So Some guy in My town got arrested

[gossamersolid 155]

Why do these threads always get off topic because of some people with over-inflated opinions about politics. Go make your own thread!

[KEVINMGXP 20]

Why do these threads always get off topic because of some people with over-inflated opinions about politics. Go make your own thread!

if you can read it is dead on topic, towards the end :D its about collectors item guns confiscated :cool: that kind of weapons on the first page ;-) you might just want to skip the rest of it if not interested :p

[binkster 0]

Seems like any gun thread would turn into this with people from all over the world posting in these forums.

It always turns into this...

M16=West=Democracy=Freedom

Ak=East=Communism/Socialism=Oppression

In my opinion, I think Type of guns and Type of Government are West/East Cultures.

What works in the West works.... And what works in the East works.... Why debate over it when it seems now ITS CULTURE.

[Dosenmais 10]

It always turns into this...

M16=West=Democracy=Freedom

Ak=East=Communism/Socialism=Oppression

What Mambo Jambo do you talking about? Do you have read what people posting here? This isn't about what kind of guns or for what they stand.

You can't understand gun rights if you don't know anything about the political system.

Silly post. :rolleyes:

[binkster 0]

What Mambo Jambo do you talking about? Do you have read what people posting here? This isn't about what kind of guns or for what they stand.

You can't understand gun rights if you don't know anything about the political system.

Silly post. :rolleyes:

I wasnt posting what I think guns stand for.... I was saying what threads like this turn into.

I was actually answering Gossamers post regarding why these threads get off topic!!!

Which I stated above that people all over the world post here and that is just what happens....

Im sorry that was silly to you.

Edited December 31, 2010 by binkster

[WhoCares 0]

...

We have seen war, but have never seen war come to our own country

Which Army would be so stupid to invade a country where the population is well armed? Ecept the U.S.Army(Well, i guess thats irony)

And this is where I see the fundamental mistake in the 2nd Ammendment.

Instead of giving everybody a weapon or fifty, there should be a mandatory military service where everybody is trained for combat.

To a proper military unit, a trained lot of 500 or 1000 men is a much bigger thread than a mob of 10-50000 armed men. The way it is, a dictator that is backed by most of the regular military and police forces will have little to fear, no matter whether you have 1 or 100 guns in your basement.

But then, a trained and armed mob of 50000 might be too much of a threat to democratic governments :D

Similarly, if there was an invader capable to defeat the regular US military services in conventional warfare, it will change little if you are armed or not if you are not trained. I'm fairly certain, in the time it takes to train the new-raised troops the US-weapon industry would be able to hand every recruit a brand-new weapon without ever touching your private caches :p

[gossamersolid 155]

if you can read it is dead on topic, towards the end :D its about collectors item guns confiscated :cool: that kind of weapons on the first page ;-) you might just want to skip the rest of it if not interested :p

I'm aware of what the topic is supposed to be on, I started the topic lol.

[Dosenmais 10]

And this is where I see the fundamental mistake in the 2nd Ammendment.

Instead of giving everybody a weapon or fifty, there should be a mandatory military service where everybody is trained for combat.

That would be a draft. And who gives this "mandatory military service"? Let me guess... the gouvernment? And who sould pay for that? The Tax Payer? Total mindfuck, total anti-freedom. Sorry, but thats typical german obedient and the reason why german history have good soldiers, but less patriots.

Switzerland has a similar system as you describe, and look whats happen if the gouvernment controll military training. Now they must deliver ther ammonition. How would you use a gun without ammonition?

And what you mean with "trained"? Do you think the gouvernment would teach them to build self-made weapons and IEDs? Thats the tools you fight an occupation army. Regular battletactics for standing armys are worthless. Major v. Dach wrote a book serial about that.

There is no fundamental mistake in the secound Ammendment. What do you think they mean with "well regulated"? That dosn't mean "regulated by this and that", that mean regular armed and regular trained.

it will change little if you are armed or not if you are not trained.

Even non trained and bad equipped guerillia groups can bring regular troops in big trouble.

You need no super hardcore military to defend the own country. You need a military to invade another. And for that, a war draft is uneffektiv.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Dosenmais

[HyperU2 11]

than what about something like "white knights of christ" or other nazi-militas ? hiding in woods and "preparing for war for Christ and against Christ-killers commies" seeing enemy everywhere except swastika-tatooes religious guys ? fact that some cyco movements are armed in machineguns in forests do not give good view on USA

We can't really help it if some in the EU base their opinion on a country of 250 million on the actions of a few hundred people. So screw it.

[mosh 0]

We can't really help it if some in the EU base their opinion on a country of 250 million on the actions of a few hundred people. So screw it.

310,560,711 according to this and that's a damn good point.

If I didn't live here and know better, I'd be scared to live in most of your perceptions of the US too. :)

[Baff1 0]

I'm a lot more scared after having lived there, than I was before I went. It was a real eye opener.

American people are a lot more extremist than I had expected. It doesn't really come across in the movies.

---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:30 PM ----------

To a proper military unit, a trained lot of 500 or 1000 men is a much bigger thread than a mob of 10-50000 armed men. The way it is, a dictator that is backed by most of the regular military and police forces will have little to fear, no matter whether you have 1 or 100 guns in your basement.

But then, a trained and armed mob of 50000 might be too much of a threat to democratic governments :D

Any trained group of men that wishes to openly stand up and fight the U.S. government are either in the Russian Army or stupid.

Terrorism/guerilla tactics are the only successful military counters to overwhelming force.

A trained armed mob of 50,000 won't last very long against my country's government. They killed almost that many in single day at the Somme. And that was 100 years ago.

People would do well to just lump it with their current system of government in most cases I think. Unless they have already started shooting at thousands of you that is.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Baff1

[Dosenmais 10]

Terrorism/guerilla

whooooooaaaaaaatttt... ???

Terrorism? What kind of new speek attitude is that?

That remindes me in this recitation where they tell police officers, that the founding fathers were terrorists, because they fight the british. Terrorist sould be that new word for the 21 century. Terrorist, terrorists, evil terrorists.. blablablabla.

so bee pround of your f*****g gouvernment that kill so many people, because that is what gouvernment doing over all ages. Kill people! Do you think there is a militia, or even a "terrorist" group that kill 50.000 in one day?

A gouvernment is the most dangerous thing for human live ever.

A trained armed mob of 50,000 won't last very long against my country's government.

The militia isn't a armed mob. :rolleyes: Jezzzz, what stupid non-knowing conceivabilities have you people... Watching to many leftwing media the last time, hm?

Have you read anything about guerilla warfare? If there would be 50.000 armed people, your gouvernment is gone! Its over for them! They would need 250.000 troops at least to fight an guerilla force this size!

Man.. these coward attitude makes me so damn angry. People never read anything about 2nd amendment or these things but talk like the television.

Have you people just forgett how brutal and evil and out of controll gouvernment is? How many years the humanity lived in tyranny before?

But maybee is that the human being. To be cowardly and weak scum.

But i say No! No more!

[Baff1 0]

My government routinely fights guerilla armies of 50,000.

It has done, day in day out, for centuries now.

And it routinely does it with a vastly smaller army. Historically it has had the best results by outnumbering them 6-1 of course. They called it a winning Hearts and Minds campaign, but actually it had more in common with Stalin's Gulag tactics of dislocating entire population bases.

I can't remember the last time a government we support feel to a guerilla army. It hasn't happened in my lifetime.

Militia's make for 3rd rate fighting forces. They are more likely to shoot at their neighbouring militia than they are the government.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Baff1

[MehMan 0]

Man, I wanna lead a one man rebellion. Anybody wanna join? Well you can't, because you're just not cool enough.

[vilas 477]

310,560,711 according to this and that's a damn good point.

If I didn't live here and know better, I'd be scared to live in most of your perceptions of the US too. :)

cause the only information i have - are information from media (without people from US like here i would not have any other informations than media gives)

I wasnt posting what I think guns stand for.... I was saying what threads like this turn into.

I was actually answering Gossamers post regarding why these threads get off topic!!!

Which I stated above that people all over the world post here and that is just what happens....

Im sorry that was silly to you.

but your post about M16=democracy AK=opression (opression != socialism and socialism != opression)

could be understood in other way, maybe your irony on previous page was not enough shown as irony

but i understand what you say

even more , as in beginning i was thinking gun=cyco happy triggers , some voices here convinced me that maybe gun = democracy , cause governments will not respect anyone - who they not afraid of

in Russian there is proverb

u sylnovo vsegda bessylny vynovat - for strong always weak is guilty

so now i understand much more thanx to this topic

Edited January 3, 2011 by vilas

[Dosenmais 10]

My government routinely fights guerilla armies of 50,000.

Your government? Do you have a deed of ownership for this government?

Its not your government, its the government that owns you.

So. and show me just one case, where an government army vanquished an guerilla army.

[reconteam 19]

I really hope the Canadian government doesn't put all of those weapons to the torch. Didn't you guys do that with most of your old C1 rifles?

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Your government? Do you have a deed of ownership for this government?

Its not your government, its the government that owns you.

Jeez your an idiot. You know damn well what he meant.

[Beagle 684]

Your government? Do you have a deed of ownership for this government?

Its not your government, its the government that owns you.

So. and show me just one case, where an government army vanquished an guerilla army.

Thomas Münzer

Andreas Hofer

It is quite safe to say that uprising and guerillas in history only could succeed with the backup of foreign countries or powers

Nowadays it's even more complicates since Guerilas are calles terrorist, and most nations are earger to support something officially that is called terrorism by a major power.

(Chechnia)

Edited January 4, 2011 by Beagle

[vilas 477]

yes, for example my country was invaded in 1772-1795 and our country do not existed on maps till 1918

there were fights, uprisings etc.

but it was not terrorism, but fought for our homeland taken by 3 states , there also such thing not only in case of Chechnya told here, but also in Spain, Ulster, Taiwan etc. there are some movements that want independent state and own gov. even in US in 1864

but regarding what Dosenmais said - you know Darkhorse

maybe it looks other way in some countries and in some other

for example i can tell about some countries where citizens are only "to work hard for politicians cars and palaces and must obey"

in such case Dosenmais sentence is right, governments own people like you own your car, your TV, your phone

government do not ask you "do you want go and die" , just policians "want something" and you must die as soldier sent somewhere no matter if you want or not

you must pay taxes and get nothing for them (i remind that TAX is "kind of transaction" i give money to "state" and state gives me back services like ambulance, police, insurance, building roads , building hospitals, flats etc., but there are some countries where you pay tax and get nothing in reward , it sounds like "you payed for product , but you not received product from shopkeeper" )

so many countries work like this , people are "to work hard and die when needed"

you said that he sounds not right, but please look at so many countries in world, when gov. own men like things, in such case man cannot say "my gov" but more "my oppressor gov." and probably this he meant (saying that "if gov was my, i would decide, not 80% of population is against, but gov. do this like they want and like 20% wants" , in Poland 78% voters want capital punishment and 60% wants troops back from Iraq (politicians promise A and after election do B), and... we have lower sentences and spend bilion of money on war , so ... is it "my" gov. ?)

or maybe i misinterpreted him

Edited January 4, 2011 by vilas

[Dosenmais 10]

Jeez your an idiot. You know damn well what he meant.

Yeah, i'am an Idiot because i know how the role allocation is. Think about that before calling me an Idiot.

@Beagle

I know about the peasant wars in germany and the knight uprisings. But this wasn't an guerilla war as we know, because the peasants try to fight open battles like the landsknecht armys. Ofcourse they lost. The continental army lost also, when they fight like the british.

And south tyrol is something more... especial. There were always resistance against the italy government until 1961.

By the way get a little more back to topic. And by that, i don't mean talking about types of guns, i'am talking about the right to own a gun.(no i don't apply that for the IEDs)

[Baff1 0]

Your government? Do you have a deed of ownership for this government?

Its not your government, its the government that owns you.

So. and show me just one case, where an government army vanquished an guerilla army.

I own my government, my government owns me.

Either way it's still my government.

Stalins government vanquished quite a few guerilla armies. In Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for example.

The Russians even vanquished the Chechens second time round.

The Brits vanquished the Boers.

They also vanquished the Malayans, the Irish, the Welsh, the Scots, god knows how many Indian nations, native American nations, native African nations etc etc etc.

The Romans vanquished god knows how many too.

Sri Lanka recently vanquished the Tamil Tigers.

Famously, the Americans failed to vanquish the Vietcong. Hence the modern conceit that a guerilla army cannot be defeated.

This adage is not reflected in history however, just American pride.

We call our tactic for defeating guerilla armies a "hearts and minds" campaign. The strategy is to deny them their homes.

We do this either by a charm offensive perverting the loyalties of the locals to our side, or by dislocating the population. Forceably removing entire towns and villages so that armies hiding in the woods no longer have a support base for food, funds or recruitment. c.f. Fallujah.

Otherways we can do this is to graft in friendly populations to regions we seek to control. This is how Saddam won Mosul off the Kurds for example. He just sent a load of Sunni settlers there until there were so many of them that domestic support in the region was in his favour not against.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Baff1

[Dosenmais 10]

Stalins government vanquished quite a few guerilla armies. In Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for example.

And Ukraine and Ungarn and so on. I know that. But don't forget that the western nations, the so called allies, betray these people and the military industrial complex continuing to giving Arms and Technologie to the Soviet Union. And for these partisan groups, it was realy the worst, worst, even worse case scenario. There was no population that could support them, because these countrys suffer from the deprivations of the war.

The Brits vanquished the Boers.

The Boers defeat the British and founding south-afrika.

The Romans vanquished god knows how many too.

The Romans defeat so many other great civilisations. The Carthaginian, the Greeks and other. They also could defeat the celtic tribes, because they fight open battles. But when the germanic tribes start an guerilla war, they start to lose. A standing army is like a broad sword, but an guerilla group is more like a dagger.

And i'am talking about real, natural grown resistance and not about CIA made Groups like the chechen mujahideen or the UCK. Many of these conflicts are staged conflicts.

We call our tactic for defeating guerilla armies a "hearts and minds" campaign. The strategy is to deny them their homes.

Well, maybee you sould look after the cases in history, where standing armys defeat natural grown resistance. It always happen with unbelievable brutality. The British took the boers into concentration camps, the british give the indians blanket with viruses, and so on. And resistance is viktory.

Maybee they kill you, but if you give up, they own you. And you can't sell people this "hearts and minds" bullshit. If you leave them alone, they can educe themself. Like it happen in lebanon before the IDF came in.

Winning hearts and mindes sounds sweat, but there is nothing behinde it. Do you think the american troops would give the iraqis or the afghans copys of the u.s. constitution? Or they tell them, that they have god given rights or they have rights just because being an human? Or that they have a right of property and selfdefence?

No. They tell them something about democratie, when realy many of the founding fathers hated the concept of democratie, what means nothing more than an dictatorship of the majority.

This isn't about giving freedom, its about giving a different kind of tyranny.

He just sent a load of Sunni settlers there until there were so many of them that domestic support in the region was in his favour not against.

Well, and invasions must not always armed.

[Baff1 0]

I agree. Perhaps the most intresting invasion of my country was by the Germans, then called Saxons. They conquered half of Great Britain without so much as a fight. Did they even bring an army? I don't know.

And I concur that fighting wars involves brutality. But then, that comes as no surprise to anyone.

Winning Do you think the american troops would give the iraqis or the afghans copys of the u.s. constitution? Or they tell them, that they have god given rights or they have rights just because being an human? Or that they have a right of property and selfdefence?

Americans being Americans, I expect this is exactly what they would do yes.

They are fanatics for that sort of thing. It's like a religion to them.

...and if you are a heretic, they may just kill you.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Baff1

[Dosenmais 10]

I agree. Perhaps the most intresting invasion of my country was by the Germans, then called Saxons.

Hey Buddy, they are still there. And they are your lords and masters.

The british royal family's name is not Windsor, its Saxon-Coburg Gotha.

You guys are the property of a bunch of Hitler Groupies and a murderous old woman.

Winning Do you think the american troops would give the iraqis or the afghans copys of the u.s. constitution? Or they tell them, that they have god given rights or they have rights just because being an human? Or that they have a right of property and selfdefence?

Americans being Americans, I expect this is exactly what they would do yes.

Are you kidding me or you have not understand what we dealing with?

The ruling class that occupation the u.s. would never allowed, that one country would again rise against tyranny like the american people did in 1776.

You talk foolish stuff about "american pride" and infact you know nothing about america. And this stuff is not just about america, its about freedom versus tyranny. And there is no cultural differential in it.