Ragdolls = In .... Realistic wounds ???

[max power 21]

Ragdolls are definitely in with the new screen shots and the e3 video ^_^

[maddogx 13]

They also said there will be no dismemberment, since the devs aren't big fans of gore. :)

[MoS 0]

Ragdolls are definitely in with the new screen shots and the e3 video ^_^

Yep we´ve seen a bunch of soldiers get thrown away by a grenade and another soldier being shot from a roof.

You know that makes me wonder if bullets can knock down a guy onto the floor without killing him.

I guess most of you know that famous Iraq video where a US soldiers is hit by a sniper rifle bullet. He falls to the ground as the bullet hits his bulletproof vest but he gets up again and takes cover immediately.

Don´t you guys think too, that it would be awesome to see ragdoll kick in when you get hit by a bullet? Imagine this happening while in full movement. That could really enhance the feeling of shooting someone (as macabre as it may sound).

[rye1 21]

You know that makes me wonder if bullets can knock down a guy onto the floor without killing him.

I guess most of you know that famous Iraq video where a US soldiers is hit by a sniper rifle bullet. He falls to the ground as the bullet hits his bulletproof vest but he gets up again and takes cover immediately.

It hit his vest (trauma plates) and dispersed all the energy into it. The energy had enough power to knock him down (it can put you off balance), he had bruises in his interview afterwards. This was not a projectile entering soft tissue; there would be different effects if it did.

[MoS 0]

It hit his vest (trauma plates) and dispersed all the energy into it. The energy had enough power to knock him down (it can put you off balance), he had bruises in his interview afterwards. This was not a projectile entering soft tissue; there would be different effects if it did.

Sure the whole energy wouldn´t be transfered into the body if it went through, but I guess the result would be the same for every person being hit by a bullet -> falling onto the ground. I guess such a feature wouldn´t be as sophisticated anyway to be able to make differences between vest hit, flesh wound or grazing shot (I´ve actually never seen the word grazing but hey thanks google translator *g*).

[rye1 21]

Yeah, their muscles may seize, they will be in a lot of pain (usually, unless HIGH), they may lose balance or fall due to this - not the projectile itself. But I get where your coming from and it's not a bad idea. I'd like to see it differentiated though - that's the point.

The position the person is in when shot should have good affect on how they react, e.g. running they fall, crouched they may fall back onto their butt. And more animations like limping, crouched running (like they are injured) and holding the wound.

Grazing is not a bad idea but how rare would that be? :p And how to react from that? Holding the wound point?

[nodunit 397]

Oh it would be neat seeing some extension on the infantry damage model, say first you are able to run and job perfectly, or you are only able to jog, more or less dragging your feet, or you flat out can't use your leg.

[max power 21]

I think most of the time you see knock downs from bullets that don't his the CNS or some bone, the knock down effect is psychological. I can be punched or kicked in the ribs and have it leave a nasty mark but it doesn't cause me to fall off my feet. I think the pain and the surprise compels some people to fall down. I've seen video of some soldier get hit in the vest and fall down, then get back up again. I've also seen video of a soldier getting shot where he stands (assuming he was wearing ballistic plates, the video wasn't clear enough to specify whether he was actually injured) and he just bends down with his hands on his legs like he got kicked in the nuts. I think it depends on the person.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Max Power

[Innomadic 10]

Indeed it is mostly psychological, its the shock, however i think its also a bodily function where the sudden pain and bloodloss is enough for the body to shut down to protect the wound....or something....only did a bit of biology and a few references here and there on the net, but i think thats the logical outcome.

[rye1 21]

Psychological threshold and resilience factors are a major point in real life but in a game to be actually knocked down by a bullet, the physical force apparently knocking you down when hitting soft tissue is utter crap. Both videos you saw sound to me like they involved ballistic protection; with the pressure being spread out on the plate that would create enough force to move you, knock you off balance and possibly knock you down.

If they can break ribs, scar, tear and bruise skin when hitting ballistic plates then they can cause enough damage to be temporary out of action, winded and knocked down (some even knocked out cold; from the fall or whatever else). If you are in a vunerable position to begin with then there is more chance of this e.g. crouched and facing the target or off balance.

If it hit's the CNS then it's all over. Drop like liquid. Bone would increase the pain factor and may stop the person from being able to move or run therefore they would drop and this may look like the bullet did the knocking down.

You are looking to do maximum damage on the way to vitals, to then shut down the vitals, distrupt soft tissue, cause bleeding, create shock and lower blood pressure - that will stop the target. As soon as the bullet hits, if it follows these steps it will basically begin to shut down the human body and the person will drop; either there and then or over a very short period of time.

[dmarkwick 261]

I think most of the time you see knock downs from bullets that don't his the CNS or some bone, the knock down effect is psychological. I can be punched or kicked in the ribs and have it leave a nasty mark but it doesn't cause me to fall off my feet. I think the pain and the surprise compels some people to fall down. I've seen video of some soldier get hit in the vest and fall down, then get back up again. I've also seen video of a soldier getting shot where he stands (assuming he was wearing ballistic plates, the video wasn't clear enough to specify whether he was actually injured) and he just bends down with his hands on his legs like he got kicked in the nuts. I think it depends on the person.

I think it's more than that Max. I've seen several interviews with (WW2) veterans who were hit but not lethally, and their consistent impression was one of a body-wide *WHACK* followed by an involuntary fall. I think it's a basic physiological coping mechanism. In most cases they knew they were hit, but didn't know where they were hit until several seconds after. It was just a body-wide thudding sensation.

[rye1 21]

I think it's more than that Max. I've seen several interviews with (WW2) veterans who were hit but not lethally, and their consistent impression was one of a body-wide *WHACK* followed by an involuntary fall. I think it's a basic physiological coping mechanism. In most cases they knew they were hit, but didn't know where they were hit until several seconds after. It was just a body-wide thudding sensation.

Source? A wounded animal reacts the same way in some scenarios, but not all. Most videos I have seen of humans being hit by projectiles, no matter the distance or calibre (most seen have been 5.56+) they just drop like a sack of shit. But from what looks like sheer pain and seizing up of muscles like a cramping sensation. Might have to look into this stuff a little more... :rolleyes: More reading, God damn it.

[dmarkwick 261]

Source? A wounded animal reacts the same way in some scenarios, but not all. Most videos I have seen of humans being hit by projectiles, no matter the distance or calibre (most seen have been 5.56+) they just drop like a sack of shit. But from what looks like sheer pain and seizing up of muscles like a cramping sensation. Might have to look into this stuff a little more... :rolleyes: More reading, God damn it.

Source = any number of WW2 interview documentaries. :)

I should say that the falling is not due to pain or cramping, as they generally take a few seconds to kick in. The falling due to shot is quite instant.

[Innomadic 10]

Hmm, we should test this. Rye stand 20m over THERE....

[rye1 21]

Hmm, we should test this. Rye stand 20m over THERE....

For this... we need one WW2 veteran, a can of tuna and your uncles hunting rifle.

But seriously, I want some proper sources. :p Interview links please, I can't be bothered searching 1,000 youtube videos. I heard about guys surviving heavy calibre (12.7, 13) machine guns on D-Day but I have no sources, I'm sure the stories are out there somewhere.

[Innomadic 10]

For this... we need one WW2 veteran, a can of tuna and your uncles hunting rifle.

I got someone whose dad works in Security Contracting and owns an AR-15 (a relatively rare sight in Aus i believe), that help?

[dmarkwick 261]

But seriously, I want some proper sources. :p Interview links please, I can't be bothered searching 1,000 youtube videos.

Well I dislike sounding like a douche but I'm far too busy, and your assertations are just as subject to sourcing :) as neither of us is in the development loop with regard to this I suggest that neither viewpoint is any more valid than the other ;)

[rye1 21]

Well I dislike sounding like a douche but I'm far too busy, and your assertations are just as subject to sourcing :) as neither of us is in the development loop with regard to this I suggest that neither viewpoint is any more valid than the other ;)

Sources: Fackler and Gary K. Roberts readings. The only ones with proper protocols and scientific research put into their work. It's just I'm not going to go through the tonne of WW2 documentaries or interviews to find it, I was wondering if you had a link or at least a title. The only thing I know of from those readings that really takes down a target is good shots to the CNS... other than that lowering blood pressure and heavy blood loss to the point of incapacitation should do it. Falling down due to a shot may be because if hit the leg or foot that was running, any number of reasons.. pain can be one, unconsciousness, simply destroying soft tissue and muscles that stop mobility or fracturing bone.

Other than that they don't get thrown back. So I don't know otherwise how else they could actually be knocked down by the projectile itself.

What calibre and ranges are we talking about? Thump then several seconds later knowing they were shot, that's quite a delay. Amazing story that they survived in the first place. I wonder if the thump and involuntary fall was caused by where it actually hit, e.g. an organ, artery and reduced blood pressure rapidly or caused a lot of blood loss or it was something else like the temporary cavity or sonic pressure wave or maybe even non-wound ballistic related factors.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Rye

[dmarkwick 261]

There seems to be plenty of footage on those TV cop shows where perps get shot occasionally without being lethally injured. In every case I've seen, a perp who was shot and where the bullet penetrated, fell down like a sack of laundry :)

[rye1 21]

There seems to be plenty of footage on those TV cop shows where perps get shot occasionally without being lethally injured. In every case I've seen, a perp who was shot and where the bullet penetrated, fell down like a sack of laundry :)

Agreed and disagreed but you gotta love American Cop Shows.

That could well be a hollow point though, which it probably (90% sure!) is, with this type of ammunition you get a lot of expansion and weight retention as the peddles drag out. The peddles when fully expanded come out to that flower-like shape you normally see; that is a lot of expansion and it will take through some soft tissue and material through and possibly out the other end of the wound tract.

You see the same amount of energy between both hollow point and full metal jacket but hollow point allows this energy to be expanded before full metal jacket as it opens up shortly after it hits soft tissue - normally around 3 inches in. So as you can see a full metal jacket may go through-and-through therefore causing a minimal wound tract.

Bullets rarely expand symmetrically with one or two other peddles taking a different pass, the bullet may tumble which causes uneven drag on the peddles. This is great for a wound profile.

With hollow points you also get retarded expansion through material, it penetrates a lot more as the peddles do not open up and tend to get clogged or plugged up. This allows it to act more like a full metal jacket with a lot of penetration.

Plus on top of the fact you are at war, dying for a cause, full or adrenaline, drugs or alcohol - fighting the people you hate the most. Situations can't be put down to one happening; there are so many situations that can happen. It's just about finding the most common or likely and seeing that in-game.

---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:33 PM ----------

I got someone whose dad works in Security Contracting and owns an AR-15 (a relatively rare sight in Aus i believe), that help?

Perfect. We can 'borrow' that AR-15.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Rye
Read the post wrong.

[max power 21]

I think it's more than that Max. I've seen several interviews with (WW2) veterans who were hit but not lethally, and their consistent impression was one of a body-wide *WHACK* followed by an involuntary fall. I think it's a basic physiological coping mechanism. In most cases they knew they were hit, but didn't know where they were hit until several seconds after. It was just a body-wide thudding sensation.

Well, if that's true, then people should fall down every time. I can show you a bradley guncam video where several people are shot several times with a 7.62mm machinegun and they scatter and run away to presumably die off screen. No one fell down in that one, body-wide thudding sensation or not.

Regarding the handgun shootings, read the FBI meta-analysis study

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Max Power

[rye1 21]

May have collapsed due to incap, uncon, CNS hits etc. But you a projectile won't be the factor in putting you down. And, exactly, even in BHD when a .50 gunner shot a Somali man with a SLAP at 10M and the guy ran off.... then died in cover.

Plus when you think of cops and a suspect then that might of been the suspect's way of saying, look I give up or no more! :p In war it is kill or be killed.

Read it before but I gave it another read; Fackler writes brilliantly.

On-topic:

I saw the new videos of the E3 presentation of A3; I think physX will make wounding better and the animation system can easily tweak wounding depending on hit location. Should be better in A3.

If not I'm sure it can be modded that way; hopefully. But then again hopefully modders won't have to. I'd love to recognise them as injured (blood splatter, movement, facial expression and wound textures etc).

[PFC Magician 10]

Vbs2 is real simulation!!!!!

[dmarkwick 261]

Vbs2 is real simulation!!!!!

Welcome to the ArmA3 forum :)

[*LK1* 10]

voted for option 1. propably im sadic.