Realistic Wounds and treatment for ARMA 3

[Tom1 10]

Moved to http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?p=2016983#post2016983 as this thread is going off topic and has very misleading first 12 pages. Also New post updated heavilly.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Tom1

[Militant1006 11]

this has got to be in the running for most words in a single post, but anyway, I agree with you, aslong as this would be optional because I don't think most players could handle this.

[Tonmeister 14]

dude thats a friggen thesis. where's your conclusion section? that should summarize everything i'm not going to read

[max power 21]

Realistic wounds in the game would mean packing someone up and sending them to the hospital if they get shot. Everything between them getting shot and being taken out of play is just busywork. What I think you're describing, and I tell you now I only read the first 10th of your post, is a wound treatment minigame to keep the medic players occupied, which I think could be fun. It would also serve to differentiate the player roles a little more. Don't think it's realistic just because it has realistic sounding names and procedures, though. Acknowledging that there are tumbling or fragmenting round really does nothing to increase realism. The medic would be treating airway, breathing, circulation, shock, and trauma problems, as well as other problems which do not come up in video games. In its most basic form, stopping bleeding requires you simply to put a telfon dressing on the wound and apply pressure and bandages and keep adding them until the bleeding stops. Seems like a bit of a waste of time. So realism is not really your friend sometimes.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Max Power

[rye1 21]

Oh they could, it's not hard to learn. Memorise it and you're fine.

The only thing I would add is for this to work BIS must fix hitpoint locations. Construction, vehicular and soft tissue (human, animals) damage must be differentiated in the engine.

[smookie 11]

Brilliant idea. I would probably also vote for a weighting scale that you will have to use prior to gaming that will gather your weight and fat % so that it can simulate how far can you run without running short on breath!

[KorpeN 0]

I am very positive for a medic system like America'a Army 3. But too much realism destroys the gameplay experience and fun. Some things have to be simple.

[Militant1006 11]

don't see why there is negativity, he is suggesting something that could and probably would make the game more fun, and Ebolavirus, he actually did sum up a lot of the improvements that could be made near the bottom, keep an open mind, and if you don't want to read it cause it is too long, don't come here to post it, keep it to yourself.

Also a good idea would be getting rid of the wounded textures and adding a blood texture to a specific point where the soldier was hit, so it would be easy to determine how many times they were shot, where they were shot, possibly what caliber.

although all this is a good idea, it is still a game and would have to be simplified somewhat, but that doesn't mean that it should be so easy that everyone can learn how to be a medic instantly and maybe have more specialised people for the job that know the system, although if anyone here has played Americas Army 3 I thought that had a good wounding system, it doesn't tell you exactly what to do, but if you train on it for a little while you can become an expert.

[rye1 21]

Realistic wounds in the game would mean packing someone up and sending them to the hospital if they get shot. Everything between them getting shot and being taken out of play is just busywork. What I think you're describing, and I tell you now I only read the first 10th of your post, is a wound treatment minigame to keep the medic players occupied, which I think could be fun. It would also serve to differentiate the player roles a little more. Don't think it's realistic just because it has realistic sounding names and procedures, though. Acknowledging that there are tumbling or fragmenting round really does nothing to increase realism. The combat medic will not be performing surgery. He will be treating airway, breathing, circulation, shock, and trauma problems, as well as other problems which do not come up in video games.

Some combat medics have minor surgical kits, this doesn't mean they will be added but think along Arma 3's basis of future warfare. This will be important, especially in unconventional units.

No, hospital would not be involved, the medic could deal with the situation there and then - you wouldn't overcomplicate it and make it unplayable by sending them to the surgeon.

Tumbling and fragmenting causes more damage within soft tissue, common sense, it would make a difference and increase realism in terms of soft tissue wounding and damage.

No doubt it could be dumbed down and simplified for ease of gameplay.

[wiggum2 31]

I vote for medipacks !

[Tonmeister 14]

he actually did sum up a lot of the improvements that could be made near the bottom, keep an open mind, and if you don't want to read it cause it is too long, don't come here to post it, keep it to yourself.

Well Mr Sausage I never said anything negative about what was in the post, other that its a friggen thesis! And having READ it i agree with some of the points. So no i wont be keeping it to myself thankyou.

[max power 21]

Some combat medics have minor surgical kits, this doesn't mean they will be added but think along Arma 3's basis of future warfare. This will be important, especially in unconventional units.

No, hospital would not be involved, the medic could deal with the situation there and then - you wouldn't overcomplicate it and make it unplayable by sending them to the surgeon.

Tumbling and fragmenting causes more damage within soft tissue, common sense, it would make a difference and increase realism in terms of soft tissue wounding and damage.

No doubt it could be dumbed down and simplified for ease of gameplay.

I since changed my post. What I meant was that medics in the game probably won't be, because that involves stabilizing the patient, which would be its own minigame, then performing the surgery. I wasn't suggesting that the whatever they do be 'too realistic'. In fact, more than even basic realism in first aid would be boring. First aid- real first aid- is boring, trust me.

[11aTony 0]

I would certainly not like to see this.

[rye1 21]

I since changed my post. What I meant was that medics in the game probably won't be, because that involves stabilizing the patient, which would be its own minigame, then performing the surgery. I wasn't suggesting that the whatever they do be 'too realistic'. In fact, more than even basic realism in first aid would be boring. First aid- real first aid- is boring, trust me.

I've done First Aid. I don't believe in the minor surgery side of this, and Tom's thinking I do not believe is a mini-game but more of an interaction system based on giving the correct treatment through a menu - like AA3. Surgery would be more of, have a hemostat in your kit, this opens up the option to "clamp" a blood vessel or similar. If not you could use Quick Clot or similar. I do not 100% support this part of his thinking but it's a good idea.

First Aid would be clicking a resusitation button, the character performs basic CPR and Rescue Breaths and ta da. The medic role would be much more vital but still simple enough for anyone to use, more complicated methods might be diagnosising a patient once given signs and symptoms.

I support his thinking and I hope you all will also, even if you do not agree with all of the points stated.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Rye

[Militant1006 11]

dude thats a friggen thesis. where's your conclusion section? that should summarize everything i'm not going to read

You say that you never said anything negative, what I think is that you never said anything positive, there is nothing in your post that suggests being positive, and there are other ways you could have told him to include a summary without saying "friggen".

and Max, realistic wounds is actually fun in a game like arma to an extent, when you are playing multiplayer and someone is hit and they go "guys I need a revive" the response is "ok, i'll come and get you" then they are all fixed up with one buttom press, that is boring, when the medic has to deal with multiple injuries to stop the victim from dying, and trying to medevac under fire, it adds a whole new gameplay element, which I find very fun and I'm no wounding expert.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Militantsausage

[Tom1 10]

For everyone saying this is too complicated, these are the steps to treat a wounded comrade:

Drag to safety, apply field dressing, compress wound. If bleeding continues, apply a tourniquet and await a medic.

Seriously, a medics job is complicated, this is nowhere near as complicated. This is just apply specific treatment to different types of wounds that requires a little

a) practise or

b) prior knowledge

If a similar medical system like this was to be released with arma 3, it would be in the instruction manual. Rememebr this is a simulation game. Most extreme wounds can just be fixed by an ai medic if noone one your team is confident being a medic. Have to apply first aid, stabalise and continue to treat and examine casualties is very realistic compared to what we have now (and some alternatives like ACE and SLX).

@MaxPower I acknowledged that there are fragmenting and tumbling rounds because I have a fair bit of knowledge on the topic although I do not want to go over board in my first post with confusing stuff. My post may be long but it is very easy to understand.

Realistic wounds in the game would mean packing someone up and sending them to the hospital if they get shot.

Perhaps an advanced first aid module where a unit will still be required to go to a hospital after being stabilised would be fitting for us Warfare, CTI, MSO and COOP players?

I would like to ask everyone why they enjoy arma2?

Is it because of the realism? What makes it realistic? "The flow of combat and how it all plays out" is deffinitly the most common answer on the other ARMA3 threads (look for "am i the only one not liking this whole futuristic idea?" thread)

Well the flow of modern combat is heavilly effected by the status of the team members. Modern ammunition is actually intended to wound and not kill in order to slow down the enemy's manuevers and sen their morale to shit. A one hit, one kill system where no wounds (other than shaky aim from arm shots and borken legs from leg shots) are in the game and medics simply do something you would expect to only hear about in the bible when people with gun shot wounds to the legs are al of a sudden walking again is not realistic, it is my oppinion that an advanced medic system would be cool, but it is a fact that what we have now in vanilla arma 2 is unrealistic.

The ability to peform first aid (which ALL soldiers are trained in) and for medics to have a tougher, more realistic and immersive job would greatly increase realism. I am not saying it would have to be done my way, but an advanced, and yes, slightly complicated medical system would make the game a lot more realistic. And to be honest, if you don't want this because it is too complicated for YOU and you think it is just a game (rather than thinking it will decrease realism or have another constructive piece of critisism to give) and you would prefere to play a point and shoot, one shot kill fps, but on large maps, with vehicles and objectives, heavilly focused on team play rather than a full military simulation, then i would reccomend trying out BattleField 2, Project Reality. It is a great game.

I spent half the day just going through old first aid handbooks, research projects, PDFs, and other sourses to put this post together and make it really easy to understand for everyone rather than just chucking a heap of technical talk into the space of about a paragraph so everyone could read and hear my idea and oppinion. I do not appriciate these sorts of negative comments, if you don't like because you just don't like it, don't comment, if you don't think it will work and have a couple reasons why, please feel free to explain why in a nice tone and I will discuss.

@Max Power, when you say that anything more than simple first aid is boring, don't play as a medic :) As a general soldier you only need to know how to put a dressing on, put pressure on it if you have time and otherwise chuck on a tourniquet and let a medic handle it. Also, I mean this will be like an interactive menu like ACE, Project Reality (some PR medic screens have been shown) and other mods have, rather than a full mini game.

ONLY CONSTRUCTIVE CRITISIM PLEASE

Edited May 21, 2011 by Tom1

[max power 21]

I've done First Aid. I don't believe in the minor surgery side of this, and Tom's thinking I do not believe is a mini-game but more of an interaction system based on giving the correct treatment through a menu - like AA3. Surgery would be more of, have a hemostat in your kit, this opens up the option to "clamp" a blood vessel or similar. If not you could use Quick Clot or similar. I do not 100% support this part of his thinking but it's a good idea.

So you've clamped the blood vessel, now what? He gets up and starts running around the room, pwning newbs and so forth? There goes your realism.

and Max, realistic wounds is actually fun in a game like arma to an extent, when you are playing multiplayer and someone is hit and they go "guys I need a revive" the response is "ok, i'll come and get you" then they are all fixed up with one buttom press, that is boring, when the medic has to deal with multiple injuries to stop the victim from dying, and trying to medevac under fire, it adds a whole new gameplay element, which I find very fun and I'm no wounding expert.

Okay, so a guy needs a revive, so you run over to him and go to revive him and do the same 5 minute procedure you've done 1500 times before before he can actually get up and play again. Sounds so awesome. Wow, sucking chest wound... again. Blood loss, hypovolumic shock... no breathing. CPR, adrenaline, a flap-valve bandage, bandages, go get 'em tiger. Then the next guy. Unconscious, no breathing, gunshot wound. CPR, assisted breathing or compressions, bandages, go get em tiger. You could even have the awesomeness of using an AED. You could press a button to deploy a machine that will tell you if it can work or not. 'Shock advised. Stay clear.' or 'Shock not advised. Continue CPR.'

None of these people would be in any shape to fight afterward. I dunno, it seems like the system could be fun but it woudl take a lot of suspension of disbelief and a lot of careful planning by the developers to make it work without being silly.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Max Power

[wiggum2 31]

Makink the medic system that "realistic" and complex would only work if the rest of the game would also be that "realistic"...

So as long as ArmA3 will not be the perfect simulation of land warfare i doubt that we need such a complex first-aid system.

[max power 21]

Moreover, first aid is simply a set of procedures. There's not really any creativity involved. It would basically just involve you doing a list of instructions in order.

[rye1 21]

So you've clamped the blood vessel, now what? He gets up and starts running around the room, pwning newbs and so forth? There goes your realism.

You're statement has no sense. This medical system would be more realistic than the current, to state the idea has no realism is silly when comparing it to the current system. Scroll -> Revive -> the guy runs around the room shooting people. That isn't realism, this is a next step up - not 100% realistic but it's a simulation game not real life and I understand that.

You stopped the bleeding or partially stopped it. There may be a short recovery period before the person can get up and walk - who knows? If that's what you suggest then that's your idea. Ask the person who posted this not the person who wants to see it happen.

And as I say for the last time, I do not 100% agree with the surgery idea but everything else sounds good to me. It's about time the medical system got some love.

[Tonmeister 14]

you never said anything positive, there is nothing in your post that suggests being positive, and there are other ways you could have told him to include a summary without saying "friggen".

Ha. ok without placing my arm around your shoulder and saying "there there, even though i wasn't negative or positive, lets just leave it in the beige box mate."

indeed the level of knowledge require to effectively treat battlefield wounds could never really be matched within the scope of a virtual environment unless there was a feedback system that truthful to the full scope of medical treatment and patient responses. I personally don't see the role of having such a system in place, because the feedback system cannot be relied apon to give the administrator of dressings, drugs and other substances an adequate way of engaging with the type of wound he is attempting to treat and at the same time monitor if what he is doing is even appropriate for the task at hand. therefore a generalized system is adequate.

eb

[Tom1 10]

Look Max if you aren't going to be constructive then please leave this thread. This idea is more realistic than any other mod I have played, yet is still simple for players who wish to still have a little bit of un-realistic fun. I myself would rather have a fully realistic system where a wounded soldier is good as dead and needs to be taken to hospital and will not be capable of fighting again, but I relise this is deffinitly not everyone's cup of tea.

The fact that there are medics in this game means that some sort of medical treatment will be included. Many games like bad company, battlefield, medal of honor, even call of duty, have their own revive systems because that's what people want. Many people also like how ace has an extremely simple yet descriptive system that makes the game feel more immersive (even though bandages fix 50cal bleeding :D) and others enjoy norrin's revive script. What do they all hve in common? Revives.

This system would be more detailed and immersive, realistic and yet still simple for new players, while offering advanced players interested in a challenge exactly that, a challenge.

Please take your negative attitude elsewhere.

---------- Post added at 19:10 ---------- Previous post was at 19:05 ----------

indeed the level of knowledge require to effectively treat battlefield wounds could never really be matched within the scope of a virtual environment unless there was a feedback system that truthful to the full scope of medical treatment and patient responses. I personally don't see the role of having such a system in place, because the feedback system cannot be relied apon to give the administrator of dressings, drugs and other substances an adequate way of engaging with the type of wound he is attempting to treat and at the same time monitor if what he is doing is even appropriate for the task at hand. therefore a generalized system is adequate.

eb

ACE did this, just this system will have more treatment items and more states of injury. ACE worked really well, this is just another step up, while keeping the system really simple for new players but unlike ACE, it allows advanced players to have a challenge and more fun.

Cheers

[rye1 21]

And you could always make basic and advanced versions in modules.

[Maddmatt 1]

Going overboard with things like this just sucks the fun out of it.

For singleplayer, having to wait for a bot to revive you is frustrating. I'd rather just die and load a savegame. It seemed cool until I actually had to experience it in the early days of ACE and the ArmA 2 campaign.

A wounding system where you can drag wounded buddies and revive them is great in multiplayer because, in a way, it replaces the savegame system and gives a better sense of teamwork. But again, overcomplicating it kills the fun.

[rye1 21]

Singleplayer couldn't or wouldn't have to be as complicated, same with AI. You can't expect them to make human-level decisions. This is just a more realistic "revive" process. This is more than just a sense of teamwork, it makes the medic role vital.

You could easily simplify it with only a few commands.