casualty.

[gus619 10]

Also an addition, some vehicles could have life support, call in a medevac for critical casualties that medic cannot fully resolve.

[Innomadic 10]

...but not from the perspective of the casualty.

i.e me, i always seem to get shot first, even if i'm pulling the rear of a formation...and shot again as i get up...thankfully dom is revive, but still, its irritating.

The good thing about this would be actually testing the skills of the pilots in landing in a hostile environment. Perhaps the heavily wounded player could simply respawn once taken to the correct spot so that he can keep playing?

I mean THATS not realistic, but you've still gone through the motions of a medevac, leaving a team 2-3 (depending on method of transport on foot) men down for a time. Make it challenging. So the best way this can be implemented is if the AI is tweaked so there aren't any BS kills. I think the entire level needs to be raised in terms of quality before we can fit this in without hassle.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Innomadic

[cas 41]

Ohhh nearly missed the discussion on my favorite topic......:)

I agree here is something where ARMA could stand out again and be the first to make revolutionary game play changes!

I hate this magic healing thing too and I agree that making the magic healing more complicated does not really help.

It should not be possible to heal in the field only stabilizing should be possible.

And no I do not like to play a incapacitated soldier but it should be possible to switch over to a new (AI) soldier while the AI overtakes the role of the wounded. Of course you do not have to you are free to continue with the wounded character - especially with minor injury.

You could eather bring a number of AI soldiers to the front or just deposit some at a base. The point system should be based on number of Soldiers wounded, killed or MIA.

The most important feature here would be the feature to not only drag but also Transport the dead and wounded.

It would put the player in the role to take care of all casualty's and to organize their treatment and extraction (possibly under fire).

I made several posts on this topic before.

here is one:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=106757

[PTV-Jobo 820]

Foxtrot litter stretcher by TacMed Solutions can be used by one man, you attach it over your body and just pull it with your body so apparently you can still have you weapon up but it rocks it quite a bit...

Funny enough I decided to Google that to see a picture and came across this:

I take it this isn't the "litter" you spoke of? :p

[rick rawlings 2]

I understand how you may not want this, but please remember that it [the advanced medical system] is not being forced upon you, but it is only an option for hardcore players who do enjoy the extra realism/challenge.

I would really appreciate it if you (and others) would refrain from getting oppiniated and coming on just to blurt out how this wont make the game any more realistic in your oppinions or how it will ruin the game for you because, quite frankly, you never will be forced to play with it. Instead of complaining about a system you will not use, thus giving this forum bad reputation, (hiding other various game improvements that we can all agree would help the game, e.g. body armour simulation or no accumulating hitpoints to legs killing someone outright) please give feedback on the system that you will use and tell me how it could get better be constructive.

First of all, I had no problem with your first post, you are free to post how you feel, it keeps things interesting if we don't censor ourselves too much beyond basic civility. Second of all, I have already said that an AA3 system would probably be fine as long as it wasn't too complicated, as that would just be something else that could go wrong. As I have stated before, I would have to play it at some point. In the western US, I usually have exactly 1 server with a decent ping/anybody on it/non-password protected/non-ace mod/non sahrani life. So if we split on simple vs complex med system, I would have exactly .5 servers to choose from. The one I have is usually a Domination server and I usually play as a medic and I can say that this advanced system would probably affect only 10% of the population, based on number of medic slots. It's a fine idea that I don't have any real problem with on paper, but my hopes for Arma III is that it will be Arma II done flawless. I would rather have a smaller feature set done well. Development on a medic system would take away from development of something else. I have bought in since Operation Flashpoint hoping that each version would live up to my hopes. I would love to see one version with a killer campaign, strong, tight multiplayer, convincing movement, clean interface and competent voice acting. Only at that point would I want development centered on more complexity.

Summing up:

I like the idea of an advanced medic system.

I would play it if available.

I would almost certainly enjoy it at least to some degree.

I do not think it is a good use of development time when there is so much else to shore up, especially since it impacts such a small number of players at any given time (and I would probably be one of them when playing online).

I also wanted new Star Wars movies. Sometimes wants should go unfulfilled.

Thanks,

RR

[OB1 10]

there's some pretty interesting ideas circulating... But if they added them all and injured soldier would take hours to recover..

there needs to be a balance..

It needs to be more penalizing than the current revive but I think there should be a level of severity where the casualty can be patched up and become combat effective again until more convenient treatment can be applied for a full recovery... like fore example limping around like in ghost recon..

As for more severe cases a medevac should be required, either by chopper or support vehicle. Recovery should be quick to prevent annoyance..

Treatment and severity should be dynamic so it is interesting and challenging every time.. As for how the medic treats the casualty I think there's plenty of good ideas already been said for that...