Libyan Air-force ordered to bomb protesters

[Big Mac 19]

I've shocked a lot of people who know me personally by saying this, but I personally believe this whole no fly zone is a perfect example of the US and other western countries sticking their nose into someone else's business just because the UN passes a resolution. I'm personally getting sick and tired of my country sticking their dicks where they don't belong.

[jw custom 56]

I've shocked a lot of people who know me personally by saying this

Not only those who know you personally.

[maturin 12]

I've shocked a lot of people who know me personally by saying this, but I personally believe this whole no fly zone is a perfect example of the US and other western countries sticking their nose into someone else's business just because the UN passes a resolution. I'm personally getting sick and tired of my country sticking their dicks where they don't belong.

Unless you want the U.S. to dismantle every single overseas military base (barring perhaps the U.K. and Germany) and cease all aid to foreign governments while rolling back all manner of treaties and pacts and business contracts for energy and defense companies, that's a pretty darn internally inconsistent position. How can you complain about us sticking our noses in places that already host several limbs?

[Spokesperson 0]

Well, ideally, the aerial bomb would never have been invented. I think humans should just never fight wars. We should make it illegal to break the law.

Such a complex view of the world you have.

And interesting that a month of civil war following the use of deadly force on non-violent protesters, with videos of bombs raining out of the sky, make Ghaddafi's killings 'alleged,' while there are no supports of civilian causalities from coalition forces so far, but you take those as a certainty.

No, what are you talking about? I'm highlighting western hypocrisy. But, you have to see the difference between words and intentions.

Deadly force has been used on demonstrators, in the beginning. But not from the air. And what's the difference between shooting demonstrators in the US, Bahrain, Saudia Arabia and Libya? Isn't a yemenite life worth as much as a libyan life? And what about the civilians that have been, and will be killed by the one-sided western intervention in the civil war?

Gaddafi is a genius and has my full support in what's going on (but I don't support him otherwise).

[Big Mac 19]

Unless you want the U.S. to dismantle every single overseas military base (barring perhaps the U.K. and Germany) and cease all aid to foreign governments while rolling back all manner of treaties and pacts and business contracts for energy and defense companies, that's a pretty darn internally inconsistent position. How can you complain about us sticking our noses in places that already host several limbs?

Why should the US who is coming out of one war and still fighting another snap to just because the UN says so? We gain nothing and it'll be mostly Americans doing the fighting and the dying to enforce this no fly zone and for what? Libya hasn't attacked the US in over 20 years and has pretty much behaved itself since we bombed them nearly 25 years ago. I don't see why Americans should have to fight and die for something that doesn't concern America.

[binkster 0]

IMO the UN maybe setting an example.... Maybe other countries will think twice before ordering to kill there own people?..

[Minutemen 10]

But all the hysterics of the anti-American kneejerks remind me of the Fox News demographics back home.

Anti-American? Is here anyone who believes, that these wars help the american people? Is there anyone who thinks that the populations of the western world profit from these wars? There will be no invasion? There are already forces in Lybia.

What did the founding fathers talk about? Non-intervention. If you want there ressources, trade with them, be friends and try to make this world a better place for us all.

That being against war is anti-america is complett bullshit. Only a complett fool that know nothing about history will talk like this.

The US are just some kind of corsair for big business syndicates. And they don't give a f*** about stars and stripes, they just use the stupid country asshole that is to stupid to know things as a battering ram.

And the new battering ram will be china, so better think about the role that america realy had in the modern world.

Maybe other countries will think twice before ordering to kill there own people?

You mean the north korean Government? Or the chinese Government? This isn't about stoping murder, this is about... lets call it "wipe out there competition".

Edited March 20, 2011 by Minutemen

[JdB 151]

How many of the tomahawks hit their targets? 110 rockets for 20 targets is a lot.

I'd say, as is the case with such precision munitions, over 90%. A "target" in real life isn't like a "target" in a game, where there is a nice house-sized shack with the [insert crucial-piece-of-equipment-that-when-destroyed-will-instantly-win-the-war-for-the-you of your choice] in it with a big bulls-eye painted on it when the player switches to his laser designator. The 20 targets were air defense installations. If these are anything like their NATO counterparts, they will be spread out over hundreds of square meters, if not several kilometers. A single Tomahawk isn't THAT powerful, so you'll need to fire more than one to take out the whole installation.

[jakerod 254]

Why should the US who is coming out of one war and still fighting another snap to just because the UN says so? We gain nothing and it'll be mostly Americans doing the fighting and the dying to enforce this no fly zone and for what? Libya hasn't attacked the US in over 20 years and has pretty much behaved itself since we bombed them nearly 25 years ago. I don't see why Americans should have to fight and die for something that doesn't concern America.

I recently read the book Shake Hands with the Devil by Romeo Dallaire who was the UN Commander in Rwanda during the genocide. What I gather from that book is that no country has to do what the U.N. wants it to do. More than likely, the United States is doing it because it thinks it benefits from it in some way whether it be us looking good to the Libyans or someone else or for oil. According to wikipedia's article on the topic, we, the United States, voted for it on the security council.

@Minutemen- you want us to listen to our founding fathers? The guys that created some document over 200 years ago? Had we listened to them in World War II, we probably would've been taken over by the nazis at some point. Had we listened to them in the cold war, we probably would've been taken by the soviets at some point. Even the founding fathers didn't listen to the founding fathers. I'm all for peace. Matter of fact, I was the guy defending the possibility of world peace in some thread some time ago. I don't totally agree with the intervention in Libya right now but then again I don't have as many facts as the guys making the decisions do, regardless of whether or not those facts are about civilian deaths or how badly we want oil. But going the route that our founding fathers wanted 200 years ago when they couldn't possibly predict the situations we would be in now is no way to run the country. Sticking to 200 year old ideals of men who formed a country, essentially so that they could have money (sound familiar?), will not take us anywhere good.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Jakerod

[Minutemen 10]

Had we listened to them in World War II,

Maybee you should listen to

in this case. Who build the Nazi Opel Blitz? Opel is General Motors. Many corporations gave licensing like that for synthetic rubber that was given them by ESSO.

Had we listened to them in the cold war, we probably would've been taken by the soviets at some point.

Who build the Gorky Plant in the Soviet Union? Ford Motor Company.

Goddamn read a book man. :rolleyes:

The guys that created some document over 200 years ago?

"some document over 200 years ago"

Have you ever read this document? There is no nation, except maybee switzerland, that has rights like this. I mean, we all have these rights automaticly as human beings, but there is no place in the world where there are freedoms like in the US. But we losing this freedoms because many people now are to stupid to read.

'It's just a goddamned piece of paper'

- G.W.Bush.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Minutemen

[ProfTournesol 956]

Funny to find that some are acting as if they were the spokesperson of the professional liar that Gaddafi is, and spread his lies on this forum.

By the way, no French plane has been destroyed, but who cares.

Who was the last supporter of Ben Ali before he fled ? Oh, i know, Gaddafi. But of course, what happened in Tunisia was also the hand of colonialism.

And about colonialism, Gaddafi was a great colonialist in Africa, for example he annexed a great part of the Tchad in 1973 or intervening in Ouganda in 1978 for supporting the great democrat Idi Amin Dada.

[jw custom 56]

Gaddafi is a genius and has my full support in what's going on (but I don't support him otherwise).

Good for you. So your supporting him in fighting al-qaeda or joing them, i mean he gotta decide :p

[Spokesperson 0]

France supported Ben Ali and offered help to crush the protests. Funny thing how they suddenly support "human rights" as they say.

Tunisia was not a colonialist operation because the people did everything themselves. In Libya a majority may still support Gaddaffi. And it won't matter a lot if they remove Ben Ali and put another guy there. They have to change the structure completely. It's just cosmetics like in Egypt. In 5 years people will see that nothing has happened. The third world economies are part of a global system. Their economic opportunities are limited. Wealth can't just be achieved by hoping to remove symbols of a capitalist regime. Capitalism, imperialism, and neo-colonialism is what separates the third world from progress, and the only way to ovcercome westenr expoloitation is to adopt an anti-imperialist stance and unite with other countries in a similar situation. In Latin America there's a start for a world wide opposition. Natural resources have been confiscated from a minoirty of foreign robbers and given back to the inhabitants. The economy of Venezuela has increased by about 100% in the past decade. That's what I call wealth and progress.

[ProfTournesol 956]

France supported Ben Ali and offered help to crush the protests. Funny thing how they suddenly support "human rights" as they say.

Absolutely untrue, you can't compare the position of a country and the clumsiness of a minister who resigned. But once again you don't care about truth and prefer to spread your "ready-to-think" mottos and "Chavesism". So i'm done with it.

[Spokesperson 0]

So ministers aren't representatives of their countries anymore?

And the support to Ben Ali was just thin air? He was never offered troops to keep order and things like that? And where were the french condemnations before the uprising there? Where are the french condemnations of Saudi Arabia? Honduras?

[Big Mac 19]

Where are the french condemnations of Saudi Arabia?

He does have a point. The Saudis if I remember correctly put down an uprising there brutally quick and no one so much as batted an eye lash..

[Colossus 2]

So ministers aren't representatives of their countries anymore?

Like any other human on this planet, they too have personal opinions which can contradict official policy. Besides, as far as I can remember the goverment of France, or any non-dictatorial goverment, does not involve just one minister and his opinion.

However, I do agree that there is a selective tone to the condemnation of the brutality, against the people involving the rebellions around the arab world, at the moment. It's common realpolitik. But if you want to look at the differences between Libya and the other countries under uprising, Libya is the only one where both parties (goverment & anti-goverment) have heavy military asset.

Edited March 20, 2011 by colossus

[celery 8]

I'm appalled that some people here are more worried about the possible hypocrisy of western politicians than what Gaddafi is doing and going to do to his citizens if unprevented.

I think that it's better that one massacre is prevented or brutal, insane dictator deposed than none at all, whatever the helpers' motives. Someone said that even the shining white knight rescues the princess for poontang and half the kingdom, and it doesn't make the deed any less good.

[Zipper5 74]

There's always those who feel the need to play the Anti-Christ just for the sake of playing the Anti-Christ, especially on the internet.

Well, I also presume Spokesperson's Russian, and his government abstained from the vote, so like the rest of us we feel an inclination or want to side with our governments. :)

I believe what we are doing is just. I fully support the UN in preventing the inevitable massacre of the Libyan people, and the aiding of the rebels in ousting a man who is quite clearly insane from his position of power. I find it very hard to believe someone defending a man who one minute says there are no protests in his country and no unrest, and the next is asking for safe passage to flee his own country. If anyone here needs to be paranoid about the liars in this, the first person you should be looking at is Gadhafi himself.

[Big Mac 19]

so like the rest of us we feel an inclination or want to side with our governments.

Not me. I personally believe it's none of our business. The US is recovering from one war and still fighting another and we're in serious financial and economical trouble. This is a Libyan problem that should be handled by the Libyans. The US can't play policeman of the world anymore.

I believe what we are doing is just. I fully support the UN in preventing the inevitable massacre of the Libyan people, and the aiding of the rebels in ousting a man who is quite clearly insane from his position of power. I find it very hard to believe someone defending a man who one minute says there are no protests in his country and no unrest, and the next is asking for safe passage to flee his own country. If anyone here needs to be paranoid about the liars in this, the first person you should be looking at is Gadhafi himself.

It maybe just but is it smart? How can you be sure that the next strong man to rise to power in Libya won't be twice as bad as Gadhafi? How do you know he won't turn Libya into the Iran of North Africa? Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know. Also what's to stop Libya from becoming another quagmire for the US like Iraq and Afghanistan are? I don't want to see any Americans killed just to please the UN. If the rest of the West wants to enforce this no fly zone then by all means have at it, but the US has it's own problems. In the end it'll be no different than the UN missions in Bosnia were; a total failure to uphold it's stated mandate. Edited March 20, 2011 by Big Mac

[jw custom 56]

Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know.

Yeah thats a great argument right there :eek:

[Big Mac 19]

Yeah thats a great argument right there :eek:

It's a pragmatic argument. The world knows that Gadhafi will do what's good for Gadhafi.

[jw custom 56]

Great thinking, it would probably be different if you were from a part of the world where you would be tortured/killed if you had your own opinion.

[Zipper5 74]

Compared to the roles of the French and British so far, the Americans are taking a comparative back-seat to this situation precisely because of the problems they know they have.

Backing out of this under the excuse that it's a Libyan problem would be just like backing out of Rwanda because it was a Rwandan problem. There is a significant chance here for a genocide of at least the people of Benghazi for being where the protests sprouted from which, don't forget, started peacefully until Gadhafi ordered his forces to start killing them.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Zipper5

[Tonci87 163]

Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know

Yeah right, it was a totally wrong decision of your ancestors to get rid of Hitler, at least everybody knew that he was a murderous psycho bastard. Who knows what kind of asshole could have got in charge after him....

See how stupid your argument is?